Hey TL Family! Im a season 3 GM Zerg player RoyalFlush. This is my first attempt at sharing my 'build' with you all. So be patient with me and have fun!
This is a general Guideline to help Zergs who are having the most trouble against Protoss' FFE style of play. This is an opening I have been playing around with and been working on over the last few months. I feel that this opening deals with any type of FFE build protoss can throw at zerg.
This build is to make sure that you can survive the early-mid game against protoss so that zerg can continue the game with an economical advantage into mid-late game. Hopefully this thread will cover many standard 2 base timing attacks protoss can throw at you. There is already a standard 3 base type of play we have been seeing from GSL where Nestea and Losira have demonstrated for us, where they stay in a hatchery tech for a long time with no gas until about late 45-60 workers. However, I feel that with this type of play there is no effective way to punish greedy protoss players until way later. This opening will allow zerg players to have an option to punish protoss players who are planning on taking their third and fourth bases too quickly.
14 Pool (This step is your choice. Any pool between 10-14 pool will be fine ex.10 overpool. If you dont want your opponent to open nexus before forge, I recommond 10 overpool) 16 Overlord (your first overlord should be positioned behind protoss' natural mineral lines to see when they take gases. The second overlord should be on top of you natural hatchery for cannon spotting and the third overlord should be headed towards your third hatch) @Spawning pool completion 4 zerglings and a queen (This step is really important. All zerglings have their own purposes; 1 for cybernetics core, forge spotting, 1 for scouting denying, 1-2 for xelnaga tower control, 1 for patrolling around your third hatch and possible proxy pylon locations) Natural Hatchery ASAP Second queen production after the first queen (When the second queen spawns, she will lay down a creep tumor to connect creep between your main base and your natual) 24 Overlord Third Hatchery ASAP (a drone should be heading towards the third hatch location when u have 100 minerals with no larvae left. Third queen should be in production as soon as the third hatch completes) 2 gas @30-32 Food (you will have 2 queens, 4 lings, and 24-26 drones before you throw down 2 gas) Evo Chamber @6:30 mark (this will be a precautionary evo chamber for stargate plays) @100 gas Lair @25/80 Lair stage, Roach warren (this is so that the roach warren will complete as the lair finishes) Third gas should start being mined as the lair finishes @Lair Completion 1.Burrow upgrade 2.Roach speed 3.Overseer production(SCOUT!!) (you should have just over 300 gas as the lair finishes. It will be about 7:30-8:00 in game time and your food count should be about 60 with about 50 drones at this point)
The idea behind this build is that you will be able to scout exactly what protoss is doing and able to defend against any rush appropriately. I will cover few standard 2 base timing attacks protoss can do. You should be able to hold off a lot of gateway rushes with roach burrow. 6 Gate rush: This is by far the hardest to defend with this opener. Your spotting ling should see if the cybernetics core is being chrono boosted the entire time or not as the earliest push can occur at 7:30-8:00 mark so you should adjust your roach warren timing accordingly. A standard 6 gate timing will be around 8:00-9:00 mark, which you will be able to scout with your overseer right before they move out and you should enough time to pump out enough roaches. DT rush: well... just make another overseer or two as soon as you see the dt shrine. You should be able to scout it before it hits you 7 Gate Blink: As soon as you scout with your overseer that hes going blink you will have enough time to pump out another round of drones before you should start making roaches. There are lots of variation with this build as they can go for +2 attack timing push or have an observer with the stalkers, but mass roaches should be able to crush these stalkers.(your spotter ling should also note if the forge is running or not since it can often be a good indicator that if protoss is doing a gateway pressure or not) Stargate Opening: Your overlord thats positioned behind protoss' natural expansion mineral lines should poke in a litlle bit right after cybernetics core is completed to see if they throw down a stargate. try not to lose that overlord! If you couldnt scout it, it's fine. A good tell that protoss is going something tech heavy(stargate or dt) is revealed by your spotter ling again! If you see no forge action or no chronoboost on cybernetics core, you should put down a safety spore crawler each base Fast third with sentry heavy 4/5/6 gates: get tunneling claws and go kill him! or you can just be extra greedy and tech up the choice is yours
Remember that this is just a general guideline to survive until mid game against protoss who went FFE. The build is very flexible and lets you go heavy econ so after you scout what protoss is doing, you can adjust your build accordingly. Im a huge fan of trading armies with protoss and denying their expansions as long as possible. Another thing! if you do it right you should be able to max at 12-13 min mark with just roaches, which then u can just go sauron zerg style. Hope this helps!!!
Now try to think of why we get ling speed in ZvP when they do a normal expansion may that be a 3 gate expo, 2gate/stargate expo or a dt expo. It's to scout and get the information on when protoss throws down the nexus or to see how many sentries they have and to scout their sim city etc etc and the ling speed will help tremendously against a possible 4 gate or a light gateway pressure. However against a FFE why do we need ling speed? protoss is confined by its own 2 base makes them immobile and lets zerg have map control without needing to have the ling speed. It is true that ling speed is handy all game long but we just do not need the ling speed early game at all. Since this strategy involves around getting key upgrades on roaches to survive many rushes protoss can do, there is little to no benefit we gain from getting ling speed until later on.
I have a question: I use to get the gas at around 40 food, I find that this allows me to max out as fast as possible while spending my money perfectly. For the record, in an ideal situation, i.e. no pressure at all, I can max out on speed +1 roaches in just over 12 minutes, with burrow and tunneling just around the corner. Is there any reason why you get the gases at 30-32 food specifically?
On August 28 2011 11:10 Qxz wrote: I have a question: I use to get the gas at around 40 food, I find that this allows me to max out as fast as possible while spending my money perfectly. For the record, in an ideal situation, i.e. no pressure at all, I can max out on speed +1 roaches in just over 12 minutes, with burrow and tunneling just around the corner. Is there any reason why you get the gases at 30-32 food specifically?
