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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On January 23 2013 05:53 Teoita wrote:
There's no such thing as a 3gate void ray contain in PvP. Just tech to either blink, phoenixes or Archons, break down your ramp and kill him. Until massed Void rays are extremely cost inefficient against all those units.
how are you gonna tell me there is no such thing, when i just faced it .......
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if you want help you're going to have to provide a replay, but generally if you scout stargate with your probe then you might as well go blink anyway
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it mean it's not viable at "high" level...
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If you were 3gate void ray contained it means at that point you probably lost your natural or you coulnd't move out to getting your army ff in half. At that point i would start warping stalkers outside of my base and do a pincer attack, or attack his base and push out the ramp when my 2 zealots make it to his base. Chances are they will be looking at their base when you move out your base.
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On January 23 2013 06:20 askmc70 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 05:53 Teoita wrote:
There's no such thing as a 3gate void ray contain in PvP. Just tech to either blink, phoenixes or Archons, break down your ramp and kill him. Until massed Void rays are extremely cost inefficient against all those units. how are you gonna tell me there is no such thing, when i just faced it .......
Post a replay, so we can believe you? And then so we know what you're talking about, and can help you beat this?
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United States7483 Posts
On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: Show nested quote +A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them.
Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response.
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On January 23 2013 09:23 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them. Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response.
The zerg certainly didn't consider his response to be game-losing, since it was a planned strategy (as evidenced from his casting teammate knowing what was going to happen). The situation is too rare in high-level games to properly evaluate, but I certainly would call that a hold.
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Hey guys!
I am just got roflstomped by a zerg.
I would say my opening was pretty good. I was ahead in everything after my typical opening on a 4p map.
I even took my 3rd at the same time when the zerg did.
I tried to hit a pre gglord timing, with no succes he just catched me and fungled everything to death.
I watched replay two times and just didnt see any time i would been able to take a good fight against the zerg ... so What should I do on Antiga when I am able to get my 3rd at roughly at the same time the zerg did.
I would say my macro was ok I guess, i was hard supplyblocked at 142sup but the rest was pretty good, i tried to harras but with so many units on the map its more a wasting of units rather getting ahead.
I didnt get the mothership because i saw there were not many gglords at most of the time. I dont think it would have helped me anytime..
so pleas guys tell me guys how to move out when zerg has an army like this one had? I was retriting and he catched me totaly offguard. but i just dont know how I should probebly move out and still beeing save?
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-277577.jpg)
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United States7483 Posts
On January 23 2013 09:47 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:23 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them. Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response. The zerg certainly didn't consider his response to be game-losing, since it was a planned strategy (as evidenced from his casting teammate knowing what was going to happen). The situation is too rare in high-level games to properly evaluate, but I certainly would call that a hold.
Whether he considered it to be or not, it was. He was way behind after he held it and couldn't do any damage with his mutas.
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On January 23 2013 11:03 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:47 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:23 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them. Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response. The zerg certainly didn't consider his response to be game-losing, since it was a planned strategy (as evidenced from his casting teammate knowing what was going to happen). The situation is too rare in high-level games to properly evaluate, but I certainly would call that a hold. Whether he considered it to be or not, it was. He was way behind after he held it and couldn't do any damage with his mutas.
So what? That game was never purported to be an example of perfect execution, and therefore it says nothing about the general state of immortal sentry all-in vs. 3 base mutas. It was posted as a counterexample to your original argument, which was that holding the attack was very hard. The mutas did no damage because he ran them into the prism, even though he saw the prism with watchtower vision. There were other mistakes and possible improvements if you look closely enough. He could have taken the 10:00 base when he saw the units leaving Yonghwa's natural, for example.
Again, there are too few high-level games with this situation to make conclusions about it. My point all along has been that the attack is not particularly difficult to hold. What position that hold leaves the zerg in, assuming equally skilled players and relatively mistake-free play, is unknown. If you have other replays or VODs to share, please do so.
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On January 23 2013 11:30 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:03 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 09:47 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:23 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them. Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response. The zerg certainly didn't consider his response to be game-losing, since it was a planned strategy (as evidenced from his casting teammate knowing what was going to happen). The situation is too rare in high-level games to properly evaluate, but I certainly would call that a hold. Whether he considered it to be or not, it was. He was way behind after he held it and couldn't do any damage with his mutas. So what? That game was never purported to be an example of perfect execution, and therefore it says nothing about the general state of immortal sentry all-in vs. 3 base mutas. It was posted as a counterexample to your original argument, which was that holding the attack was very hard. The mutas did no damage because he ran them into the prism, even though he saw the prism with watchtower vision. There were other mistakes and possible improvements if you look closely enough. He could have taken the 10:00 base when he saw the units leaving Yonghwa's natural, for example. Again, there are too few high-level games with this situation to make conclusions about it. My point all along has been that the attack is not particularly difficult to hold. What position that hold leaves the zerg in, assuming equally skilled players and relatively mistake-free play, is unknown. If you have other replays or VODs to share, please do so.
