EPT
On January 19 2013 15:59 Reborn8u wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I am no authority on the matter, but here's what I do. One of the biggest benefits for a ling/muta zerg is he can expand all over the place. So keep an eye on his third and stay active with scouting (whether it be obs, hallucinate, phoenix or DTs) if he takes a base you may not be able to do anything about it, but you need to be aware of it.
Once you have templar tech and blink, you need to put plenty of cannons and backup pylons to defend your main and nat. Leave at least 1 HT in each. Once you have this, you should be able to defend the mutas fairly easily. Now use your main army to crawl to a 3rd, archons are your best friend. I can't tell you how many players I've watched lose 1000's worth of income and workers because they tried to go cheap on cannons, didn't have extra pylons for the cannons, and did not have pre positioned HT's. As long as you don't do anything stupid and get frustrated, it's going to be a long game.(you never want a base trade vs muta ling!) I also recommend investing in shield upgrades before armor. (of course you want attack upgrades 1st vs zerg) The shield upgrades will benefit your cannons, archons, and pylons, which all have enhanced importance vs muta/ling. Stay away from robo tech (other than obs I will usually get at least 3 obs out vs muta ling! Trust me, it pays dividends).
A big mistake I see a lot of players make is not having any zealots. You always want some, depending on how heavy he goes lings, you may want more. Going templar, and only using a robo for obs, you will have the extra minerals, so use them to your benefit, plenty of cannons and some zealots.
You won't be able to counter attack the zerg most games, because they usually get a spine wall when going muta/ling. So you usually have to wait until you get the 3rd base and it's gas before you can build up enough archons, storms, and upgrades to be aggressive. When you are getting close to feeling safe to move out, you probably want DT's, scout for bases, and just be annoying if possible with them. I usually leave them on towers and on patrol at bases I think zerg might try to take. Don't expect to go harass his main with them, don't make 10 of them, just a few to scout, deny new expos, and hold towers are very helpful!
Basically, don't underestimate the value of map vision. The muta ling is stupid fast, early warning is so very helpful! Knowing how greedy they are being is very important also. What you have to watch out for now is that once you pile the cannons on and have well placed templar (if the muta ball gets really big you may want 2 ht per base, and always replace them if they die!) The zerg will typically react by either being greedy as hell and taking expansions all over the place, or a tech switch. So scout really well and be aware of either. They could try to switch into roach or go towards hive (infestor/bl) Just realize that if they do go into infestor, it will be a much slower process than normal for the zerg to get the BL's out, because he spent all that gas on muta. So he won't be able to make 10 of them right away, unless he was able to take bases all over the place unimpeded. Keep in mind also, that you know you won't be moving out any time soon, I sometimes go triple forge against muta ling, so when i do push out, it's a 3/3/3 timing. Besides, you won't have to crono probes or robo, because you will be turtling. So use that crono for them upgrades.
If they commit to muta and you see no signs of a tech switch, phoenix with the range upgrade are probably a great idea, I usually don't go that way because my micro is crap with phoenix. So I can't be really helpful there. But even with poor micro, I've killed off muta flocks over time with them.
To sum it up, you will be forced to turtle, so get those forge upgrades and don't spare the chrono, get those HT's, blink, and archons. Get plenty of cannons (however many you think you need, make a few more than that), and no artosis pylons! Keep 1 or 2 Ht's hanging out in each mineral line (defended by a good number of cannons) Scout really well, lots of obs, or frequent hallucinate. You want vision of attack paths from mutas, you need to know if the zerg is tech switching or staying with muta, you need to know if he is grabbing bases everywhere, you need to know if he has a spine wall. Once you are defended from muta really well, crawl to your 3rd with pylons and get the cannons up asap. Your army should be plenty of archons, HT's, blink stalkers, with a few sentries and zealots.
