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On September 17 2011 10:23 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +No, it's not "either way, you'll win against Protoss" -- FFE isn't a build order loss. It kind of is. FFE only beats fast third if they surprise you with what they do, but with good scouting - which, granted, can very well be denied and faked out, there is no way for FFE 2 base timing to hurt you (it even holds 6 gate blink and 7 gate and 6 gate +1, as we saw in the GSL recently). If the most aggressive of aggressive 2 base all-ins from FFE can't even punish you, then it's a weak build. Of course, if you waste the money/drones on 4 drones for spores expecting SG, and it's mass gate, you'll almost guaranteed to lose, as it's all very tight (the macro, money, etc). Show nested quote +If it is that easy, there's no point in debating the details of what to do, just get a fast third and scout, free win! Good point. In light of this thread, I'm going 14h/15p in ZvP, and upon my drone scout finding P, I'll either get gas immediately for ling speed (against 1 base play so I can hold 4 gate roachless, or put on aggression or counterattack if they pressure, or win against 2 gate) or not if they went FFE, and then get lair eventually. There's a reason Nestea and Losira go fast third vs FFE, and always win (unless surprised by lack of scouting), and the reason they ever get surprised is due to their speedling opening in ZvP (Huk vs Nestea is the only example I can think of, and that was an extreme surprise with blink + dt). I always assumed it was either fast third vs lair, but I guess if you aren't getting ling speed, you can get a faster lair.
This is an INCREDIBLE oversimplification of the game. Fast thirds do NOT always win vs 2 base timings. The new Warp Prism 6gate seems to do very well vs fast thirds because they can perpetually wall of one of your bases without very nice preventative measures (re: Spore and Spines at third so army can defend main + nat), but it's REALLY hard to scout.
Stargate openers are WONDERFUL vs fast thirds, not because they kill them, but because they force a lot of Spores, Queens, and carefully posturing while Protoss can take third. Yes, certainly one can take a 4th and sometimes 5th vs. this but it's STILL an even game at that point.
Top Zergs loses games vs Protoss FFE all the time. Now because NesTea and Losira play a handful of televised matches a month and fewer than a third of them are vs. P, it might SEEM like they are unbeatable, but I assure you; the evidence that many Protoss are succeeding with FFE's means they absolutely are viable.
What IS fair to say is that traditional 6-7 gate all ins are no longer winning more games than they lose. Zergs are prepared and know what it takes to stop them. The idea that a fast 3 base economy somehow "solves" the ZvFFE matchup is unbelievable at best and absurdist at worst.
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This is an INCREDIBLE oversimplification of the game. Fast thirds do NOT always win vs 2 base timings. The new Warp Prism 6gate seems to do very well vs fast thirds because they can perpetually wall of one of your bases without very nice preventative measures (re: Spore and Spines at third so army can defend main + nat), but it's REALLY hard to scout.
Stargate openers are WONDERFUL vs fast thirds, not because they kill them, but because they force a lot of Spores, Queens, and carefully posturing while Protoss can take third. Yes, certainly one can take a 4th and sometimes 5th vs. this but it's STILL an even game at that point.
If Zerg reacts properly, they will always be ahead. That said, Protoss can still deny scouting, and 3 base Protoss is really hard to deal with so if Protoss just grabs a third, even if Zerg is in a huge lead, Protoss can potentially still win if Zerg doesn't react properly.
But that's a lot of ifs, from a disadvantageous position.
Top Zergs loses games vs Protoss FFE all the time. Now because NesTea and Losira play a handful of televised matches a month and fewer than a third of them are vs. P, it might SEEM like they are unbeatable, but I assure you; the evidence that many Protoss are succeeding with FFE's means they absolutely are viable.
I have never seen a Zerg lose to Protoss FFE when they took a fast third and they scouted what was coming and - I don't even think I have to add this on, but I will anyways - they reacted properly. Same in my personal experience as well.
I have lost plenty of times doing a similar style to the OP, but not getting lair until very late, but it was always because I scouted wrong (double stargate cancel into single stargate, my mistake on not leaving overlord parked there, mass blink gateway when thinking DT).
the evidence that many Protoss are succeeding with FFE's means they absolutely are viable.
...but just because Protoss are winning games with coinflip, luck based builds doesn't mean it's a good build. Eventually 4 gate fakeouts of varying degrees were abandoned too. When you get down to it, if Zerg knows what's up and reacts properly, Protoss is in a huge disadvantage. Your basically hinging a build on hoping an overlord doesn't float in the right way when you have only 2 stalkers.
What IS fair to say is that traditional 6-7 gate all ins are no longer winning more games than they lose. Zergs are prepared and know what it takes to stop them. The idea that a fast 3 base economy somehow "solves" the ZvFFE matchup is unbelievable at best and absurdist at worst.
Okay. I can stop arguing and agree with that, even if I... you know, don't. (no sarcasm, I already made my point clear anyways).
