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On January 24 2013 11:40 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:29 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, is it normal to be very rarely using your gateways on 2 bases? I find that I generally end up spending all my money on double Robo Colossus, upgrades (1 forge), and probes/pylons, while very rarely actually getting to build zealots. It seems to work pretty well, but it just seems...wrong. Once I take a third, I tend to add on a third robo when I'm about to reach the magic number of 8 Colossi, and then pump out Immortals, and that gives me the extra money to make Archons and Chargelots. But the end result is that I end up with a rather small, extremely gas-heavy army throughout the mid-game. Since people basically never attack me due to the Colossi defensive advantage, it's been working. But should it? Yes, that's the standard way to play PvP. Most of the time i go up to 4gate on 2 base PvP with double robo, but it's just for safety and u will hardly need to use it. You want to warp in as little units as possible so u can spend ur money on more expensive units, however u need to keep an eye on ur opponent's unit count and make sure he's doing the same thing before getting too greedy. If the game ends up being a very passive 3 base Pvp, then u want to end up with an army very similar if not identical to Rain's composition which u seem to be doing. Having those extra gates just allows u to warp in units if in danger (and eventually u want a ton of gates so u can reinforce with chargelots)
Once I get to my 3rd base around 140 supply i throw down a stargate and start teching to a mothership as well as maybe throw down a second forge. I just don't see the need to go triple robo. Once im maxed out i throw down gateways and a 3rd robo.
Also how do you pronounce your name (Ignorant American asking)? When it comes to reading people names i seem to fail really hard. I thought Ineversmile was inversesmile.
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On January 24 2013 11:47 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:40 blooblooblahblah wrote:On January 24 2013 11:29 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, is it normal to be very rarely using your gateways on 2 bases? I find that I generally end up spending all my money on double Robo Colossus, upgrades (1 forge), and probes/pylons, while very rarely actually getting to build zealots. It seems to work pretty well, but it just seems...wrong. Once I take a third, I tend to add on a third robo when I'm about to reach the magic number of 8 Colossi, and then pump out Immortals, and that gives me the extra money to make Archons and Chargelots. But the end result is that I end up with a rather small, extremely gas-heavy army throughout the mid-game. Since people basically never attack me due to the Colossi defensive advantage, it's been working. But should it? Yes, that's the standard way to play PvP. Most of the time i go up to 4gate on 2 base PvP with double robo, but it's just for safety and u will hardly need to use it. You want to warp in as little units as possible so u can spend ur money on more expensive units, however u need to keep an eye on ur opponent's unit count and make sure he's doing the same thing before getting too greedy. If the game ends up being a very passive 3 base Pvp, then u want to end up with an army very similar if not identical to Rain's composition which u seem to be doing. Having those extra gates just allows u to warp in units if in danger (and eventually u want a ton of gates so u can reinforce with chargelots) Once I get to my 3rd base around 140 supply i throw down a stargate and start teching to a mothership as well as maybe throw down a second forge. I just don't see the need to go triple robo. Once im maxed out i throw down gateways and a 3rd robo.
I like the 3rd robo when I'm almost maxed, so I can remake immortals or colossi faster. Before that, I think a third robo should just be some other tech. I do think people should make more Robos when they max, though...if you're going to be on 3-4 base and robo units are the most important units in your ground composition, there's really no excuse for going up to 4-5 robos and preparing a quick remax on quality units. Or preparing an air transition with 3+ stargates, at that point...I like to spend my bank on good units, when I remax.
Also how do you pronounce your name (Ignorant American asking)? When it comes to reading people names i seem to fail really hard. I thought Ineversmile was inversesmile.
It was way simpler in War3 when I had hyphens between the words in my name, and it looked like: i-never-smile. A lot of people seem to think it's inverse smile, these days. You're not alone in that.
I'm guessing that his name rhymes with goo goo gah gah, like something a baby would say? But I could be horribly wrong.
