EPT[G] ZvP Basic 3 Base Opening against FFE - Page 4
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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EternalSC
Sweden313 Posts
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Twelve12
Australia268 Posts
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SelectStaR
United Kingdom129 Posts
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Crosswind
United States279 Posts
On the Tal'darim stargate game, as soon as you see void rays, you get corruptors. On the ...other map (last replay you link), you don't go spire tech. By my math, you either do this because you see a heavier stargate commital on the Tal'darim game, or because your third is way farther away from your nat in the tal'darim game, so you need corruptors to deal with harass. ...which is it? What motivates the decision to put down spire or not? Thanks. -Cross | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
On September 10 2011 00:27 Crosswind wrote: Royal, question on this opening vs. Stargate openers. On the Tal'darim stargate game, as soon as you see void rays, you get corruptors. On the ...other map (last replay you link), you don't go spire tech. By my math, you either do this because you see a heavier stargate commital on the Tal'darim game, or because your third is way farther away from your nat in the tal'darim game, so you need corruptors to deal with harass. ...which is it? What motivates the decision to put down spire or not? Thanks. -Cross If protoss decides to open with stargate there are many ways they can transition from there However you must determine which path they take very quickly first figure out if its a 2 base all-in or merely a way to take his third up fast if its early third u can just ignore few stargate units and brute force your way into kill his third or be even more greedy if its a 2 base all in you MUST know what type of all in it is if its double stargate you must have your hydra den stargate into robo tech means its better to throw down spire and be greedy for a little longer stargate into mass gateway all in means you should have about 1-2 more round of drones until you should start roach production + hydras production and yes the map can somewhat dictate what kind of tech you want to go for | ||
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bela.mervado
Hungary415 Posts
been trying this build in ladder with great success. practicing against comps, i was able to max at 11:50. for all the diamond noobs like i am, this is a great solid build to get our macro skills better. queen injects ftw! there are lots of small details that have to be worked out by practicing this build, like managing an even drone distribution and so on. thanks RoyalFlush, this stuff really helps. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I just find speedlings so absolutely important in PvZ against Protoss. I've been doing a more losira/nestea version of this, where what I do is- 14/14 (helps to scout, lets me hold 4 gates without roaches, good in general vs P) ~30-34 Hatch - 6:45 evo - 7:00 roach warren, put 3 back on gas, add another geyser - Hit 70 supply with drones - Figure out what's going on - if it's gateway, I put 1 spine up and start cranking out units. If it's stargate, I drone up and add a 2 spores, 1 for the more vulnerable bases. On a map like taldarim, I'll put 2-3 at the hatch since you can't get creep and queens over there. If it's DT I'll add spore to 3rd and at choke. - I don't start thinking about lair until 80ish supply. If no push is coming, usually because of DT or SG opening, I'll get lair and 4 gas. If it's gateway push, I'll hold the initial wave before getting lair, I have to make sure I can hold him before I make lair. Losira and Nestea generally don't make lair until past 100 supply. It's interesting what you say about getting lair, but then no ling speed, but I feel this leaves you way too vulnerable if Protoss doesn't FFE. | ||
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Templar.
Canada133 Posts
This build is specifically designed for a toss going FFE, you don't throw down your third hatch unless you scout hes going FFE. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 14 2011 16:20 Belial88 wrote: I feel no early ling speed from a 14/14 opening leaves you way too vulnerable if he doesn't FFE though. nah you can get ling speed before a possible 4 gate if he does do that. You really dont' need ling speed asap in zvp even if they are not Forge fe'ing. | ||
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Tschis
Brazil1511 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 14 2011 16:24 blade55555 wrote: nah you can get ling speed before a possible 4 gate if he does do that. You really dont' need ling speed asap in zvp even if they are not Forge fe'ing. Interesting. I'm now on going to try just 14 pool, and depending on if its FFE or 1 base, I'll throw down gas. OP, what do you think of the Nestea getting 100+ lair? I always assumed Zerg had a choice of either lair or third base, not both. | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
On September 15 2011 04:44 Belial88 wrote: Interesting. I'm now on going to try just 14 pool, and depending on if its FFE or 1 base, I'll throw down gas. OP, what do you think of the Nestea getting 100+ lair? I always assumed Zerg had a choice of either lair or third base, not both. You should def read the whole guide I explain why you need no ling speed and also I explain that Im well aware of nestea/losira 3 base build with late late lair. With good gas econ management you can perfectly go with my build to defend against anything protoss can throw at you when they FFE | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm just wondering about what you think of the nestea late lair. I mean, why do you think, they go late lair then if with good econ management you can still afford earlier lair? I do believe they open 14/14 in ZvP so maybe that's why. I always go super late lair (i already described what I do) and I find FFE easy to hold off. It kind of seems like this build is just the kryix style 3 base mass roach aggression like he did vs Hongun on terminus, which is hard for any P build to hold, but a macro P can definitely deal with. | ||