This opener is designed so that you can combat against 6-7 gate pressure with fast lair. By getting double gas at 30 food mark the timing works out nicely so that u will have roach burrow and overseer scout just in time before these attacks hit
This opening is also pretty weak against zealot/archon, especially if he goes Nexus first. You're taking gas too late and as such won't be able to get out enough hydras or infestors, which are absolutely required to beat zealot/archon. You can't do it with pure roach.
On August 28 2011 15:15 Xequecal wrote: This opening is also pretty weak against zealot/archon, especially if he goes Nexus first. You're taking gas too late and as such won't be able to get out enough hydras or infestors, which are absolutely required to beat zealot/archon. You can't do it with pure roach.
You should look at the fourth replay i have posted against Kowi He did chargelot archon against me and yes pure roaches can beat them and u can tech to infestors while holding the rush off and u do not need hydras...
I used to do exactly this, all the time versus Protoss. Problem with it is that it requires no skill what so ever, as you just spam roaches. If you're playing in a tournament, it's a great build to use whenever possible, but if you're playing on the ladder trying to become better, it's a terrible build.
I also find it hard to deal with void rays into colussus.
I watched about 4 of your replays and in all of them you only made mass roaches. My question is what if a protoss goes for a timing push like stalker/sentry/immortal to kill mass roach? I also noticed that you never got zergling speed in ANY of your games... I was a little confused by this...
You should look at the fourth replay i have posted against Kowi He did chargelot archon against me and yes pure roaches can beat them and u can tech to infestors while holding the rush off and u do not need hydras...
I don't think that's a great example, you won that game by literally 5-10 seconds. If that attack had been that much later he'd have had storm out to easily repel that attack and you would have been in a horrible position after losing your third. He also didn't Nexus first despite the fact that he easily could have after scouting your 14 pool. Do you normally skip ling speed too? I don't think you want to advise Zerg players to skip that.
On August 28 2011 15:40 Qxz wrote: This is incredibly strong in Diamond league. I'm at the point where everytime Protoss goes FFE I assume I'll win. And relatively easily at that.
:D
Same here. I'm glad for more fuel to the fire but I'm stuck in Dia cos I just can't figure out ZvT
Thanks for the guide RoyalFlush. Even though I just said I don't have much of a problem with Protoss- I'm still memorizing bits of this right now to help myself out even more. Now if only there were a distinctive ZvT guide that was less vague.
You should look at the fourth replay i have posted against Kowi He did chargelot archon against me and yes pure roaches can beat them and u can tech to infestors while holding the rush off and u do not need hydras...
I don't think that's a great example, you won that game by literally 5-10 seconds. If that attack had been that much later he'd have had storm out to easily repel that attack and you would have been in a horrible position after losing your third. He also didn't Nexus first despite the fact that he easily could have after scouting your 14 pool. Do you normally skip ling speed too? I don't think you want to advise Zerg players to skip that.
Yes that is something in starcraft that you might find to be an AMAZING new idea... it's called TIMING !! YES TIMING!!! LIke when the evil scary terran stim pushes you 15 seconds before your mutas pop and you are like WOW if he had waited 15 seconds This wouldve been totally different!!!
Also All this " what if he did this" or "what if he did that" is just silly ...
When you are playing starcraft you do this thing called scouting. When you scout you learn what your oppenent is doing and can adjust accordingly.
This build is not for EVERY ZVP you play You Scout a FFE and you adjust into this build because the protoss isnt going to be able to do much of anything, and by reading the tells of his build and scouting properly you can basically tell what is coming and adjust.
In most of these replays the protoss do a fairly standard FFE build Whitch is EXACTLY what flush is trying to show you.
If you really want to know how he handles every possible situation outside of the limited scope of the average standard FFE type of macro style Then get to GM status and play zvp until you learn them all.
He posted something that will definatively help alot of zerg players who are struggling against this type of play.
If you think you know a great deal better than him then this thread isnt for you and you should be spending your energy elsewhere thanks
on another note... These protoss are able to fight him well because... I MEAN JUST LOOK WHO THEY ARE! good lord I watched the series vs incontrol and it was 2-0...
First, thanks for posting this. It's succinct and full of some great information.
I have a couple questions:
1) You mention Nestea and Losira doing these builds against FFE (and I've been copying them as well with this). Someone did a nice analysis of each video that shows that each time they always get the evo between 6:45-6:55. Why do you recommend getting it at 6:30? It's something minor, but in my experience even the 6:45 time is INCREDIBLY worst-case-scenario. I find that +1 range lines up nicely with lair timing and gas consumption this way.
2) Have you found a good way to differentiate double from single Stargate play before the units are in your base? The best way I can find is if I can scout a stargate (off gas) and haven't been harassed immediately, but this is a shaky stop-gap solution, and I feel like there should be another tell I'm missing.
3) Although I've yet to encounter it in my own play, what spire timing would you look for against a robo play, and what can you find to give you that tell early on? How might gas timings differ from robo vs stargate. (I think the rarity of this would be more from the lack of harassment, but if it does happen, do I just laugh at it because I have 80 drones when he can push?)
4) How exactly do you control your lings for poking/scouting? For the probe contain ling, do you have him on a patrol route outside the natural ramp?
On August 28 2011 19:40 michaelhasanalias wrote: First, thanks for posting this. It's succinct and full of some great information.
I have a couple questions:
1) You mention Nestea and Losira doing these builds against FFE (and I've been copying them as well with this). Someone did a nice analysis of each video that shows that each time they always get the evo between 6:45-6:55. Why do you recommend getting it at 6:30? It's something minor, but in my experience even the 6:45 time is INCREDIBLY worst-case-scenario. I find that +1 range lines up nicely with lair timing and gas consumption this way.