That's like saying you can defend a 4gate with 4 hatch before pool if you turn all your drones into spine crawlers when it finishes.
Sure, the 4gate is "defended", but the game is already won. It's sort of the same thing with 3 base muta against the sentry/immortal all in. Best case scenario is you're behind in economy and army, and your only advantage is a few mutas you can produce off 2 bases behind a spine wall.
It can work, especially if Protoss is bad, but 3 base muta definitely is not the answer to sentry/immortal...
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On January 23 2013 11:37 Mavvie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:30 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 11:03 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 09:47 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:23 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:
[quote]
You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map.
What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out.
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Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them. Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response. The zerg certainly didn't consider his response to be game-losing, since it was a planned strategy (as evidenced from his casting teammate knowing what was going to happen). The situation is too rare in high-level games to properly evaluate, but I certainly would call that a hold. Whether he considered it to be or not, it was. He was way behind after he held it and couldn't do any damage with his mutas. So what? That game was never purported to be an example of perfect execution, and therefore it says nothing about the general state of immortal sentry all-in vs. 3 base mutas. It was posted as a counterexample to your original argument, which was that holding the attack was very hard. The mutas did no damage because he ran them into the prism, even though he saw the prism with watchtower vision. There were other mistakes and possible improvements if you look closely enough. He could have taken the 10:00 base when he saw the units leaving Yonghwa's natural, for example. Again, there are too few high-level games with this situation to make conclusions about it. My point all along has been that the attack is not particularly difficult to hold. What position that hold leaves the zerg in, assuming equally skilled players and relatively mistake-free play, is unknown. If you have other replays or VODs to share, please do so. That's like saying you can defend a 4gate with 4 hatch before pool if you turn all your drones into spine crawlers when it finishes. Sure, the 4gate is "defended", but the game is already won. It's sort of the same thing with 3 base muta against the sentry/immortal all in. Best case scenario is you're behind in economy and army, and your only advantage is a few mutas you can produce off 2 bases behind a spine wall. It can work, especially if Protoss is bad, but 3 base muta definitely is not the answer to sentry/immortal...
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said 3 base muta is the answer to sentry immortal all-in, nor do I think that. We're talking about a zerg player going for 3 base muta and seeing an immortal sentry all-in coming. No matter what, the zerg will be disadvantaged...it's just the nature of SC2. The question is: can the zerg minimize the disadvantage enough to have a real chance at beating an equal opponent? We don't really know, because the situation is so rare that the best zerg response is a mystery. I think this is the fifth time I've written that, so it'll be the last.
Also, your example is just silly.
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On January 23 2013 12:38 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:37 Mavvie wrote:On January 23 2013 11:30 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 11:03 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 09:47 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 09:23 Whitewing wrote:On January 23 2013 04:18 city42 wrote:On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:
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A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks.
That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out. Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive. Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this: A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them. Well, he didn't really *hold the attack*. It's not as if he saw the attack coming, engaged it and killed it off, or even traded. Rather, he took unrecoverable damage and managed to convince the opponent to stop attacking without the protoss actually losing anything. I'd define that as a game winning attack, even if it takes another 10 minutes to actually finish the zerg off. I guess the real question is what does holding an attack actually entail? I generally consider holding an attack to be stopping an enemy attack without suffering immense damage, and the zerg doesn't do that with a muta build and a mass spine response. The zerg certainly didn't consider his response to be game-losing, since it was a planned strategy (as evidenced from his casting teammate knowing what was going to happen). The situation is too rare in high-level games to properly evaluate, but I certainly would call that a hold. Whether he considered it to be or not, it was. He was way behind after he held it and couldn't do any damage with his mutas. So what? That game was never purported to be an example of perfect execution, and therefore it says nothing about the general state of immortal sentry all-in vs. 3 base mutas. It was posted as a counterexample to your original argument, which was that holding the attack was very hard. The mutas did no damage because he ran them into the prism, even though he saw the prism with watchtower vision. There were other mistakes and possible improvements if you look closely enough. He could have taken the 10:00 base when he saw the units leaving Yonghwa's natural, for example. Again, there are too few high-level games with this situation to make conclusions about it. My point all along has been that the attack is not particularly difficult to hold. What position that hold leaves the zerg in, assuming equally skilled players and relatively mistake-free play, is unknown. If you have other replays or VODs to share, please do so. That's like saying you can defend a 4gate with 4 hatch before pool if you turn all your drones into spine crawlers when it finishes. Sure, the 4gate is "defended", but the game is already won. It's sort of the same thing with 3 base muta against the sentry/immortal all in. Best case scenario is you're behind in economy and army, and your only advantage is a few mutas you can produce off 2 bases behind a spine wall. It can work, especially if Protoss is bad, but 3 base muta definitely is not the answer to sentry/immortal... Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said 3 base muta is the answer to sentry immortal all-in, nor do I think that. We're talking about a zerg player going for 3 base muta and seeing an immortal sentry all-in coming. No matter what, the zerg will be disadvantaged...it's just the nature of SC2. The question is: can the zerg minimize the disadvantage enough to have a real chance at beating an equal opponent? We don't really know, because the situation is so rare that the best zerg response is a mystery. I think this is the fifth time I've written that, so it'll be the last. Also, your example is just silly.