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RoyalFlush
Canada109 Posts
this build will have better early game econ and imo safer Nestea/Losira build heavily relies on zerg player being really good at knowing what protoss is doing My build is more forgiving in terms of being able to scout properly before anything can hit you and reacting to them properly Good example would be Nestea vs Huk in GSL all stars tournament. Nestea didnt know what HuK was doing until late where HuK opened dt and blink stalkers Even though he was making spores since he suspected dts, he cancelled spores since he saw stalkers warping in(because he suspected blink stalkers not both dts and blink) I prefer heavy scouting/ no surprises from protoss so thats why I do this build But if you are a good zerg who prefers taking risks and confident on assuming which build protoss is doing 100% of the time then I would recommand Nestea/Losira build | ||
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robbryjo
Germany60 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On September 15 2011 05:12 RoyalFlush wrote: Nestea/Losira build is more econ heavy opposed to my build this build will have better early game econ and imo safer Nestea/Losira build heavily relies on zerg player being really good at knowing what protoss is doing My build is more forgiving in terms of being able to scout properly before anything can hit you and reacting to them properly Good example would be Nestea vs Huk in GSL all stars tournament. Nestea didnt know what HuK was doing until late where HuK opened dt and blink stalkers Even though he was making spores since he suspected dts, he cancelled spores since he saw stalkers warping in(because he suspected blink stalkers not both dts and blink) I prefer heavy scouting/ no surprises from protoss so thats why I do this build But if you are a good zerg who prefers taking risks and confident on assuming which build protoss is doing 100% of the time then I would recommand Nestea/Losira build But why would you go Nestea style, when you can do YOUR style and be 100% safe against any hidden tech? I mean either way, you'll win against Protoss right? I just don't understand, I suppose, what the benefit of the Nestea style is then. I mean the way I played the Nestea style, I literally barely had enough money to hold off pushes, so I couldn't imagine trying to also get lair. A good blink push or 6 gate would take all my money, and if I had spent anything on spores because I thought it was DTs or something, I would lose and get overwhelmed. There's also some interesting things you can do where you go mass queen/spines and just drone up hardcore. You'll be completely safe against anything Protoss throws at you doing that, I think I stopped doing that because if Protoss went fast third I'd have a harder time pressuring him or keeping up if I took a 4th. Maybe the only difference is the ling speed ;/ | ||
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bmn
886 Posts
On September 15 2011 06:47 Belial88 wrote: But why would you go Nestea style, when you can do YOUR style and be 100% safe against any hidden tech? I mean either way, you'll win against Protoss right? I just don't understand, I suppose, what the benefit of the Nestea style is then. No, it's not "either way, you'll win against Protoss" -- FFE isn't a build order loss. And your statement cuts either way, if you win "either way", then why would you do this, what is the benefit of this style? If you win either way, it does not matter. Nestea's style is more economy heavy and gives you a stronger late-game the longer the opponent waits before pushing out. It's more demanding in getting the timing right to start building units, but once you're in army production mode, you have a more solid economy to back it up. Edit: Also, to quote your comment from another thread: I just envision a day. That is all. Because if Zerg knows what P is opening, and he goes third hatch vs FFE, there is no way he can lose. If it is that easy, there's no point in debating the details of what to do, just get a fast third and scout, free win! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
No, it's not "either way, you'll win against Protoss" -- FFE isn't a build order loss. It kind of is. FFE only beats fast third if they surprise you with what they do, but with good scouting - which, granted, can very well be denied and faked out, there is no way for FFE 2 base timing to hurt you (it even holds 6 gate blink and 7 gate and 6 gate +1, as we saw in the GSL recently). If the most aggressive of aggressive 2 base all-ins from FFE can't even punish you, then it's a weak build. Of course, if you waste the money/drones on 4 drones for spores expecting SG, and it's mass gate, you'll almost guaranteed to lose, as it's all very tight (the macro, money, etc). If it is that easy, there's no point in debating the details of what to do, just get a fast third and scout, free win! Good point. In light of this thread, I'm going 14h/15p in ZvP, and upon my drone scout finding P, I'll either get gas immediately for ling speed (against 1 base play so I can hold 4 gate roachless, or put on aggression or counterattack if they pressure, or win against 2 gate) or not if they went FFE, and then get lair eventually. There's a reason Nestea and Losira go fast third vs FFE, and always win (unless surprised by lack of scouting), and the reason they ever get surprised is due to their speedling opening in ZvP (Huk vs Nestea is the only example I can think of, and that was an extreme surprise with blink + dt). I always assumed it was either fast third vs lair, but I guess if you aren't getting ling speed, you can get a faster lair. | ||
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