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On January 23 2013 15:01 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 13:33 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 13:02 Havik_ wrote:What are the cons of Gateway expanding in PvZ? I really like Cecil's 1 Gate 1 Assimilator FE 1 Gate expands are unreliable, they can usually be forced to cancel the expansion with a ling flood, so you have to deny scouting of it, which is hard to do with overlords. They can work on maps where the overlord isn't assured to reach your spot first or the map is big enough that by the time he takes gas you can handle it. 2 Gate expands are a little safer but basically the same as above. 3 gate expands put you way behind economically compared to the zerg due to all the sentries you need to make and your late nexus. Basically, FFE are safer than the good eco gateway expands, and better eco than the safe gateway expands. It really depends on whether your opponent reacts and gets an early speed. If he does, you'll be in trouble. With Cecil's 1gas build, a ling flood is very holdable imo, especially cos no one opens 14/14 anymore. It requires good sim city and control though, but even i switched to using Eifer's pylon position i hardly lose to a ling flood (except against Mafia, but that was antiga and he's way better than me anyway). Gate nexus is my preferred build over gate core builds and FFE, however one really effective strategy (which i learnt from watching CCalms play, a GM protoss on NA) when going for gate core is to cybernetics core block the zerg's natural. They're forced to either take their 3rd (which is punishable with gate core) or have their natural significantly delayed to the point that u can expand at almost the same time as them. Occasionally, the zerg will try to mass ling all in you, but again, IMO this is holdable with smart building placement. (It helps that i have plenty of practice vs this, because mass ling is a common response to gate nexus builds)
I like doing gate nexus in pvz too. It holds easily vs a 14pool mass ling build (which is a common and bad response) if you can scout some of the additional lings and place a forge right away.
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On January 23 2013 13:02 Havik_ wrote:What are the cons of Gateway expanding in PvZ? I really like Cecil's 1 Gate 1 Assimilator FE
What I do when I gate expand is just throw down another gateway if I scout them gas after they scout me not FFEing. Then I'll usually chrono out a few zeal stalker sentries and just expand normally.
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When going for a 3-base Colossus/Stalker timing in PvZ, when should I be throwing down the Robo Bay?
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On January 23 2013 17:01 Salivanth wrote:
When going for a 3-base Colossus/Stalker timing in PvZ, when should I be throwing down the Robo Bay?
Depends on when you throw down your 3rd base. I would throw down your robo bay after you've secured your third and made sure no slow roach ling all-in is coming.
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Italy12247 Posts
On January 23 2013 17:08 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 17:01 Salivanth wrote:
When going for a 3-base Colossus/Stalker timing in PvZ, when should I be throwing down the Robo Bay? Depends on when you throw down your 3rd base. I would throw down your robo bay after you've secured your third and made sure no roach max is coming and zerg is not teching to mutas.
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Ah, okay. Makes sense. Throw it down the second I know my opponent is going for the build that I actually want to use the 3-base push against. Nice and simple, which is good, since my opponents almost always go roach max at this level and I'm not going to be able to do the push often enough for there to be too much subtlety in it 
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Hi all. How do I respond to a wall-in double-expand out of Terran as Protoss? I've been playing HotS the last few weeks and I'm getting beat by some of my Terran opponents even though I'm outplaying them hard, my economy just didn't get as strong a start as theirs and I end up equal to or behind them whether or not my initial DTs do damage. If It looks like a run-of-the-mill gasless expand, I go for a DT expand into double-forge Chargelot/Archon. However, by the time the DTs even hit, I'm already dealing with a 3 OC Terran while my natural isn't even fully saturated yet, and when I go in for an attack once I realize that they've double-expanded, they already have just enough troops to defend.
What do you other Protoss do against Terran double-expand opening? I'm Masters in WoL btw, high Gold in HotS.
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On January 23 2013 17:47 cohen5250 wrote:
Hi all. How do I respond to a wall-in double-expand out of Terran as Protoss? I've been playing HotS the last few weeks and I'm getting beat by some of my Terran opponents even though I'm outplaying them hard, my economy just didn't get as strong a start as theirs and I end up equal to or behind them whether or not my initial DTs do damage. If It looks like a run-of-the-mill gasless expand, I go for a DT expand into double-forge Chargelot/Archon. However, by the time the DTs even hit, I'm already dealing with a 3 OC Terran while my natural isn't even fully saturated yet, and when I go in for an attack once I realize that they've double-expanded, they already have just enough troops to defend.