Ok, I understand. Reading the post I just got the impression that your opinion was "no, mutas can defend the push easily", where defending means being at an advantage. Upon re-reading it I realize that I was wrong, sorry. However, I'm not sure how a Zerg would be "going" for 3 base muta and then scouting the push...the push moves out right when lair finishes, and it's scouted a fair while before that.
Hell, I still am unsure of the best way to defend the all in on ladder...I guess I'll be experimenting with spine crawlers to buy time for infestors and stuff...
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On January 23 2013 10:01 GaliX wrote:Hey guys! I am just got roflstomped by a zerg. I would say my opening was pretty good. I was ahead in everything after my typical opening on a 4p map. I even took my 3rd at the same time when the zerg did. I tried to hit a pre gglord timing, with no succes he just catched me and fungled everything to death. I watched replay two times and just didnt see any time i would been able to take a good fight against the zerg ... so What should I do on Antiga when I am able to get my 3rd at roughly at the same time the zerg did. I would say my macro was ok I guess, i was hard supplyblocked at 142sup but the rest was pretty good, i tried to harras but with so many units on the map its more a wasting of units rather getting ahead. I didnt get the mothership because i saw there were not many gglords at most of the time. I dont think it would have helped me anytime.. so pleas guys tell me guys how to move out when zerg has an army like this one had? I was retriting and he catched me totaly offguard. but i just dont know how I should probebly move out and still beeing save?
Macro better
Go back through the replay, set the speed to x4, and watch the probe production in the production tab. See all those times where you weren't producing probes? That's why you lost. You had a good timing on your third and your opponent had a very late timing but it didn't matter because you almost completely halted probe production for about 2:00 straight right afterwards.
Other issues, but this is just quibbling:
Hallucinate isn't very good, observers are better
You went gate-core expand which slows down your economy to get faster tech but you didn't put on any pressure to make up for it
You chose a bad engagement angle for the big battle. It was a wide open area where the lings were able to get a huge surround on your army.
You overdid it on gateways a little, an earlier 2nd forge or dts would have been better
You moved out way too late. You should've moved out as soon as 2-2 finished although with proper macro, you could've moved out at the same time with a bigger army and 3-3 finishing up.
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On January 23 2013 13:02 Havik_ wrote:What are the cons of Gateway expanding in PvZ? I really like Cecil's 1 Gate 1 Assimilator FE
Isn't that opener hard countered by 14/14 expand/speedling timing? I'm sure it can at least force a cancel on the nexus, except maybe on a map like Cloud Kingdom where you can wall off extremely easily. Basically speedlings ravage small numbers of zealot/stalker, and with no sentries you'll have to be careful with wall offs.
Also I believe there are a few roach all ins that are hard to defend with gate expands, but nothing impossible. It's really just the general argument of gateway FE vs forge FE. Gateway expands have less economy but force Zerg to have less economy as well, gate expands also have faster tech, but many zergs will go 2 base lair against gateway expands so it's generally a lower economy game from both sides.
It's stylistic and map dependent; you'll be able to find success with both styles, just learn the timings to execute/defend with both and, of course, macro better 
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United States7483 Posts
On January 23 2013 13:02 Havik_ wrote:What are the cons of Gateway expanding in PvZ? I really like Cecil's 1 Gate 1 Assimilator FE
1 Gate expands are unreliable, they can usually be forced to cancel the expansion with a ling flood, so you have to deny scouting of it, which is hard to do with overlords. They can work on maps where the overlord isn't assured to reach your spot first or the map is big enough that by the time he takes gas you can handle it.