2) Have you found a good way to differentiate double from single Stargate play before the units are in your base? The best way I can find is if I can scout a stargate (off gas) and haven't been harassed immediately, but this is a shaky stop-gap solution, and I feel like there should be another tell I'm missing.
3) Although I've yet to encounter it in my own play, what spire timing would you look for against a robo play, and what can you find to give you that tell early on? How might gas timings differ from robo vs stargate. (I think the rarity of this would be more from the lack of harassment, but if it does happen, do I just laugh at it because I have 80 drones when he can push?)
4) How exactly do you control your lings for poking/scouting? For the probe contain ling, do you have him on a patrol route outside the natural ramp?
Thanks again for posting.
Thanks for the input 1) Evo chamber timing can be delayed till 6:45 mark you are right 2) I will add more about double stargate play later but as soon as u scout with your overseer you will have more than enough time to throw down extra spores and a safety hydra den in time you will be able to spot the strategy before its too late. and you can always pick up hints by looking at protoss' cybernetics core and forge and their chronoboost patterns 3) robo plays come and hit way later than any other type of play whether it be a follow up off of a stargate play or a double robo play you will be able to scout it and prepare for it in time. Remember that this opener is really designed to defend properly against any sort of protoss ffe opener they can throw at you! After early-mid game you can adjust your build accordingly as this is a very flexible build. I will take all 6 gas and put down a spire immediately if i see that its a 2 base colossus voidray all in after a stargate play 4) you should have 1-2 lings sitting out side of protoss' base so 1 ling can chase a probe if it comes out and 1 for spotting important structures(forge Cybercore). It is very important that you pay attention to your minimap at all time for a possible probe sneakout and remember to have your lings on a hold position since your opponent will try to pull you lings into the cannon range!
Hey, one thing I have problems with when trying to punish a forge expand by taking a fast third, is on tal darim I always feel so risky taking a third base that fast because there are rocks blocking the safest expansion.
Do you have any specific deviation in your build that can kill those rocks in time, or do you have any good guidelines about where to take the third on this map?
On August 29 2011 03:38 Pandepic wrote: Hey, one thing I have problems with when trying to punish a forge expand by taking a fast third, is on tal darim I always feel so risky taking a third base that fast because there are rocks blocking the safest expansion.
Do you have any specific deviation in your build that can kill those rocks in time, or do you have any good guidelines about where to take the third on this map?
On August 29 2011 03:35 [EMP]ArtOfWar wrote: Checked a few of the replays. Not all of them. Anything where a protoss goes stargate od DTs against this? Because this is where it get's tricky uh?
Updates replays tags and added 1 more replay showing Taldarim and stargate play enjoy!
i watched the taldarim stargate replay and my question is when they're going stargate, would a protoss ever push out with ground units also, or is stargate too much of an investment to do so early on? and if so should my response just be drone drone drone and throw down some spores like you did?
edit: thanks for the guide! i myself am unsure on how to respond to ffe in terms of gas timings and amount of queens (i used to get the 3rd queen at my natural to start spreading creep and eventually heading to the 3rd"
Hi there, I wonder - since this strategy will be getting roaches in response to everything, and you can max out on them in 12-14mins (I think that's what I read in here somewhere), I have a question:
Is it possible to use this fast 3rd idea to max out on hydras instead - i.e. if left alone to drone or if stargate play? the 2 base hydra is very strong, is there a 3 base max out option?
On August 29 2011 06:22 Stardroid wrote: Hi there, I wonder - since this strategy will be getting roaches in response to everything, and you can max out on them in 12-14mins (I think that's what I read in here somewhere), I have a question:
Is it possible to use this fast 3rd idea to max out on hydras instead - i.e. if left alone to drone or if stargate play? the 2 base hydra is very strong, is there a 3 base max out option?
regards stardroid
There are a couple of problems with this, one of them being that hydras are the same supply as roaches but cost double the resources. It would take very long to max out on hydras. Furthermore, a maxed army of roaches is so strong because you can keep shoving them up your opponents ass and reinforce constantly because they cost so little. You're able to do this because roaches with speed and burrow can be hell for the opponent. Hydras are not nearly as fast and can't move while burrowed. Two base hydra is strong because you can hit a timing before your opponent has any colossi and beat him. However, doing a three base variation would allow your opponent to get out colossi, at which point hydras become terribly cost-ineffective. The idea behind mass roaches is just that you can eventually overwhelm your opponent. This idea worked in brood war as well because hydras were cheaper, but now it's not possible because of the cost/speed. Plus, they take longer to build than roaches, even though this isn't that big a deal. Roaches are just much better of a massing unit because they can survive for quite a long time and are very cheap. They seem to be the most "swarmy" unit that Zerg can muster.
So I would like to know how you open vs. 3 gate given this same initial opening. I am debating between your build and Blade's Korean delayed Lair play. My problem is this: your build tops out under 120 food (given no harass) at the 10 minute mark. With his build, you can get 130+ if you stay on top of your Ovies and Injects, but without Burrow or Glial in time for the 6/7 gate push. So I'd like to know how adaptable the opening is on maps such as Tal'Darim where you can't be sure to scout forge vs gate core opening until possible after the ideal gas timing for Lingspeed for 4 gate.
Furthermore, I saw you go Roach-Infestor-Ling, and I was wondering if you'd tried Roach-Hydra-Infestor with Neural for Colossi. Traditionall Colossi have been the problem with this build because Corrupters can't kill them fast enough. Infestors however are sneaky thieves.
Also i tried this build myself and got ~105 supply at 10:00 as opposed to what i used to do before (that offered ~80 supply at 10:00 with less upgrades)
I remember White-Ra was talking about PvZ and how this kind of 3 base response creates a very open timing window if the 2-baser decides to go for an early stargate and void ray or early blink stalker push.I also find FFE for protoss is very weak to an early nydus rush because our pylon spread is fairly concentrated near the front and parts of our base making large-base maps like Nerazim Crypt and shattered temple.
