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On January 18 2013 12:38 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:34 Gumbi wrote:
Hmmm. We're not really getting anywhere. Are any of you guys Terrans on the EU server? The only way to test it is to test specific builds vs these openers and see if they are deemed to be "safe" (safe to be defined later :D).
Regarding bunker rushing vs nexus first... You don't necessarily kill marines...or a bunker...or an scv... There';s something called forcing 4 probes off mining, cancelling the bunker and running away (maybe losing scv). I don't have an EU account and I'm only low masters as Terran, not a good choice to use. If done right you should kill the scv, if not, you have a bunker that has less health and therefore easier to kill. And once the bunker is gone, you can just send those 4 probes to mine at your natural. So the mining time gone isn't that long. But it is somewhat significant. Say it took you 30 seconds to force the cancel, travel time included. That's about 80 minerals lost for you, 25 for the bunker for him, plus the travel time and build time for the scv. If you manage to kill the scv, that's 75+ gone, about an even trade, Though it could go in someone else's favour more or less in some way.
Blizz is stupid, so you have to throw scv building randomness into the mix. The randomness sometimes, can negate "doing it right". By that I mean, sometimes it's out of your control and you simply can't kill the SCV. But this is a quibble. And you can't negate the benefit the SCV got from the scouting info by citing the lost mining time.
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If you patrol a probe around your nexus and send it to follow the scout scv when it comes, the bunker will never finish. And you lose no probes that way.
You should always transfer half a dozen or so probes to your natural when going nexus first, so if he bunkers you your workers are already on the way to stop it and the marines. 2 marines can kite a couple probes, but not 6. Then you just send them to mine at your natural, and everything is fine.
The worker lead you get from nexus first outweighs the cost of delaying mining time on 6 probes to hold a reactive offensive bunker. Unless you screw up your defense and lose more than one probe, in which case it's your fault and not the build's.
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im only plat, so in no position really to speak on these things, but maybe someone can tell me if what im doing is near correct.
i send the 9 scout, and drop 13 gate. if i see no gas when i get to his base (assuming 2 spawn map) i go for this build http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/13_Gate_17_Nexus_(Vs._Terran)
if i see gas when i get there i drop my own and continue with this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC's_1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)
is this reasonable? or is there a reason no one else seems to be suggesting 17 nexus after 13 gate?
EDIT: whoooooops i should have read alllllllll the way back. u guys are actually fighting about the viability of this exact build, just without the 9 scout. my bad i understand now.
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On January 18 2013 14:10 Tzela wrote:im only plat, so in no position really to speak on these things, but maybe someone can tell me if what im doing is near correct. i send the 9 scout, and drop 13 gate. if i see no gas when i get to his base (assuming 2 spawn map) i go for this build http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/13_Gate_17_Nexus_(Vs._Terran)if i see gas when i get there i drop my own and continue with this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC's_1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)is this reasonable? or is there a reason no one else seems to be suggesting 17 nexus after 13 gate? EDIT: whoooooops i should have read alllllllll the way back. u guys are actually fighting about the viability of this exact build, just without the 9 scout. my bad i understand now.
Basically, the whole point of 13gate 17 nexus is that you get a full 16 probe mineral saturation in your main, you get a fast nexus, but you also have that 13 gate in case of aggression. So like Nexus first, you have a really fast Nexus, but you also can get a zealot or two out faster, and you have a faster core (and therefore faster tech) than you would with Nexus First. But you should basically never 9 scout and do this build...the whole point is that you're getting that 13 gate so that you can be safer against aggression, to compensate for the potential lack of information from a depot wall.
A 13 scout isn't expected to always get into the terran's base, but it will see if there is:
-Obvious proxy play (no barracks in main)
-An expansion building at the natural
-Sometimes the terran screws up and puts other buildings close to his ramp, in vision of the probe
-And sometimes, the terran will just let you in anyways, because he doesn't care to stop the scout--or because he wants to let you in and then block your probe in with a depot and kill it
Parting would do the 13 Gate 17 Nexus and, often, not even scout until after dropping the Nexus. He would rally probe #17 out, since he already had 16 paired up on mineral patches. That meant optimal mining all the way through that magical 16 probe saturation marker. Probe #17 shows up at the natural just in time for 400 minerals to be sitting in the bank. There are other beautiful timings that line up, like that, too--it's an interesting build. But if you 9 scout, you lose basically all of the timings...and if you're scouting that early, you really have no reason to get the gate first. The gate is supposed to be a compromise towards helping solve early game aggression...either choose the 9 scout, or don't bother with 13/17 gate/nexus.