2 Gate expands are a little safer but basically the same as above.
3 gate expands put you way behind economically compared to the zerg due to all the sentries you need to make and your late nexus.
Basically, FFE are safer than the good eco gateway expands, and better eco than the safe gateway expands. It really depends on whether your opponent reacts and gets an early speed. If he does, you'll be in trouble.
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I guess I must be getting lucky then, because based on the metagame, and the people I'm playing being relatively bad (Gold-Platinum), they don't know how to react to the Gate Core FE and some of them go 3 hatch, in which case I kill them with a quick 7 gate off of 2 bases, or I'm able to kill multiple queens with the Zealot, Stalker, or take most of the health off the natural hatchery, etc. I guess against better players I just need to be aware of when ling speed finishes. I usually get Warp Gate out kinda quickly, and then go up to 4 gateways total after the Nexus walling off the natural. I have a tendency to attack more and delay upgrades in all matchups, so I favor Gateway expands in PvZ since I don't need the upgrades the Forge offers. It also smashes all early pool builds.
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On January 23 2013 13:33 Whitewing wrote:1 Gate expands are unreliable, they can usually be forced to cancel the expansion with a ling flood, so you have to deny scouting of it, which is hard to do with overlords. They can work on maps where the overlord isn't assured to reach your spot first or the map is big enough that by the time he takes gas you can handle it. 2 Gate expands are a little safer but basically the same as above. 3 gate expands put you way behind economically compared to the zerg due to all the sentries you need to make and your late nexus. Basically, FFE are safer than the good eco gateway expands, and better eco than the safe gateway expands. It really depends on whether your opponent reacts and gets an early speed. If he does, you'll be in trouble.
With Cecil's 1gas build, a ling flood is very holdable imo, especially cos no one opens 14/14 anymore. It requires good sim city and control though, but even i switched to using Eifer's pylon position i hardly lose to a ling flood (except against Mafia, but that was antiga and he's way better than me anyway).
Gate nexus is my preferred build over gate core builds and FFE, however one really effective strategy (which i learnt from watching CCalms play, a GM protoss on NA) when going for gate core is to cybernetics core block the zerg's natural. They're forced to either take their 3rd (which is punishable with gate core) or have their natural significantly delayed to the point that u can expand at almost the same time as them. Occasionally, the zerg will try to mass ling all in you, but again, IMO this is holdable with smart building placement. (It helps that i have plenty of practice vs this, because mass ling is a common response to gate nexus builds)
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On January 23 2013 13:00 FlyingBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 10:01 GaliX wrote:Hey guys! I am just got roflstomped by a zerg. I would say my opening was pretty good. I was ahead in everything after my typical opening on a 4p map. I even took my 3rd at the same time when the zerg did. I tried to hit a pre gglord timing, with no succes he just catched me and fungled everything to death. I watched replay two times and just didnt see any time i would been able to take a good fight against the zerg ... so What should I do on Antiga when I am able to get my 3rd at roughly at the same time the zerg did. I would say my macro was ok I guess, i was hard supplyblocked at 142sup but the rest was pretty good, i tried to harras but with so many units on the map its more a wasting of units rather getting ahead. I didnt get the mothership because i saw there were not many gglords at most of the time. I dont think it would have helped me anytime.. so pleas guys tell me guys how to move out when zerg has an army like this one had? I was retriting and he catched me totaly offguard. but i just dont know how I should probebly move out and still beeing save? Macro better Go back through the replay, set the speed to x4, and watch the probe production in the production tab. See all those times where you weren't producing probes? That's why you lost. You had a good timing on your third and your opponent had a very late timing but it didn't matter because you almost completely halted probe production for about 2:00 straight right afterwards. Other issues, but this is just quibbling: Hallucinate isn't very good, observers are better You went gate-core expand which slows down your economy to get faster tech but you didn't put on any pressure to make up for it You chose a bad engagement angle for the big battle. It was a wide open area where the lings were able to get a huge surround on your army. You overdid it on gateways a little, an earlier 2nd forge or dts would have been better You moved out way too late. You should've moved out as soon as 2-2 finished although with proper macro, you could've moved out at the same time with a bigger army and 3-3 finishing up.
One does not fight gglords without a mamaaship. However as mentioned above. Taking your 3rd was nice but if you dont have probes then it doesn't actually help you.
As for harrassing the best way to make your harass effective is to posture your army outside of his base at the 4th and drop his main. This makes him choose how many units he wants to send back. If he sends to little good for you warp in more. If he sends to much then attack the front. Harrassment becomes more effective the more broodlords he has because his army is just soo slow.
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EPT