Been trying this the last couple of days and its great, I get amazed by how well speed +1 roaches hold off even mass blinker stalker pushes. Got a question , not really just for this strategy tho:p In the couple of zvp's i lost using this build the following would happen: He moves out with blink stalker or 6/7gate push, sees my army and retreats. At this point I feel way ahead because I got my third up and he doesn't, however, he responds by taking his own third and cannon'ing up. I take a fourth and get hive+spire to get infestors/bl out. At this point I got sooo many roaches and on a map like antiga shipyard I can't trade armies because I can't walk into the protoss nat/third. So what happens is, he gets collosus/voidray/gateway out while im maxed and at like 8k/3k. He demolishes me, and walks to my main, I can remax instantly but the unit comp doesnt even matter because everything gets picked off as they stream out of the hatches. How do you prevent a scenario like this from happening? This might be way too general and/or me getting simply outplayed, I dont know>< Thanks in advance tho <3
On August 30 2011 05:14 Sleight wrote: Dear Oh Highest of Poker Hands,
So I would like to know how you open vs. 3 gate given this same initial opening. I am debating between your build and Blade's Korean delayed Lair play. My problem is this: your build tops out under 120 food (given no harass) at the 10 minute mark. With his build, you can get 130+ if you stay on top of your Ovies and Injects, but without Burrow or Glial in time for the 6/7 gate push. So I'd like to know how adaptable the opening is on maps such as Tal'Darim where you can't be sure to scout forge vs gate core opening until possible after the ideal gas timing for Lingspeed for 4 gate.
Furthermore, I saw you go Roach-Infestor-Ling, and I was wondering if you'd tried Roach-Hydra-Infestor with Neural for Colossi. Traditionall Colossi have been the problem with this build because Corrupters can't kill them fast enough. Infestors however are sneaky thieves.
Cheers!
This opener can adapt to 4 gate or just standard gate opening as well. You need to scout it and as soon as you do you should put down spines. Since you will have higher influx of mineral income than your gas opening u will be able to put down more spines and make more lings against 4 gate pressure while you start mining gas immediately
I find lings are better than hydras generally they are way more mobile(good for counter attacks) and spend the influx of gas on teching up and getting more upgrades
On August 30 2011 05:19 SwampZero wrote: Do you ever drone scout vs Protoss?
I do drone scout occasionally There are several openings protoss can do such as 2gate opening into forge expansion or just a standard gate/core opening to harass zerg easy may that turn into a stargate expo/3gate expo or 4 gate is up for you to scout.
On August 30 2011 05:59 ZaaaaaM wrote: Been trying this the last couple of days and its great, I get amazed by how well speed +1 roaches hold off even mass blinker stalker pushes. Got a question , not really just for this strategy tho:p In the couple of zvp's i lost using this build the following would happen: He moves out with blink stalker or 6/7gate push, sees my army and retreats. At this point I feel way ahead because I got my third up and he doesn't, however, he responds by taking his own third and cannon'ing up. I take a fourth and get hive+spire to get infestors/bl out. At this point I got sooo many roaches and on a map like antiga shipyard I can't trade armies because I can't walk into the protoss nat/third. So what happens is, he gets collosus/voidray/gateway out while im maxed and at like 8k/3k. He demolishes me, and walks to my main, I can remax instantly but the unit comp doesnt even matter because everything gets picked off as they stream out of the hatches. How do you prevent a scenario like this from happening? This might be way too general and/or me getting simply outplayed, I dont know>< Thanks in advance tho <3
You should have been trading your army with protoss the whole time while you are teching up and taking more bases. An effective way to do this is to do multi pronged attacks and you might wanna get drop upgrades to be more effective at army trading/harassing
On August 30 2011 05:14 Sleight wrote: Dear Oh Highest of Poker Hands,
So I would like to know how you open vs. 3 gate given this same initial opening. I am debating between your build and Blade's Korean delayed Lair play. My problem is this: your build tops out under 120 food (given no harass) at the 10 minute mark. With his build, you can get 130+ if you stay on top of your Ovies and Injects, but without Burrow or Glial in time for the 6/7 gate push. So I'd like to know how adaptable the opening is on maps such as Tal'Darim where you can't be sure to scout forge vs gate core opening until possible after the ideal gas timing for Lingspeed for 4 gate.
Furthermore, I saw you go Roach-Infestor-Ling, and I was wondering if you'd tried Roach-Hydra-Infestor with Neural for Colossi. Traditionall Colossi have been the problem with this build because Corrupters can't kill them fast enough. Infestors however are sneaky thieves.
Cheers!
This opener can adapt to 4 gate or just standard gate opening as well. You need to scout it and as soon as you do you should put down spines. Since you will have higher influx of mineral income than your gas opening u will be able to put down more spines and make more lings against 4 gate pressure while you start mining gas immediately
I find lings are better than hydras generally they are way more mobile(good for counter attacks) and spend the influx of gas on teching up and getting more upgrades
You should have been trading your army with protoss the whole time while you are teching up and taking more bases. An effective way to do this is to do multi pronged attacks and you might wanna get drop upgrades to be more effective at army trading/harassing
Not exactly what I was asking with the first part of the question. Obviously a Zerg must scout the 4 gate. I assume you don't lay down your third against a non-FFE until they take their natural. So your plan is to use Spines and Slowlings to take out a 4gate?
This has been working really well for me. (Low masters, was mid, but havent played in 2 weeks on that account).
Roach/Infestor in general seems to work really well, and once broodlords are out, even better. Im really considering continuing with the use of blings. Bling drops plus this crazy roach style would be cool, and should be affordable off 3-4 bases.
I was practicing a few games last night against a friend doing an 8-9 gate all-in off FFE on shakuras.
He did something a little unorthodox, which is to put the cannon on the wall just above hte ramp, so that I can't poke without immediately losing the scouting ling.