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FFE is never ever a bad strat/start in the first place
theres a reason why more korean pros opt to go for this build than 3 gate expo/1gate expo
Not only is it really good against zergs who cant defend properly against 2 base all ins
but also it gives protoss an even footing with zerg in terms of econ
if protoss goes nexus first, even with 3 bases of zerg, protoss will be ahead in harvestor count/econ until later on in the game
the best follow up imo is stargate harass/4 gate/5gate into third base
nothing zerg can really do to stop the third base from going up effectively
and FFE is always a good way to throw zerg off with a different type of creative all ins(JYP did 6 voidray/3 gate all in which threw jookto off yesterday for example)
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On August 28 2011 16:07 Nightbiscuit wrote:
I used to do exactly this, all the time versus Protoss. Problem with it is that it requires no skill what so ever, as you just spam roaches. If you're playing in a tournament, it's a great build to use whenever possible, but if you're playing on the ladder trying to become better, it's a terrible build.
I also find it hard to deal with void rays into colussus.
What's the matter with it requiring no skill? I don't understand. To me that's like saying "I don't build gateways because too many people use gateway units." I just don't understand...
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On September 20 2011 04:24 RoyalFlush wrote:
FFE is never ever a bad strat/start in the first place
theres a reason why more korean pros opt to go for this build than 3 gate expo/1gate expo
Not only is it really good against zergs who cant defend properly against 2 base all ins
but also it gives protoss an even footing with zerg in terms of econ
if protoss goes nexus first, even with 3 bases of zerg, protoss will be ahead in harvestor count/econ until later on in the game
the best follow up imo is stargate harass/4 gate/5gate into third base
nothing zerg can really do to stop the third base from going up effectively
and FFE is always a good way to throw zerg off with a different type of creative all ins(JYP did 6 voidray/3 gate all in which threw jookto off yesterday for example)
Zerg also used to never take a super fast third as a response to FFE, and just because most zergs are too bad to properly defend against 2 base all-ins doesn't mean it's a good build. Most people can't hold off a proper 4 gate even in masters, but that doesn't mean it's a good build.
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I never said FFE is a good build because u can do 2 base all-in
You should really really try to read and understand the whole post before responding
Ive seen your posts in several threads just ranting without really thinking
FFE is both economical and flexible
It can open up to a lot of strategies(both strong macro games and strong all-ins)
Just because you see good zergs dominating decent protoss when they FFE in GSL doesnt make it any less of a viable strat..
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You said it was really good against Zerg's who can't defend against an all-in. I replied saying just because some people play bad, doesn't mean that's a good build (a ffe into 2 base all-in).
A 5 gate robo or harass into 5 gate (as you said) can be fine to take a fast third, but I personally don't think FFE is a good build. You can be as insulting as you want, I'm aware your GM, but it's my high masters opinion that FFE is not a good build, because if Zerg knows what you are doing they can always come out ahead. If you do a 2 base all-in, Zerg can hold it and be way ahead, if you do a macro build Zerg can take a 4th and get hive. Zerg can easily deny a fast third from protoss, such as the build described in the OP.
It seems the only way FFE really works in the GSL is when Zerg does not respond or scout correctly. There's nothing Protoss can do from a FFE where Zerg can't look at the situation and find a way to come out way ahead.
Of course, Protoss can attempt to metagame their opponent like Huk did to Nestea (make it look like mass blink stalker, even gets blink, but surprises him with DTs) or JYP did, but that isn't a reliable way to play. It's perfectly valid to do things like proxies or hidden tech, but it's not a reliable way to play.
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Wow Thanks so much!! Cant wait to check the reps!
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United States8477 Posts
Wow belial was obnoxious here
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Thank you so much for this build. I always had trouble knowing how long it is safe to drone against ffe. Last game I played protoss went double stargate and got me my pants down and killed my third, didn't matter thou since my eco had been so good. I just remade hatch, massed hydras and pushed, hydras died, massed roaches, his stalker colossi died, then again massed hydras and won the game :p. Gold/plat level just here but yeh it's working pretty well.
Really liking this style just pushing and pushing with better eco but not really cost efficiently.
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I still wonder so often why skipping ling speed in ZvP hasn't caught on more. This guide already detailed it quite well but still almost any zerg I play or see insists on having that first 100gas go to ling speed.
With the current trend of protoss doing forms of +1 zealot attacks having early roaches is just so much better then having speedlings. The super fast speed and burrow isn't neccesarily needed most of the time but having quick access to roach is just pivotal yet rarely used. People still insist on speedling + slow roaches for holding most pushes for some reason while as a Protoss I find quick speedroaches far more threatening.
Speed doesn't help lings beat +1 zealots at all, while a couple roaches can easily kill +1 zealots. Having speedroaches done by the time mass warpgate attacks come is also quite easy and just so effective.
Teching faster lair by skipping speed also has the tremendous benefit of doing possible hydra pushes. I know hydra's are generally a sucky unit but since protoss players know this they tend to overmake compositions that are weak to hydra often. For example quick hydra's is actually quite a viable response to the now common +1 zealot + void pushes, you do require a bit of a good creepspread but when you have it you can defend the push and contain protoss to two base for a long time.
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Thanks for the guide ! I'll try it tonight
Funny though that the only VOD available on your twitchtv profil is you losing with that same build xD
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Wow, this is extremely similar to the build TangSC was talking about in his Macro ZvP lesson. I've started using it myself and find it to be extremely strong against FFE. I would like if the guide mentioned later stages though, like TangSC does. What are the options of transitions and are there tells what one should do, how does one handle warp prism harass, how should one react to colossus etc.
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EPT