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On January 18 2013 16:31 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 14:10 Tzela wrote:im only plat, so in no position really to speak on these things, but maybe someone can tell me if what im doing is near correct. i send the 9 scout, and drop 13 gate. if i see no gas when i get to his base (assuming 2 spawn map) i go for this build http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/13_Gate_17_Nexus_(Vs._Terran)if i see gas when i get there i drop my own and continue with this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC's_1_Gate_FE_(vs._Terran)is this reasonable? or is there a reason no one else seems to be suggesting 17 nexus after 13 gate? EDIT: whoooooops i should have read alllllllll the way back. u guys are actually fighting about the viability of this exact build, just without the 9 scout. my bad i understand now. Basically, the whole point of 13gate 17 nexus is that you get a full 16 probe mineral saturation in your main, you get a fast nexus, but you also have that 13 gate in case of aggression. So like Nexus first, you have a really fast Nexus, but you also can get a zealot or two out faster, and you have a faster core (and therefore faster tech) than you would with Nexus First. But you should basically never 9 scout and do this build...the whole point is that you're getting that 13 gate so that you can be safer against aggression, to compensate for the potential lack of information from a depot wall. A 13 scout isn't expected to always get into the terran's base, but it will see if there is: -Obvious proxy play (no barracks in main) -An expansion building at the natural -Sometimes the terran screws up and puts other buildings close to his ramp, in vision of the probe -And sometimes, the terran will just let you in anyways, because he doesn't care to stop the scout--or because he wants to let you in and then block your probe in with a depot and kill it Parting would do the 13 Gate 17 Nexus and, often, not even scout until after dropping the Nexus. He would rally probe #17 out, since he already had 16 paired up on mineral patches. That meant optimal mining all the way through that magical 16 probe saturation marker. Probe #17 shows up at the natural just in time for 400 minerals to be sitting in the bank. There are other beautiful timings that line up, like that, too--it's an interesting build. But if you 9 scout, you lose basically all of the timings...and if you're scouting that early, you really have no reason to get the gate first. The gate is supposed to be a compromise towards helping solve early game aggression...either choose the 9 scout, or don't bother with 13/17 gate/nexus.
9 scouting is bad in general as a 11 can scout everything and get out in time against 2 depot rax wall if you drop a pylon and then delete it.
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if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead?
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On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead?
2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE.
If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total.
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So assume i am doing FFE vs Z. Zerg does 14gas and 14 pool. he gets his pool done and starts boost immediately, he runs into my base with lets say 8-12 lings, but nstead of harrassing my natural, he runs into my main and starts killing my probes hence all the buildings and cannos are on natural. how can I defend???? building cannoncs in main??? doing some more simcity? Thx for answers guys 
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On January 19 2013 00:39 Phantasmiq wrote:So assume i am doing FFE vs Z. Zerg does 14gas and 14 pool. he gets his pool done and starts boost immediately, he runs into my base with lets say 8-12 lings, but nstead of harrassing my natural, he runs into my main and starts killing my probes hence all the buildings and cannos are on natural. how can I defend???? building cannoncs in main??? doing some more simcity? Thx for answers guys
Please read this for all the answers: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628
Short answer: you should have a wall off with a cannon by the time the lings reach your base. In case of early pool, do a full wall off, in your case, learn the timing to get a cannon up in time, and while your zealot isn't out, wall with a probe.
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On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total.
It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play.
Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand.
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On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play. Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand.
Wait, what? I don't think you quite grasp the timings. Blink hits well before 4 phoenixes will be out, and he certainly won't have the energy to kill anywhere near 7 probes.
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On January 19 2013 01:39 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play. Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand. Wait, what? I don't think you quite grasp the timings. Blink hits well before 4 phoenixes will be out, and he certainly won't have the energy to kill anywhere near 7 probes.
I'm not the one that listed the timings.
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On January 19 2013 01:42 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:39 city42 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play. Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand. Wait, what? I don't think you quite grasp the timings. Blink hits well before 4 phoenixes will be out, and he certainly won't have the energy to kill anywhere near 7 probes. I'm not the one that listed the timings.
Which phoenix build has 4 phoenixes in the opponent's base with the energy to kill 7 probes at 7:00? I'd love to steal it.
edit: for reference, a 4:15 stargate can have the fourth phoenix finishing right at 7:00, with the third one being halfway to the opponent's base and the first one having ~90 energy. This is with heavy chronoboost.
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Optimized phoenix builds have 3 phoenixes in opponent's main at 7:15 and a 4th at home done or close to done.
If you don't FF your ramp at 7:00-7:15 (when the stalkers show up), you will lose 99% of times assuming good level of play from both players.
So no VoiceSC, if you don't FF your ramp and your phoenixes are in your opponent's main, you will lose always.