I feel like this wall is highly susceptible to aggression, but I ended up deciding to just drone and keep my remaining few lings alive to spot for push. I used my OL to scout no gas on the natural, indicating to me at least a gateway push.
Do you think it's necessary to keep poking the front if you can get vision of the gas? What else can he possibly do off 2-base and 2-gas except a 6/7/8/9 gate push/all-in? Should I just sac the ling each time, and how often? every 30 seconds?
I would not sacrifice the ling imo but I would rather do an overlord sacrifice or an overseer scout right away to figure out what hes going for You will be able to assume small things from looking at his natural gas timing and what not if he has max of 2 gas mining u can basically negate some strats such as 2 stargate play, fast dt rush, 7 gate +2 blink stalkers all in and such 1 stargate play and faster gateway rush is most likely the case
This is an excellent guide, especially for people like me who are still stuck in diamond. It's nothing fancy, but it explains the essential timings and now i actually have a plan for responding to FFE instead of randomly making units and drones. The main disadvantage i can see to this is just that it won't work on some of the blizzard maps or will at least be made more difficult on some of the smaller ones like shattered temple and nezarim crypt. Also, on abyssal caverns, if you spawn close positions I feel that taking a fast 3rd is very risky since the only real option is very far away, making it extremely easy to harass once protoss gets their tech up.
How do you deal with the 3 zealot +1 weapon timing toss can do with a FFE? Hits around 6:45ish specifically to prevent a greedy third by a Zerg following a FFE.
It's outlined in Noumena's "ultimate solution" guide for reference.
Edit: "prevent a greedy third" is maybe a bit strong, but it does prevent mass droning while the toss climbs his preferred tech tree.
This looks awesome, and exactly what I'm looking for. I just have some questions (not questioning the validity of your guide), but maybe you can help me with this.
1. What should be your response against Protoss cheese, like a proxy 2-gate or something like that, or something wonky like a cannon rush?
Maybe I should have posted this in the Zerg Help Me thread, but I'm hoping that you can answer here. Please take into account that I'm a bronze noob.
i was planning on doing this in a game and the guy built a pylon and then a gate that he canceled in my nat which sucked. i suppose i should just ninja the third immediately.
This does surprisingly well against fast blink stalkers, I'm actually pretty surprised. What do you lose against most? I would assume either stargate or robo play?
I really, really like the overseer timing also. I've been getting a much later lair vs FFE, trying to do a more Nestea/Losira 1-gas style (more drones) but you have to scout with overlords and lings, which can leave you in the dark sometimes.
What if I can get hatch at around 16 supply (probe not blocking), is it worth getting, or better wait for queen/lings and only then? Pool is on 14 ofc.
thanks for the amazing guide! I have a question though, say you presumed your opponent was going forge first but then you found that he wasn't, how would you change your opening? I saw on page two you said about putting down spines for 4 gate etc, but i'm guessing you wouldn't take such an early third against 1 base would you? would you only take a third after you see him expand?
Royal, question on this opening vs. Stargate openers.
On the Tal'darim stargate game, as soon as you see void rays, you get corruptors. On the ...other map (last replay you link), you don't go spire tech.
By my math, you either do this because you see a heavier stargate commital on the Tal'darim game, or because your third is way farther away from your nat in the tal'darim game, so you need corruptors to deal with harass.
...which is it? What motivates the decision to put down spire or not?
On September 10 2011 00:27 Crosswind wrote: Royal, question on this opening vs. Stargate openers.
On the Tal'darim stargate game, as soon as you see void rays, you get corruptors. On the ...other map (last replay you link), you don't go spire tech.
By my math, you either do this because you see a heavier stargate commital on the Tal'darim game, or because your third is way farther away from your nat in the tal'darim game, so you need corruptors to deal with harass.
...which is it? What motivates the decision to put down spire or not?
Thanks.
-Cross
If protoss decides to open with stargate there are many ways they can transition from there However you must determine which path they take very quickly first figure out if its a 2 base all-in or merely a way to take his third up fast if its early third u can just ignore few stargate units and brute force your way into kill his third or be even more greedy if its a 2 base all in you MUST know what type of all in it is if its double stargate you must have your hydra den stargate into robo tech means its better to throw down spire and be greedy for a little longer stargate into mass gateway all in means you should have about 1-2 more round of drones until you should start roach production + hydras production and yes the map can somewhat dictate what kind of tech you want to go for
omg this is so great. been trying this build in ladder with great success. practicing against comps, i was able to max at 11:50. for all the diamond noobs like i am, this is a great solid build to get our macro skills better. queen injects ftw! there are lots of small details that have to be worked out by practicing this build, like managing an even drone distribution and so on.
Is it possible to do this build with a 14/14 speedling expand opening?
I just find speedlings so absolutely important in PvZ against Protoss. I've been doing a more losira/nestea version of this, where what I do is- 14/14 (helps to scout, lets me hold 4 gates without roaches, good in general vs P) ~30-34 Hatch - 6:45 evo - 7:00 roach warren, put 3 back on gas, add another geyser - Hit 70 supply with drones - Figure out what's going on - if it's gateway, I put 1 spine up and start cranking out units. If it's stargate, I drone up and add a 2 spores, 1 for the more vulnerable bases. On a map like taldarim, I'll put 2-3 at the hatch since you can't get creep and queens over there. If it's DT I'll add spore to 3rd and at choke. - I don't start thinking about lair until 80ish supply. If no push is coming, usually because of DT or SG opening, I'll get lair and 4 gas. If it's gateway push, I'll hold the initial wave before getting lair, I have to make sure I can hold him before I make lair.
Losira and Nestea generally don't make lair until past 100 supply. It's interesting what you say about getting lair, but then no ling speed, but I feel this leaves you way too vulnerable if Protoss doesn't FFE.