What do you other Protoss do against Terran double-expand opening? I'm Masters in WoL btw, high Gold in HotS.
I'm not sure I understand what the wall-off means. Is he walling his natural with depots/bunkers? Or is he just going 3 OC in his main and then floating them down later?
It sounds like you're getting beat by 3 OC because DTs...well, they suck against 3 OC. He has 3 times the scans. Of course DTs are going to be weak against that opener.
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On January 23 2013 13:00 FlyingBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 10:01 GaliX wrote:Hey guys! I am just got roflstomped by a zerg. I would say my opening was pretty good. I was ahead in everything after my typical opening on a 4p map. I even took my 3rd at the same time when the zerg did. I tried to hit a pre gglord timing, with no succes he just catched me and fungled everything to death. I watched replay two times and just didnt see any time i would been able to take a good fight against the zerg ... so What should I do on Antiga when I am able to get my 3rd at roughly at the same time the zerg did. I would say my macro was ok I guess, i was hard supplyblocked at 142sup but the rest was pretty good, i tried to harras but with so many units on the map its more a wasting of units rather getting ahead. I didnt get the mothership because i saw there were not many gglords at most of the time. I dont think it would have helped me anytime.. so pleas guys tell me guys how to move out when zerg has an army like this one had? I was retriting and he catched me totaly offguard. but i just dont know how I should probebly move out and still beeing save? ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-277577.jpg) Macro better Go back through the replay, set the speed to x4, and watch the probe production in the production tab. See all those times where you weren't producing probes? That's why you lost. You had a good timing on your third and your opponent had a very late timing but it didn't matter because you almost completely halted probe production for about 2:00 straight right afterwards. Other issues, but this is just quibbling: Hallucinate isn't very good, observers are better You went gate-core expand which slows down your economy to get faster tech but you didn't put on any pressure to make up for it You chose a bad engagement angle for the big battle. It was a wide open area where the lings were able to get a huge surround on your army. You overdid it on gateways a little, an earlier 2nd forge or dts would have been better You moved out way too late. You should've moved out as soon as 2-2 finished although with proper macro, you could've moved out at the same time with a bigger army and 3-3 finishing up.
thanks a lot =)
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Italy12247 Posts
On January 23 2013 17:47 cohen5250 wrote:
Hi all. How do I respond to a wall-in double-expand out of Terran as Protoss? I've been playing HotS the last few weeks and I'm getting beat by some of my Terran opponents even though I'm outplaying them hard, my economy just didn't get as strong a start as theirs and I end up equal to or behind them whether or not my initial DTs do damage. If It looks like a run-of-the-mill gasless expand, I go for a DT expand into double-forge Chargelot/Archon. However, by the time the DTs even hit, I'm already dealing with a 3 OC Terran while my natural isn't even fully saturated yet, and when I go in for an attack once I realize that they've double-expanded, they already have just enough troops to defend.
What do you other Protoss do against Terran double-expand opening? I'm Masters in WoL btw, high Gold in HotS.
With a standard 1gate FE -> 3gate robo build, you can take your third off 3 gates instead of 6 like you would vs a medivac timing once you scout the 3rd OC.
You can't really scout it nor respond to it any faster, especially with builds that skip a robo, because you can't scout it reliably without an obs.
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In PvZ versus the roach max, I've been following the strategy of "Throw them back, then don't tech at all and counter-push with Immortal/Blink Stalker/Sentry at ~160-180 food, with +2 or +3 depending on how long the fighting went." Is this the correct way to go about killing a failed Roach max, or am I only winning because my opponents are bad?
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Italy12247 Posts
That's how it's done, correct choice.
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On January 23 2013 19:54 Salivanth wrote:
In PvZ versus the roach max, I've been following the strategy of "Throw them back, then don't tech at all and counter-push with Immortal/Blink Stalker/Sentry at ~160-180 food, with +2 or +3 depending on how long the fighting went." Is this the correct way to go about killing a failed Roach max, or am I only winning because my opponents are bad?