Motherships are great in late game vs muta ling for several reasons, you can deny him forcing a base trade by recalling home, if he switches into BL's you will be ready to toilet. Just leave the momma at home, where you have all those cannons and Ht's. If the zerg tries to kill it with muta, you should get a good trade (or a game ending muta toilet!)
Also a few tips, if you are reacting with your stalkers, first blink right away, you will often get the 2nd blink before they leave anyway. But the sooner you get there the less dmg you take. Also, sim city well. Make it really hard for a runby to do dmg. Use guardian shield, put your stalkers, and sentries on separate hotkeys (even if they are also on the hotkey with everything else) because templar will always have priority, Being able to press 2 and have just the stalkers selected for a quick blink is very helpful, same idea with guardian shield and FF's.
Mid game vs muta ling is very tough, but if you do what I've said, and defend really well, stay on top of scouting, you will roll them late game if they stay on muta ling. Once you have an upgraded maxed army with plenty of templar and archons, you should be able to crush their army and kill off expansions. Just make sure to leave a little supply open. I'd say stay at about 190. Just so you can warp in some stuff if need be. On the freak chance they mix in banes, (I've seen it!) FF's will be very important. The reason I think most people do so bad in the late game vs muta ling is because they don't play it safe and take constant economic dmg.
Hope this helps.
+ Show Spoiler +
I am no authority on the matter, but here's what I do. One of the biggest benefits for a ling/muta zerg is he can expand all over the place. So keep an eye on his third and stay active with scouting (whether it be obs, hallucinate, phoenix or DTs) if he takes a base you may not be able to do anything about it, but you need to be aware of it.
Once you have templar tech and blink, you need to put plenty of cannons and backup pylons to defend your main and nat. Leave at least 1 HT in each. Once you have this, you should be able to defend the mutas fairly easily. Now use your main army to crawl to a 3rd, archons are your best friend. I can't tell you how many players I've watched lose 1000's worth of income and workers because they tried to go cheap on cannons, didn't have extra pylons for the cannons, and did not have pre positioned HT's. As long as you don't do anything stupid and get frustrated, it's going to be a long game.(you never want a base trade vs muta ling!) I also recommend investing in shield upgrades before armor. (of course you want attack upgrades 1st vs zerg) The shield upgrades will benefit your cannons, archons, and pylons, which all have enhanced importance vs muta/ling. Stay away from robo tech (other than obs I will usually get at least 3 obs out vs muta ling! Trust me, it pays dividends).
A big mistake I see a lot of players make is not having any zealots. You always want some, depending on how heavy he goes lings, you may want more. Going templar, and only using a robo for obs, you will have the extra minerals, so use them to your benefit, plenty of cannons and some zealots.
You won't be able to counter attack the zerg most games, because they usually get a spine wall when going muta/ling. So you usually have to wait until you get the 3rd base and it's gas before you can build up enough archons, storms, and upgrades to be aggressive. When you are getting close to feeling safe to move out, you probably want DT's, scout for bases, and just be annoying if possible with them. I usually leave them on towers and on patrol at bases I think zerg might try to take. Don't expect to go harass his main with them, don't make 10 of them, just a few to scout, deny new expos, and hold towers are very helpful!
Basically, don't underestimate the value of map vision. The muta ling is stupid fast, early warning is so very helpful! Knowing how greedy they are being is very important also. What you have to watch out for now is that once you pile the cannons on and have well placed templar (if the muta ball gets really big you may want 2 ht per base, and always replace them if they die!) The zerg will typically react by either being greedy as hell and taking expansions all over the place, or a tech switch. So scout really well and be aware of either. They could try to switch into roach or go towards hive (infestor/bl) Just realize that if they do go into infestor, it will be a much slower process than normal for the zerg to get the BL's out, because he spent all that gas on muta. So he won't be able to make 10 of them right away, unless he was able to take bases all over the place unimpeded. Keep in mind also, that you know you won't be moving out any time soon, I sometimes go triple forge against muta ling, so when i do push out, it's a 3/3/3 timing. Besides, you won't have to crono probes or robo, because you will be turtling. So use that crono for them upgrades.