On September 14 2011 16:20 Belial88 wrote: I feel no early ling speed from a 14/14 opening leaves you way too vulnerable if he doesn't FFE though.
nah you can get ling speed before a possible 4 gate if he does do that. You really dont' need ling speed asap in zvp even if they are not Forge fe'ing.
On September 14 2011 16:20 Belial88 wrote: I feel no early ling speed from a 14/14 opening leaves you way too vulnerable if he doesn't FFE though.
nah you can get ling speed before a possible 4 gate if he does do that. You really dont' need ling speed asap in zvp even if they are not Forge fe'ing.
Interesting. I'm now on going to try just 14 pool, and depending on if its FFE or 1 base, I'll throw down gas.
OP, what do you think of the Nestea getting 100+ lair? I always assumed Zerg had a choice of either lair or third base, not both.
On September 14 2011 16:20 Belial88 wrote: I feel no early ling speed from a 14/14 opening leaves you way too vulnerable if he doesn't FFE though.
nah you can get ling speed before a possible 4 gate if he does do that. You really dont' need ling speed asap in zvp even if they are not Forge fe'ing.
Interesting. I'm now on going to try just 14 pool, and depending on if its FFE or 1 base, I'll throw down gas.
OP, what do you think of the Nestea getting 100+ lair? I always assumed Zerg had a choice of either lair or third base, not both.
You should def read the whole guide I explain why you need no ling speed and also I explain that Im well aware of nestea/losira 3 base build with late late lair. With good gas econ management you can perfectly go with my build to defend against anything protoss can throw at you when they FFE
^ Yea, I read the whole guide, I understand your reasoning about ling speed, I wasn't asking ling speed for FFE, I was wondering what if P didn't go FFE and blade answered it fine.
I'm just wondering about what you think of the nestea late lair. I mean, why do you think, they go late lair then if with good econ management you can still afford earlier lair? I do believe they open 14/14 in ZvP so maybe that's why.
I always go super late lair (i already described what I do) and I find FFE easy to hold off. It kind of seems like this build is just the kryix style 3 base mass roach aggression like he did vs Hongun on terminus, which is hard for any P build to hold, but a macro P can definitely deal with.
Nestea/Losira build is more econ heavy opposed to my build this build will have better early game econ and imo safer Nestea/Losira build heavily relies on zerg player being really good at knowing what protoss is doing My build is more forgiving in terms of being able to scout properly before anything can hit you and reacting to them properly Good example would be Nestea vs Huk in GSL all stars tournament. Nestea didnt know what HuK was doing until late where HuK opened dt and blink stalkers Even though he was making spores since he suspected dts, he cancelled spores since he saw stalkers warping in(because he suspected blink stalkers not both dts and blink) I prefer heavy scouting/ no surprises from protoss so thats why I do this build But if you are a good zerg who prefers taking risks and confident on assuming which build protoss is doing 100% of the time then I would recommand Nestea/Losira build
On September 15 2011 05:12 RoyalFlush wrote: Nestea/Losira build is more econ heavy opposed to my build this build will have better early game econ and imo safer Nestea/Losira build heavily relies on zerg player being really good at knowing what protoss is doing My build is more forgiving in terms of being able to scout properly before anything can hit you and reacting to them properly Good example would be Nestea vs Huk in GSL all stars tournament. Nestea didnt know what HuK was doing until late where HuK opened dt and blink stalkers Even though he was making spores since he suspected dts, he cancelled spores since he saw stalkers warping in(because he suspected blink stalkers not both dts and blink) I prefer heavy scouting/ no surprises from protoss so thats why I do this build But if you are a good zerg who prefers taking risks and confident on assuming which build protoss is doing 100% of the time then I would recommand Nestea/Losira build
But why would you go Nestea style, when you can do YOUR style and be 100% safe against any hidden tech? I mean either way, you'll win against Protoss right? I just don't understand, I suppose, what the benefit of the Nestea style is then.
I mean the way I played the Nestea style, I literally barely had enough money to hold off pushes, so I couldn't imagine trying to also get lair. A good blink push or 6 gate would take all my money, and if I had spent anything on spores because I thought it was DTs or something, I would lose and get overwhelmed.
There's also some interesting things you can do where you go mass queen/spines and just drone up hardcore. You'll be completely safe against anything Protoss throws at you doing that, I think I stopped doing that because if Protoss went fast third I'd have a harder time pressuring him or keeping up if I took a 4th.
On September 15 2011 05:12 RoyalFlush wrote: Nestea/Losira build is more econ heavy opposed to my build this build will have better early game econ and imo safer Nestea/Losira build heavily relies on zerg player being really good at knowing what protoss is doing My build is more forgiving in terms of being able to scout properly before anything can hit you and reacting to them properly Good example would be Nestea vs Huk in GSL all stars tournament. Nestea didnt know what HuK was doing until late where HuK opened dt and blink stalkers Even though he was making spores since he suspected dts, he cancelled spores since he saw stalkers warping in(because he suspected blink stalkers not both dts and blink) I prefer heavy scouting/ no surprises from protoss so thats why I do this build But if you are a good zerg who prefers taking risks and confident on assuming which build protoss is doing 100% of the time then I would recommand Nestea/Losira build
But why would you go Nestea style, when you can do YOUR style and be 100% safe against any hidden tech? I mean either way, you'll win against Protoss right? I just don't understand, I suppose, what the benefit of the Nestea style is then.
No, it's not "either way, you'll win against Protoss" -- FFE isn't a build order loss.
And your statement cuts either way, if you win "either way", then why would you do this, what is the benefit of this style? If you win either way, it does not matter.
Nestea's style is more economy heavy and gives you a stronger late-game the longer the opponent waits before pushing out. It's more demanding in getting the timing right to start building units, but once you're in army production mode, you have a more solid economy to back it up.
Edit: Also, to quote your comment from another thread:
I just envision a day. That is all. Because if Zerg knows what P is opening, and he goes third hatch vs FFE, there is no way he can lose.