Mostly this is what I do after a failed Roach max, and I win most of the time with staying on upgraded Stalker Sentry Immortal, but I did experienced a loss when the opponent build alot of Hydras. I think the more correct answer is to tech to Colossi with double Robo and attack with 3-5 with ETL, as it forces Corruptors which weakens the ground force and deals with pretty much any ground composition the Zerg can throw at you.
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Gate Nexus builds (after Pylon, Assim, Core, Zealot) are doable, they're not so bad on multiple spawn maps. But they auto lose vs early pools (anything before 10). Apart from that, they're really strong builds.
My current PvZ favourite is a 2 Gas Zealot + 3 Sentry expo. I get the gases at funny timings to get the best out of them efficiency wise. (15 Gas, 16 Gas, 2 on each until 16 are mining mins, then rally 2 into one into each gas, then rally next pProbe to make Nexus, 27 supply I think - the gas and min timings work out very nicely indeed) What I love about it is it is so strong vs early pool timings
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Italy12247 Posts
Early pools can be held with gateway/nexus builds if you know what you are doing
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On January 24 2013 04:00 Gumbi wrote:
Gate Nexus builds (after Pylon, Assim, Core, Zealot) are doable, they're not so bad on multiple spawn maps. But they auto lose vs early pools (anything before 10). Apart from that, they're really strong builds.
13 gate 15 gas zealot/stalker is the absolute safest way to open against early pools, no matter how many spawn positions are on the map. You should lose maybe 3 probes, at the most, you don't lose any buildings, and you gain map control and tech advantage while retaining a better economy than the zerg's. There are reasons why players use the FFE over 13gate 15 gas 23/25 nexus, but none of those reasons have to do with fighting early pools.
On January 24 2013 04:38 Teoita wrote:Early pools can be held with gateway/nexus builds if you know what you are doing
This explains how to handle things if you build your pylons and gateway by your ramp or on the low ground. However, if you put that stuff in your main by your mineral line, you only have to pull 4-6 probes at most, and your pylons have less surface area for lings to hit. Plus, this allows you to set up traps so when lings decide to go for your pylons, you can surround them with probes and the zealot (as it pops out) and kill some lings for free as they run away, or kill most of them at the cost of 1-2 probes. And you get a lot more mining time this way, since you don't have to pull probes all the way to your ramp to defend buildings.
I recommend Zealot-Zealot-Stalker and a second gate when you have 150 minerals, and then push out. That way, if the zerg builds units you're safe because you're producing constantly from 2 gates. If he drones hard, you can just add on another pair of gates to time with your WG research and kill him directly with a 4gate. If he turtles up his main base and sacs his natural, you can just expand and FF his ramp, and play a 2base vs 1base PvZ (which is basically an autowin).
The gate/core section of the guide, which is http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#1.3 only explains how to handle things if you use the gate to wall off your ramp, but if simply don't wall your ramp off, you're actually safer against the early pools by default. Then you don't have to jump through hoops to build a wall at your ramp, which is completely useless for that stage of the game.
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Oh, are you gating at the main ramp? That would make the nexus later than I get it for gate nexus. Can I see a replay of a 6 pool on a 2 player map vs gate Nexus?
Going 2 gas zealot sentry sentry sentry means I don't have to scout (until I drop the Nexus, at which point I scout for tjhe Zerg's third). A nice timing which lines up is the Probe arrives at the third around the time the Z can get the earliest safe third (after gassing for speed) at around 5.30.
Gate builds are such a great way to throw a Zerg off (2 gas especially). I follow up with a 5.30 Robo and wall off with a Pylon, Forge, gate etc at appropriate timings. The actual order is nexus low ground pylon forge robo.
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Gating at the ramp is just terrible. It's less economical than building by your mineral line, it's not safer against early pools, and it's not safer against any later timings (because you can just build a wall later). Don't do it.
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This explains how to handle things if you build your pylons and gateway by your ramp or on the low ground
I know, I'm only going by what you said here, though.
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EPT