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On January 24 2013 12:05 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 11:47 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On January 24 2013 11:40 blooblooblahblah wrote:On January 24 2013 11:29 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, is it normal to be very rarely using your gateways on 2 bases? I find that I generally end up spending all my money on double Robo Colossus, upgrades (1 forge), and probes/pylons, while very rarely actually getting to build zealots. It seems to work pretty well, but it just seems...wrong. Once I take a third, I tend to add on a third robo when I'm about to reach the magic number of 8 Colossi, and then pump out Immortals, and that gives me the extra money to make Archons and Chargelots. But the end result is that I end up with a rather small, extremely gas-heavy army throughout the mid-game. Since people basically never attack me due to the Colossi defensive advantage, it's been working. But should it? Yes, that's the standard way to play PvP. Most of the time i go up to 4gate on 2 base PvP with double robo, but it's just for safety and u will hardly need to use it. You want to warp in as little units as possible so u can spend ur money on more expensive units, however u need to keep an eye on ur opponent's unit count and make sure he's doing the same thing before getting too greedy. If the game ends up being a very passive 3 base Pvp, then u want to end up with an army very similar if not identical to Rain's composition which u seem to be doing. Having those extra gates just allows u to warp in units if in danger (and eventually u want a ton of gates so u can reinforce with chargelots) Once I get to my 3rd base around 140 supply i throw down a stargate and start teching to a mothership as well as maybe throw down a second forge. I just don't see the need to go triple robo. Once im maxed out i throw down gateways and a 3rd robo. I like the 3rd robo when I'm almost maxed, so I can remake immortals or colossi faster. Before that, I think a third robo should just be some other tech. I do think people should make more Robos when they max, though...if you're going to be on 3-4 base and robo units are the most important units in your ground composition, there's really no excuse for going up to 4-5 robos and preparing a quick remax on quality units. Or preparing an air transition with 3+ stargates, at that point...I like to spend my bank on good units, when I remax. Show nested quote +Also how do you pronounce your name (Ignorant American asking)? When it comes to reading people names i seem to fail really hard. I thought Ineversmile was inversesmile. It was way simpler in War3 when I had hyphens between the words in my name, and it looked like: i-never-smile. A lot of people seem to think it's inverse smile, these days. You're not alone in that. I'm guessing that his name rhymes with goo goo gah gah, like something a baby would say? But I could be horribly wrong.
yea it's just goo goo gah gah with a bl- sound.
A 3rd robo is probably not necessarily until ur close to maxed, although i can see some benefits in having the extra immortal production. I'm also a little iffy on the air transition. I use to transition in the air but lately i've been finding that Rain's unit composition is so strong that u can just flat out die while u have supply locked up producing air units. My priorities in late game PvP have now switched to having a ton of gateways and just microing the 1st laser battle as well as i can (which honestly is the end of most games anyway). I build a fleet beacon behind this, but don't prioritize getting the mommaship. I feel that late game PvP is so much more refined now that air transitions are getting less and less viable (compared to a 6 months ago when it was very viable).
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On January 24 2013 12:41 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 12:05 ineversmile wrote:On January 24 2013 11:47 MysteryMeat1 wrote:On January 24 2013 11:40 blooblooblahblah wrote:On January 24 2013 11:29 Salivanth wrote:
In PvP, is it normal to be very rarely using your gateways on 2 bases? I find that I generally end up spending all my money on double Robo Colossus, upgrades (1 forge), and probes/pylons, while very rarely actually getting to build zealots. It seems to work pretty well, but it just seems...wrong. Once I take a third, I tend to add on a third robo when I'm about to reach the magic number of 8 Colossi, and then pump out Immortals, and that gives me the extra money to make Archons and Chargelots. But the end result is that I end up with a rather small, extremely gas-heavy army throughout the mid-game. Since people basically never attack me due to the Colossi defensive advantage, it's been working. But should it? Yes, that's the standard way to play PvP. Most of the time i go up to 4gate on 2 base PvP with double robo, but it's just for safety and u will hardly need to use it. You want to warp in as little units as possible so u can spend ur money on more expensive units, however u need to keep an eye on ur opponent's unit count and make sure he's doing the same thing before getting too greedy. If the game ends up being a very passive 3 base Pvp, then u want to end up with an army very similar if not identical to Rain's composition which u seem to be doing. Having those extra gates just allows u to warp in units if in danger (and eventually u want a ton of gates so u can reinforce with chargelots) Once I get to my 3rd base around 140 supply i throw down a stargate and start teching to a mothership as well as maybe throw down a second forge. I just don't see the need to go triple robo. Once im maxed out i throw down gateways and a 3rd robo. I like the 3rd robo when I'm almost maxed, so I can remake immortals or colossi faster. Before that, I think a third robo should just be some other tech. I do think people should make more Robos when they max, though...if you're going to be on 3-4 base and robo units are the most important units in your ground composition, there's really no excuse for going up to 4-5 robos and preparing a quick remax on quality units. Or preparing an air transition with 3+ stargates, at that point...I like to spend my bank on good units, when I remax. Also how do you pronounce your name (Ignorant American asking)? When it comes to reading people names i seem to fail really hard. I thought Ineversmile was inversesmile. It was way simpler in War3 when I had hyphens between the words in my name, and it looked like: i-never-smile. A lot of people seem to think it's inverse smile, these days. You're not alone in that. I'm guessing that his name rhymes with goo goo gah gah, like something a baby would say? But I could be horribly wrong. yea it's just goo goo gah gah with a bl- sound. A 3rd robo is probably not necessarily until ur close to maxed, although i can see some benefits in having the extra immortal production. I'm also a little iffy on the air transition. I use to transition in the air but lately i've been finding that Rain's unit composition is so strong that u can just flat out die while u have supply locked up producing air units. My priorities in late game PvP have now switched to having a ton of gateways and just microing the 1st laser battle as well as i can (which honestly is the end of most games anyway). I build a fleet beacon behind this, but don't prioritize getting the mommaship. I feel that late game PvP is so much more refined now that air transitions are getting less and less viable (compared to a 6 months ago when it was very viable).