For a good Phoenix vs blink pro-level game, you can check out this AWESOME analysis of HerO vs Rain ^^
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=391475#FG
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On January 19 2013 01:46 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:42 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 01:39 city42 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play. Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand. Wait, what? I don't think you quite grasp the timings. Blink hits well before 4 phoenixes will be out, and he certainly won't have the energy to kill anywhere near 7 probes. I'm not the one that listed the timings. Which phoenix build has 4 phoenixes in the opponent's base with the energy to kill 7 probes at 7:00? I'd love to steal it. edit: for reference, a 4:15 stargate can have the fourth phoenix finishing right at 7:00, with the third one being halfway to the opponent's base and the first one having ~90 energy. This is with heavy chronoboost.
Again, stop quoting me as if I was the one that said there will be 4 phoenixes at that time. I don't know the timings for phoenixes or blink stalkers.
What I said was based on what the other guy said. By the time, whenever it is, that you have 4 phoenix, you will have enough energy to kill about 6-7 probes
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On January 19 2013 02:16 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:46 city42 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:42 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 01:39 city42 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play. Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand. Wait, what? I don't think you quite grasp the timings. Blink hits well before 4 phoenixes will be out, and he certainly won't have the energy to kill anywhere near 7 probes. I'm not the one that listed the timings. Which phoenix build has 4 phoenixes in the opponent's base with the energy to kill 7 probes at 7:00? I'd love to steal it. edit: for reference, a 4:15 stargate can have the fourth phoenix finishing right at 7:00, with the third one being halfway to the opponent's base and the first one having ~90 energy. This is with heavy chronoboost. Again, stop quoting me as if I was the one that said there will be 4 phoenixes at that time. I don't know the timings for phoenixes or blink stalkers. What I said was based on what the other guy said. By the time, whenever it is, that you have 4 phoenix, you will have enough energy to kill about 6-7 probes
Even if he had enough energy to kill 26probes, he woud still lose the game if he let blink stalkers blink in his main at 7:10...
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On January 19 2013 02:16 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:46 city42 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:42 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 01:39 city42 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:On January 18 2013 23:52 probeater wrote:
if im going blink and i scout an early 2nd gas (16-17) what are my opponents options and how should i respond to each? The guy i faced went phoenix after 2nd fast gas but since my probe died i couldn't scout it. i wasn't sure what to do but by the time i blinked up in his base he already had 4phoenix picking up my probes over at mine.. what should i do instead? 2 gas before core usually indicates Stargate play, or Robo FE. If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play. Also probeater, typically when I see a 16 gas drops, it has turned into Stargate play. Also consider the map. If it's Daybreak, there is a greater chance of a phoenix build. If it is, say, Ohana, it's still leaning towards phoenix, but it could also be a robo expand. Wait, what? I don't think you quite grasp the timings. Blink hits well before 4 phoenixes will be out, and he certainly won't have the energy to kill anywhere near 7 probes. I'm not the one that listed the timings. Which phoenix build has 4 phoenixes in the opponent's base with the energy to kill 7 probes at 7:00? I'd love to steal it. edit: for reference, a 4:15 stargate can have the fourth phoenix finishing right at 7:00, with the third one being halfway to the opponent's base and the first one having ~90 energy. This is with heavy chronoboost. Again, stop quoting me as if I was the one that said there will be 4 phoenixes at that time. I don't know the timings for phoenixes or blink stalkers. What I said was based on what the other guy said. By the time, whenever it is, that you have 4 phoenix, you will have enough energy to kill about 6-7 probes
If you don't know the timings, you probably shouldn't have argued with someone (Geiko) who does. The fact that you would, at some point in the future, have enough energy on 4 phoenixes to kill 7 probes is completely irrelevant. The game would most likely be over well before that point.
It's important to sort this out because this thread serves to contain good advice for people who need it. Your post makes it seem as if stargate into robo is on equal footing against a 7:00 blink timing, which is preposterous.
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United States8477 Posts
I think what everyone is talking about is this quote:
On January 19 2013 01:14 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:18 Geiko wrote:
If you're blinking up his base and he has 4 phoenixes in your main, then you already won the game since he has no army at home ? If you are losing in this situation, it probably means you have a bad blink build. Pure blink builds finish blink at 7.00 - 7.10 with about 8 or 9 stalkers.At that point your opponent has something like 1 sentry, and 3 zealots at home (with an immortal on the way) and 3-4 phoenixes total. It's not a guaranteed win. If he has 4 phoenixes he can either A) Cripple your economy by taking out about 7 probes or B) Fly the Phoenix home and lift up your stalkers and kill them. Blink is a really micro intensive style of play.
The fact is that if a pure blink build is able to blink up a phoenix build's ramp, it IS a guaranteed win.
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alright thanks guys for the help! so i guess most of the time it will be phoenix and if i get my build good enough to hit aruond 7 minutes then i will win
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EPT