If it is that easy, there's no point in debating the details of what to do, just get a fast third and scout, free win!
No, it's not "either way, you'll win against Protoss" -- FFE isn't a build order loss.
It kind of is. FFE only beats fast third if they surprise you with what they do, but with good scouting - which, granted, can very well be denied and faked out, there is no way for FFE 2 base timing to hurt you (it even holds 6 gate blink and 7 gate and 6 gate +1, as we saw in the GSL recently). If the most aggressive of aggressive 2 base all-ins from FFE can't even punish you, then it's a weak build.
Of course, if you waste the money/drones on 4 drones for spores expecting SG, and it's mass gate, you'll almost guaranteed to lose, as it's all very tight (the macro, money, etc).
If it is that easy, there's no point in debating the details of what to do, just get a fast third and scout, free win!
Good point. In light of this thread, I'm going 14h/15p in ZvP, and upon my drone scout finding P, I'll either get gas immediately for ling speed (against 1 base play so I can hold 4 gate roachless, or put on aggression or counterattack if they pressure, or win against 2 gate) or not if they went FFE, and then get lair eventually.
There's a reason Nestea and Losira go fast third vs FFE, and always win (unless surprised by lack of scouting), and the reason they ever get surprised is due to their speedling opening in ZvP (Huk vs Nestea is the only example I can think of, and that was an extreme surprise with blink + dt).
I always assumed it was either fast third vs lair, but I guess if you aren't getting ling speed, you can get a faster lair.
No, it's not "either way, you'll win against Protoss" -- FFE isn't a build order loss.
It kind of is. FFE only beats fast third if they surprise you with what they do, but with good scouting - which, granted, can very well be denied and faked out, there is no way for FFE 2 base timing to hurt you (it even holds 6 gate blink and 7 gate and 6 gate +1, as we saw in the GSL recently). If the most aggressive of aggressive 2 base all-ins from FFE can't even punish you, then it's a weak build.
Of course, if you waste the money/drones on 4 drones for spores expecting SG, and it's mass gate, you'll almost guaranteed to lose, as it's all very tight (the macro, money, etc).
If it is that easy, there's no point in debating the details of what to do, just get a fast third and scout, free win!
Good point. In light of this thread, I'm going 14h/15p in ZvP, and upon my drone scout finding P, I'll either get gas immediately for ling speed (against 1 base play so I can hold 4 gate roachless, or put on aggression or counterattack if they pressure, or win against 2 gate) or not if they went FFE, and then get lair eventually.
There's a reason Nestea and Losira go fast third vs FFE, and always win (unless surprised by lack of scouting), and the reason they ever get surprised is due to their speedling opening in ZvP (Huk vs Nestea is the only example I can think of, and that was an extreme surprise with blink + dt).
I always assumed it was either fast third vs lair, but I guess if you aren't getting ling speed, you can get a faster lair.
This is an INCREDIBLE oversimplification of the game. Fast thirds do NOT always win vs 2 base timings. The new Warp Prism 6gate seems to do very well vs fast thirds because they can perpetually wall of one of your bases without very nice preventative measures (re: Spore and Spines at third so army can defend main + nat), but it's REALLY hard to scout.
Stargate openers are WONDERFUL vs fast thirds, not because they kill them, but because they force a lot of Spores, Queens, and carefully posturing while Protoss can take third. Yes, certainly one can take a 4th and sometimes 5th vs. this but it's STILL an even game at that point.
Top Zergs loses games vs Protoss FFE all the time. Now because NesTea and Losira play a handful of televised matches a month and fewer than a third of them are vs. P, it might SEEM like they are unbeatable, but I assure you; the evidence that many Protoss are succeeding with FFE's means they absolutely are viable.
What IS fair to say is that traditional 6-7 gate all ins are no longer winning more games than they lose. Zergs are prepared and know what it takes to stop them. The idea that a fast 3 base economy somehow "solves" the ZvFFE matchup is unbelievable at best and absurdist at worst.
This is an INCREDIBLE oversimplification of the game. Fast thirds do NOT always win vs 2 base timings. The new Warp Prism 6gate seems to do very well vs fast thirds because they can perpetually wall of one of your bases without very nice preventative measures (re: Spore and Spines at third so army can defend main + nat), but it's REALLY hard to scout.
Stargate openers are WONDERFUL vs fast thirds, not because they kill them, but because they force a lot of Spores, Queens, and carefully posturing while Protoss can take third. Yes, certainly one can take a 4th and sometimes 5th vs. this but it's STILL an even game at that point.
If Zerg reacts properly, they will always be ahead. That said, Protoss can still deny scouting, and 3 base Protoss is really hard to deal with so if Protoss just grabs a third, even if Zerg is in a huge lead, Protoss can potentially still win if Zerg doesn't react properly.
But that's a lot of ifs, from a disadvantageous position.
Top Zergs loses games vs Protoss FFE all the time. Now because NesTea and Losira play a handful of televised matches a month and fewer than a third of them are vs. P, it might SEEM like they are unbeatable, but I assure you; the evidence that many Protoss are succeeding with FFE's means they absolutely are viable.
I have never seen a Zerg lose to Protoss FFE when they took a fast third and they scouted what was coming and - I don't even think I have to add this on, but I will anyways - they reacted properly. Same in my personal experience as well.
I have lost plenty of times doing a similar style to the OP, but not getting lair until very late, but it was always because I scouted wrong (double stargate cancel into single stargate, my mistake on not leaving overlord parked there, mass blink gateway when thinking DT).
the evidence that many Protoss are succeeding with FFE's means they absolutely are viable.
...but just because Protoss are winning games with coinflip, luck based builds doesn't mean it's a good build. Eventually 4 gate fakeouts of varying degrees were abandoned too. When you get down to it, if Zerg knows what's up and reacts properly, Protoss is in a huge disadvantage. Your basically hinging a build on hoping an overlord doesn't float in the right way when you have only 2 stalkers.