Im not too much of an air transition fan. By the time you attack and lose your army they have 3-2-2 units compared to your 1-1 voidrays. Its not to hard making stalkers unless they dont scout it. However i like to keep a wp by their base to warp in units in their main just in case i lose the fight and its close it buys me time to rebuild my collo count. If i win the fight then i can harrass in multiple places and deal more dmg faster.
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What I meant was that you should just stay on 2 robos, use the rest of your gas to focus on upgrades and setting up archons, and then go up to ~4 robos when you're about maxed out, and your gas starts to stockpile (due to supply cap ending your robo production).
Void Rays are a pretty shitty unit; I think if you're doing stargate in the late game, it should be mixing carriers into your army. I was mainly talking about doing that as you near max, when you're already going into mship.
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PvT
That is my replay guys, help me out!
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ughhhh askldjsakldjaskldjk i can never hold the mass viking timing that hits right before storm finishes
how do pros hold this with a third? especially on maps like entombed
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Everyone seems to be talking about Rain's PvP composition: What exactly is that composition? 8 Colossi, a lot of Immortals, some Archons, and a handful of Chargelots?
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Canada13407 Posts
On January 24 2013 14:27 mizU wrote:
ughhhh askldjsakldjaskldjk i can never hold the mass viking timing that hits right before storm finishes
how do pros hold this with a third? especially on maps like entombed
Replay?
I know I have been having issues PvT and got a coaching session from minigun. Checking with him, it depends on a few things. Are you taking your third before he takes his? Did he take a third? Are you chronoing storm? what timing are you getting down extra gates? What time are you getting your templar archives down?
-- Are you behind on upgrades (assuming this is the 2-2 bio push) or even?
I was given two simple recommendations:
If you see him coming and storm isn't close to done make archons and lots of zealots.
If he isn't coming (his army is in his nat for example) then chrono storm as much as possible and you should be ok.
An additional little tip that came from Teoita - Put a proxy pylon on the map early, when he leaves his base AFTER the medivac timing (the one with lots of vikings) warp in 3 or 4 zealots and send them to the Terran third. It prevents him from sending all his reinforcements on rally at worst and at best he turns around to deal with the zealots buying you time to get storm up.
And ALWAYS have at least 3 obs on the map one watching his army, another covering an attack path, and one more watching for drops.
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Canada13407 Posts
On January 24 2013 14:46 Salivanth wrote:
Everyone seems to be talking about Rain's PvP composition: What exactly is that composition? 8 Colossi, a lot of Immortals, some Archons, and a handful of Chargelots?
From Monk:
monk wrote:
The optimal PvP army may consist of air units, but this composition is almost never able to be achieved these days in professional games because of the strength of timing pushes and of the large investment it takes to transition to air. The optimal realistic army consists of:
60 Probes:You generally don't need more than 60 probes, because PvP usually ends in one climatic battle. You want as much supply as possible in your maxed army, so more supply wasted in probes means more supply missing from your army.
8-10 Colossi, range 9: While it was once considered prudent to amass as many colossi as possible, we have now learned that it's more important to diversify damage among many layers of Protoss units. What this means is that we want many different types of units that fire at varied ranges to tank colossi shots and reduce splash damage as much as possible.
Imagine a scenario of 12 colossi and a zealot line versus 10 colossi, 3 immortals, and a zealot line. The 12 colossi will eradicate a zealot line in about the same amount of time as 10 colossi plus three immortals. However, once the zealots lines of both armies are eradicated, the 12 colossi will have to waste shots on the 6 range immortals while the 10 colossi are free to work on the extremely clumped bunch of colossi who are all firing at 9 range.
