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On January 17 2013 11:57 kuruptt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:54 VoiceSC wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool, or 12 hatch. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion. Wow thank you so much for your input, I was generally just looking for protoss but I will look into the zerg openings as well! Could you recommend me a guide/youtube for these openers on how to execute them? Would be great help. Thanks for your input though!
Which ones in particular would you like?
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On January 17 2013 12:11 kuruptt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:57 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. Thanks a lot for the links, it is very very helpful! Yeah I'm just going to play a bunch a games and perfect the build orders and get my macro down and see where it takes me. All these info has been a lot of help and I am going to work in 3 strategies against the 3 races. PvZ : Immortal sentry all in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.4PvP : 4 warpgate rush (To my understanding this is the strongest opener for pVp? Correct me if I'm wrong) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_RushPvT: The 1 mc gate FE like you suggested. This is fine right?
Yeah. Just work on your macro and the execution of the builds will get easier. Only thing I'd point out is that the MC gate fe requires you to be very active on the map with your stalkers to scout, which is pretty hard. Don't be afraid to 9 scout/build the robo before the nexus in the build if you're having trouble scouting/holding all-ins until you're more comfortable sending the stalkers out.
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Canada13379 Posts
On January 17 2013 14:28 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 12:11 kuruptt wrote:On January 17 2013 11:57 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. Thanks a lot for the links, it is very very helpful! Yeah I'm just going to play a bunch a games and perfect the build orders and get my macro down and see where it takes me. All these info has been a lot of help and I am going to work in 3 strategies against the 3 races. PvZ : Immortal sentry all in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.4PvP : 4 warpgate rush (To my understanding this is the strongest opener for pVp? Correct me if I'm wrong) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_RushPvT: The 1 mc gate FE like you suggested. This is fine right? Yeah. Just work on your macro and the execution of the builds will get easier. Only thing I'd point out is that the MC gate fe requires you to be very active on the map with your stalkers to scout, which is pretty hard. Don't be afraid to 9 scout/build the robo before the nexus in the build if you're having trouble scouting/holding all-ins until you're more comfortable sending the stalkers out.
I was told by Minigun to scout on 9 vs terran because knowing if they have gas or not is worth the money you dont get if they choose to wall in. If gas, 2 extra gates then robo, if not gas robo then 2 extra gates and more chrono on probes.
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On January 17 2013 14:36 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 14:28 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 12:11 kuruptt wrote:On January 17 2013 11:57 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. Thanks a lot for the links, it is very very helpful! Yeah I'm just going to play a bunch a games and perfect the build orders and get my macro down and see where it takes me. All these info has been a lot of help and I am going to work in 3 strategies against the 3 races. PvZ : Immortal sentry all in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.4PvP : 4 warpgate rush (To my understanding this is the strongest opener for pVp? Correct me if I'm wrong) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_RushPvT: The 1 mc gate FE like you suggested. This is fine right? Yeah. Just work on your macro and the execution of the builds will get easier. Only thing I'd point out is that the MC gate fe requires you to be very active on the map with your stalkers to scout, which is pretty hard. Don't be afraid to 9 scout/build the robo before the nexus in the build if you're having trouble scouting/holding all-ins until you're more comfortable sending the stalkers out. I was told by Minigun to scout on 9 vs terran because knowing if they have gas or not is worth the money you dont get if they choose to wall in. If gas, 2 extra gates then robo, if not gas robo then 2 extra gates and more chrono on probes.
If you aren't confident in your reads nor really benefit from the extra minerals at lower levels then 9 scouting is definitely worth the money. You can however ascertain whether or not they have a gas, especially on four player maps, by simply poking with a stalker and counting marines. They could time a bunker to make a 1/1/1 look like a 1 rax fe. Even then though, a lot of the dangerous factory based all-ins hit late enough that the more modern, faster fe's are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. It's really all just preference.
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On January 17 2013 14:53 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 14:36 ZeromuS wrote:On January 17 2013 14:28 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 12:11 kuruptt wrote:On January 17 2013 11:57 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. Thanks a lot for the links, it is very very helpful! Yeah I'm just going to play a bunch a games and perfect the build orders and get my macro down and see where it takes me. All these info has been a lot of help and I am going to work in 3 strategies against the 3 races. PvZ : Immortal sentry all in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.4PvP : 4 warpgate rush (To my understanding this is the strongest opener for pVp? Correct me if I'm wrong) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_RushPvT: The 1 mc gate FE like you suggested. This is fine right? Yeah. Just work on your macro and the execution of the builds will get easier. Only thing I'd point out is that the MC gate fe requires you to be very active on the map with your stalkers to scout, which is pretty hard. Don't be afraid to 9 scout/build the robo before the nexus in the build if you're having trouble scouting/holding all-ins until you're more comfortable sending the stalkers out. I was told by Minigun to scout on 9 vs terran because knowing if they have gas or not is worth the money you dont get if they choose to wall in. If gas, 2 extra gates then robo, if not gas robo then 2 extra gates and more chrono on probes. If you aren't confident in your reads nor really benefit from the extra minerals at lower levels then 9 scouting is definitely worth the money. You can however ascertain whether or not they have a gas, especially on four player maps, by simply poking with a stalker and counting marines. They could time a bunker to make a 1/1/1 look like a 1 rax fe. Even then though, a lot of the dangerous factory based all-ins hit late enough that the more modern, faster fe's are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. It's really all just preference.