What IS fair to say is that traditional 6-7 gate all ins are no longer winning more games than they lose. Zergs are prepared and know what it takes to stop them. The idea that a fast 3 base economy somehow "solves" the ZvFFE matchup is unbelievable at best and absurdist at worst.
Okay. I can stop arguing and agree with that, even if I... you know, don't. (no sarcasm, I already made my point clear anyways).
FFE is never ever a bad strat/start in the first place theres a reason why more korean pros opt to go for this build than 3 gate expo/1gate expo Not only is it really good against zergs who cant defend properly against 2 base all ins but also it gives protoss an even footing with zerg in terms of econ if protoss goes nexus first, even with 3 bases of zerg, protoss will be ahead in harvestor count/econ until later on in the game the best follow up imo is stargate harass/4 gate/5gate into third base nothing zerg can really do to stop the third base from going up effectively and FFE is always a good way to throw zerg off with a different type of creative all ins(JYP did 6 voidray/3 gate all in which threw jookto off yesterday for example)
On August 28 2011 16:07 Nightbiscuit wrote: I used to do exactly this, all the time versus Protoss. Problem with it is that it requires no skill what so ever, as you just spam roaches. If you're playing in a tournament, it's a great build to use whenever possible, but if you're playing on the ladder trying to become better, it's a terrible build.
I also find it hard to deal with void rays into colussus.
What's the matter with it requiring no skill? I don't understand. To me that's like saying "I don't build gateways because too many people use gateway units." I just don't understand...
On September 20 2011 04:24 RoyalFlush wrote: FFE is never ever a bad strat/start in the first place theres a reason why more korean pros opt to go for this build than 3 gate expo/1gate expo Not only is it really good against zergs who cant defend properly against 2 base all ins but also it gives protoss an even footing with zerg in terms of econ if protoss goes nexus first, even with 3 bases of zerg, protoss will be ahead in harvestor count/econ until later on in the game the best follow up imo is stargate harass/4 gate/5gate into third base nothing zerg can really do to stop the third base from going up effectively and FFE is always a good way to throw zerg off with a different type of creative all ins(JYP did 6 voidray/3 gate all in which threw jookto off yesterday for example)
Zerg also used to never take a super fast third as a response to FFE, and just because most zergs are too bad to properly defend against 2 base all-ins doesn't mean it's a good build. Most people can't hold off a proper 4 gate even in masters, but that doesn't mean it's a good build.
I never said FFE is a good build because u can do 2 base all-in You should really really try to read and understand the whole post before responding Ive seen your posts in several threads just ranting without really thinking FFE is both economical and flexible It can open up to a lot of strategies(both strong macro games and strong all-ins) Just because you see good zergs dominating decent protoss when they FFE in GSL doesnt make it any less of a viable strat..
You said it was really good against Zerg's who can't defend against an all-in. I replied saying just because some people play bad, doesn't mean that's a good build (a ffe into 2 base all-in).
A 5 gate robo or harass into 5 gate (as you said) can be fine to take a fast third, but I personally don't think FFE is a good build. You can be as insulting as you want, I'm aware your GM, but it's my high masters opinion that FFE is not a good build, because if Zerg knows what you are doing they can always come out ahead. If you do a 2 base all-in, Zerg can hold it and be way ahead, if you do a macro build Zerg can take a 4th and get hive. Zerg can easily deny a fast third from protoss, such as the build described in the OP.
It seems the only way FFE really works in the GSL is when Zerg does not respond or scout correctly. There's nothing Protoss can do from a FFE where Zerg can't look at the situation and find a way to come out way ahead.
Of course, Protoss can attempt to metagame their opponent like Huk did to Nestea (make it look like mass blink stalker, even gets blink, but surprises him with DTs) or JYP did, but that isn't a reliable way to play. It's perfectly valid to do things like proxies or hidden tech, but it's not a reliable way to play.
Thank you so much for this build. I always had trouble knowing how long it is safe to drone against ffe. Last game I played protoss went double stargate and got me my pants down and killed my third, didn't matter thou since my eco had been so good. I just remade hatch, massed hydras and pushed, hydras died, massed roaches, his stalker colossi died, then again massed hydras and won the game :p. Gold/plat level just here but yeh it's working pretty well. Really liking this style just pushing and pushing with better eco but not really cost efficiently.
I still wonder so often why skipping ling speed in ZvP hasn't caught on more. This guide already detailed it quite well but still almost any zerg I play or see insists on having that first 100gas go to ling speed. With the current trend of protoss doing forms of +1 zealot attacks having early roaches is just so much better then having speedlings. The super fast speed and burrow isn't neccesarily needed most of the time but having quick access to roach is just pivotal yet rarely used. People still insist on speedling + slow roaches for holding most pushes for some reason while as a Protoss I find quick speedroaches far more threatening. Speed doesn't help lings beat +1 zealots at all, while a couple roaches can easily kill +1 zealots. Having speedroaches done by the time mass warpgate attacks come is also quite easy and just so effective. Teching faster lair by skipping speed also has the tremendous benefit of doing possible hydra pushes. I know hydra's are generally a sucky unit but since protoss players know this they tend to overmake compositions that are weak to hydra often. For example quick hydra's is actually quite a viable response to the now common +1 zealot + void pushes, you do require a bit of a good creepspread but when you have it you can defend the push and contain protoss to two base for a long time.
Wow, this is extremely similar to the build TangSC was talking about in his Macro ZvP lesson. I've started using it myself and find it to be extremely strong against FFE. I would like if the guide mentioned later stages though, like TangSC does. What are the options of transitions and are there tells what one should do, how does one handle warp prism harass, how should one react to colossus etc.
EPT
Im not sure if i should ever FFE u anymore :O
. Perhaps you could reupload some of them to a different site?