8+ Immortals, range 6: One of the most recent innovations in PvP is the use of the immortal. Immortals have a funny place in PvP; they're great in the early game against blink stalkers, terrible in mid game when zealots and colossi are the biggest factors, and essential in late game to tank colossi shots. Thus, you'll often see heavy immortal production in the beginning of a PvP, and then a switch from colossi back to immortals to finish off the last 8 supply of a Protoss army.
Archons, range 3(as many as you have the gas for): Big soft cotton balls. This both perfectly describes their appearance and their role in a PvP. As archons have many shields, large collision size, and an unique range, they're perfect as one of the first lines of defense against colossi beams.
Filler Zealots, range 1: These are the filler of the Protoss army when you don't have the gas to build anything else. While zealots are great for dps and providing the first layer of defense against colossi beams, they are best replaced by archons as soon as you have the gas available. Zealots, unfortunately, still have much smaller collision size and many fewer hit points compared to any alternatives; thus they're the perfect targets for colossi beams. Still, you'll always see zealots reinforcing Protoss armies in the middle of any big fight.
1 Sentry: One is all you need for guardian shield and even this use is questionable.A great example of a game where superior composition decides a PvP battle is Rain vs Trap from Proleague. Trap obtains an early game lead, but Rain's defense and his superior end-game composition decides this game.
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On January 24 2013 14:20 kuruptt wrote:PvTThat is my replay guys, help me out!
No one? -_- You guys told me to post a replay..
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On January 24 2013 16:56 kuruptt wrote:No one? -_- You guys told me to post a replay..
It's been a couple of hours, just wait. Not everyone has the time to analyse a replay.
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On January 24 2013 16:56 kuruptt wrote:No one? -_- You guys told me to post a replay..
Alright i'll assume you were the toss Vagisal (nice name)
So i'm going to note some things.
your poke came really late, if you scout a gas opening you need to poke with your initial zealot and stalker not wait for the second one. This will confirm which gas opening he is going. And too see the expansion.
Your opening was good up until you went triple forge, 8 gateways and collosus. Your macro could use a little bit of work but what kept you in the game for that long was your superior worker lead which was 10 workers.
What would have helped you was to have the other watch tower. His whole push got to your base unscouted. If you had seen his push you could have engaged his army in the open and killed it. Because you let his army get to your natural you were put in a pinch. If you looked at the siege tanks they had about 10 kills each. thats like 1000 minerals of stuff at least for each tank. Your dancing in their range cost you a lot of units that you could have used to kill him.
Army composition was bad to. You kept on warping in stalkers and collo to fight marader tank. i would have kept about 5 stalkers and just kept on warping in rounds of zealots you could have easily broke him.
You destroyed the rocks but you didn't flank. Sending like 5 zealots to attack tanks is extremely helpful.
TLDR: Army composition is what cost you the game. stalkers suck for maraduers and tanks need zeal immortal. You also scouted him hella late which didn't help you.
Work on constantly producing and make sure to have the xel naga tower that he will walk through. If you had seen his push coming it would have died.
Also don't hesitate to engage. You danced in got shelled and you just donated units the whole entire time. Even sending like 2 stalkers around to cut off reinforcements would have helped a lot as well.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 24 2013 10:41 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 10:40 ZeromuS wrote:On January 24 2013 10:00 Teoita wrote:
Deheheehe dat blue poster speed. Also, it's Teoita, don't pull a wax on me. Easy way to remember: Teo is Italian mind=blown that's got to be on purpose
YES someone that gets it. My nick is acutally just Teo but it was taken on somewebsite i registered on a long ass time ago so i just added the "ita" at the end and stuck with it.
PvP stuff: third robo is kinda overkill imo, at least until you first max out. You do want some archons and zealots after all, and you can get to 8 colossi and 6+ immortals on 2robos usually.
Second forge is also not useful as armor upgrades are really bad in pvp.
Fast teching to mothership is also a bit dangerous as you can die easily to a +3 timing (or even +2 with less colossi, like Rain did vs Hero in PL, if you are even a bit behind).
The ideal PvP army composition is 8 Colossi, around 6 Immortals (although people try to get more if they trade gateway units), 5ish archons, rest zealots.