If they commit to muta and you see no signs of a tech switch, phoenix with the range upgrade are probably a great idea, I usually don't go that way because my micro is crap with phoenix. So I can't be really helpful there. But even with poor micro, I've killed off muta flocks over time with them.
To sum it up, you will be forced to turtle, so get those forge upgrades and don't spare the chrono, get those HT's, blink, and archons. Get plenty of cannons (however many you think you need, make a few more than that), and no artosis pylons! Keep 1 or 2 Ht's hanging out in each mineral line (defended by a good number of cannons) Scout really well, lots of obs, or frequent hallucinate. You want vision of attack paths from mutas, you need to know if the zerg is tech switching or staying with muta, you need to know if he is grabbing bases everywhere, you need to know if he has a spine wall. Once you are defended from muta really well, crawl to your 3rd with pylons and get the cannons up asap. Your army should be plenty of archons, HT's, blink stalkers, with a few sentries and zealots.
Motherships are great in late game vs muta ling for several reasons, you can deny him forcing a base trade by recalling home, if he switches into BL's you will be ready to toilet. Just leave the momma at home, where you have all those cannons and Ht's. If the zerg tries to kill it with muta, you should get a good trade (or a game ending muta toilet!)
Also a few tips, if you are reacting with your stalkers, first blink right away, you will often get the 2nd blink before they leave anyway. But the sooner you get there the less dmg you take. Also, sim city well. Make it really hard for a runby to do dmg. Use guardian shield, put your stalkers, and sentries on separate hotkeys (even if they are also on the hotkey with everything else) because templar will always have priority, Being able to press 2 and have just the stalkers selected for a quick blink is very helpful, same idea with guardian shield and FF's.
Mid game vs muta ling is very tough, but if you do what I've said, and defend really well, stay on top of scouting, you will roll them late game if they stay on muta ling. Once you have an upgraded maxed army with plenty of templar and archons, you should be able to crush their army and kill off expansions. Just make sure to leave a little supply open. I'd say stay at about 190. Just so you can warp in some stuff if need be. On the freak chance they mix in banes, (I've seen it!) FF's will be very important. The reason I think most people do so bad in the late game vs muta ling is because they don't play it safe and take constant economic dmg.
Hope this helps.
1) The most important: you need to hold a third before you tech to storm. Vs muta ling it's MANDATORY to take your third as fast as possible, if you delay it the muta flock will grow too big and you won't be able to defend it since they basically oneshot the nexus as it's building. If you can't secure a relatively fast third you have already lost no matter what you do.
2) There is actually a really small timing you go for vs a muta/ling player when he's switching into Hive tech and you have your bases defended by templar and a ridicolous number of cannons. Since you are maxed and his infestor count should be low, you can bust down the spine wall. It's a very, very hard timing to hit though.
3) A very, very risky but potentially reward move you can use vs muta/ling (especially 3base muta/ling/roach) is to go into a DT shrine instead of a templar archives. As soon as it completes send 4DT's to his bases, this will force his army back and out of position (muta/ling armies are always on your side of the map) long enough for you to push with your gateway/potential immortals army (remember to still get blink!) to push to his side of the map and catch him while he's trying to swing back to your side (Rain vs DRG on Antiga, OSL finals)
4) Going for late phoenix vs mutas is suicide. They are too gas intensive if you are also going for templar/blink, and very useless until you get range. Additionally, he can more easily tech switch into infestors. Range is great if you open stargate though; it's actually one of the many reasons i recommend stargate openings against 2base zerg play. I have never seen reactive 2stargate phoenix v 3base muta and i doubt it works because of how many the z can produce; i know Puzzle did it once in NASL though (there's a vod in the pvz guide).
I think I can get it down a lot closer to 7:10.