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On January 24 2013 17:25 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 16:56 kuruptt wrote:On January 24 2013 14:20 kuruptt wrote:PvTThat is my replay guys, help me out! No one? -_- You guys told me to post a replay.. Alright i'll assume you were the toss Vagisal (nice name) So i'm going to note some things. your poke came really late, if you scout a gas opening you need to poke with your initial zealot and stalker not wait for the second one. This will confirm which gas opening he is going. And too see the expansion. Your opening was good up until you went triple forge, 8 gateways and collosus. Your macro could use a little bit of work but what kept you in the game for that long was your superior worker lead which was 10 workers. What would have helped you was to have the other watch tower. His whole push got to your base unscouted. If you had seen his push you could have engaged his army in the open and killed it. Because you let his army get to your natural you were put in a pinch. If you looked at the siege tanks they had about 10 kills each. thats like 1000 minerals of stuff at least for each tank. Your dancing in their range cost you a lot of units that you could have used to kill him. Army composition was bad to. You kept on warping in stalkers and collo to fight marader tank. i would have kept about 5 stalkers and just kept on warping in rounds of zealots you could have easily broke him. You destroyed the rocks but you didn't flank. Sending like 5 zealots to attack tanks is extremely helpful. TLDR: Army composition is what cost you the game. stalkers suck for maraduers and tanks need zeal immortal. You also scouted him hella late which didn't help you. Work on constantly producing and make sure to have the xel naga tower that he will walk through. If you had seen his push coming it would have died. Also don't hesitate to engage. You danced in got shelled and you just donated units the whole entire time. Even sending like 2 stalkers around to cut off reinforcements would have helped a lot as well.
Awesome this is what exactly what I was looking for. Yes that is my name (it is my friends account lol). Thanks so much for the input.
I didn't know I got an extra forge, that is totally my mistake I never go for a third forge. If I enganged his army in the open will I be able to kill it? Yes I know the siege tanks were trouble this is why I don't know how to deal with them! should I be going straight for the tanks? Yeah I figured out now that stalkers are pretty terrible for terran in general and that zealots are way better.
I am still a total noob at scouting against terran in general because I never played terran and I don't know what they are even going to go if I scout them. Is there like a guide for this or something? I also didn't know that you are supposed to poke with a zealot + stalker only. Thanks for the tips!
I am going to try to upload more replays of PvT as its the only matchup so far that gives me the biggest trouble.
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Ugh, 1 base terran is the absolute death of me. In this particular game I poked with a probe and saw 4 marines with a gas build, so I assumed it was either going to be a 2 rax or hellion drop, per usual. 2 rax didn't hit at the standard time, so I assume hellion drop and fortify my main. Turns out it's actually 3 rax stim, and all of my units die because I had 4 stalkers in my main mineral line when he hits my front. And this was daybreak, so he just dodged the watch tower, so I had no idea it was coming. I have no idea how I'm supposed to differentiate between those kinds of builds before I have an observer out and position my units accordingly. Should I have just had a probe positioned in my blind spot to see it coming? I'm not sure what I should have done. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/298182
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Stupid question (I am a terran player):
When I see Terran go 3CC. 2CC in main and 1 CC at natural.
Is this possible with protoss? 1 Nexus at natura. Then make another Nexus in main to make a boom in probe count? (obviously nexi can't move)
Would it be a strong and risky economic opening?
I saw this strategy in Age of Empires back in the day.
Excuse me if this question sounds totally idiotic. I am just wondering if anyone know.
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Italy12246 Posts
Nop, the benefit of the extra chrono/probe production isn't worth it.
Also, nexi don't fly, cc's do.
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On January 24 2013 19:13 Chandra wrote:Ugh, 1 base terran is the absolute death of me. In this particular game I poked with a probe and saw 4 marines with a gas build, so I assumed it was either going to be a 2 rax or hellion drop, per usual. 2 rax didn't hit at the standard time, so I assume hellion drop and fortify my main. Turns out it's actually 3 rax stim, and all of my units die because I had 4 stalkers in my main mineral line when he hits my front. And this was daybreak, so he just dodged the watch tower, so I had no idea it was coming. I have no idea how I'm supposed to differentiate between those kinds of builds before I have an observer out and position my units accordingly. Should I have just had a probe positioned in my blind spot to see it coming? I'm not sure what I should have done. Here's the replay: http://drop.sc/298182
Any attack is easier to defend if you see it coming. I think your early game scouting was fine; you don't necessarily want to check more than that. But you should definitely see this attack coming; it takes him so long to walk ALL the way around the watchtower on this map.
If you put something (a probe, a zealot, a stalker, a pylon, ANYTHING) at that spot between your 3rd, 4th, and 5th bases, you will see the attack coming. At 7:20 he's at this place on the map and if you have vision, you have ample time to cut probes for a couple seconds, warp in units at your natural, go to your natural with the stalkers in your main, and deflect this attack. You can afford to put a probe or zealot out on the map to check for this kind of attack, so just do it. Even if it's hellions, it would be nice to see if the hellions are coming from that direction (instead of a drop). Heck, even if you put a stalker out there and lose it to marauders, it's fine...the information is worth it.
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EPT