This. A Stalker poke is enough to get decent information, although u have to practice this for it to be worthwhile. A bunker at the natural ramp also has different numbers of marines so u can count the number of shots ur stalker takes to determine whether it is a 1gate fe or a factory tech build, which is something that Eifer does. However, i recommend probe scouting until u at least masters, this is what i did as well.
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Italy12246 Posts
On January 17 2013 16:09 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 14:53 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 14:36 ZeromuS wrote:On January 17 2013 14:28 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 12:11 kuruptt wrote:On January 17 2013 11:57 rd wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. Thanks a lot for the links, it is very very helpful! Yeah I'm just going to play a bunch a games and perfect the build orders and get my macro down and see where it takes me. All these info has been a lot of help and I am going to work in 3 strategies against the 3 races. PvZ : Immortal sentry all in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.4PvP : 4 warpgate rush (To my understanding this is the strongest opener for pVp? Correct me if I'm wrong) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_RushPvT: The 1 mc gate FE like you suggested. This is fine right? Yeah. Just work on your macro and the execution of the builds will get easier. Only thing I'd point out is that the MC gate fe requires you to be very active on the map with your stalkers to scout, which is pretty hard. Don't be afraid to 9 scout/build the robo before the nexus in the build if you're having trouble scouting/holding all-ins until you're more comfortable sending the stalkers out. I was told by Minigun to scout on 9 vs terran because knowing if they have gas or not is worth the money you dont get if they choose to wall in. If gas, 2 extra gates then robo, if not gas robo then 2 extra gates and more chrono on probes. If you aren't confident in your reads nor really benefit from the extra minerals at lower levels then 9 scouting is definitely worth the money. You can however ascertain whether or not they have a gas, especially on four player maps, by simply poking with a stalker and counting marines. They could time a bunker to make a 1/1/1 look like a 1 rax fe. Even then though, a lot of the dangerous factory based all-ins hit late enough that the more modern, faster fe's are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. It's really all just preference. This. A Stalker poke is enough to get decent information, although u have to practice this for it to be worthwhile. A bunker at the natural ramp also has different numbers of marines so u can count the number of shots ur stalker takes to determine whether it is a 1gate fe or a factory tech build, which is something that Eifer does. However, i recommend probe scouting until u at least masters, this is what i did as well.
The other thing is, Minigun's opening changes heavily based on the scouting information he gets with his probe (he goes 1 gate fe straight into robo). On the other hand, some openings like kcdc's don't variate until later so it's fine to also get a later read on the terran with a stalker poke, or a second probe poke.
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On January 17 2013 11:57 kuruptt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:54 VoiceSC wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool, or 12 hatch. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion. Wow thank you so much for your input, I was generally just looking for protoss but I will look into the zerg openings as well! Could you recommend me a guide/youtube for these openers on how to execute them? Would be great help. Thanks for your input though!
Your misquoting me on the ZvZ openers - 12 hatch? You crazy?
But especially if you're new to the game, I would suggest messing around with all of the races. I prefer to play protoss when I'm not playing seriously, and terran in some team games. Remember- the point is to have fun - it's a game after all.
Look at the Zerg Help Me Thread for a link to my guides. Ask any Zerg questions here.
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I really like going zealot before core pressure into expand into 3 gate blink robo. (vT) It's been very viable on blink friendly maps, but is this even a thing? Are there any pro games anyone has seen where this has been done? 2 base blink harass into colossus or double forge charge?
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On January 17 2013 23:10 mizU wrote:
I really like going zealot before core pressure into expand into 3 gate blink robo. (vT) It's been very viable on blink friendly maps, but is this even a thing? Are there any pro games anyone has seen where this has been done? 2 base blink harass into colossus or double forge charge?
Can we see some replays of this action? I've been trying to work on some heavy stalker play for Antiga, recently. And in general, I'm trying to work blink traps (out on the map) into my vs Terran play, since it's good to know a multitude of styles.
I know that Squirtle basically blink-contained someone for an entire game, on Cloud Kingdom, in his Up and Down matches a week ago. Normally a contain ends when that 10 min Medivac/Stim timing kicks in, but he managed to keep the Terran in his base for like 15-20 minutes. Have you seen that game?
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On January 17 2013 22:57 Glon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:57 kuruptt wrote:On January 17 2013 11:54 VoiceSC wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion. Wow thank you so much for your input, I was generally just looking for protoss but I will look into the zerg openings as well! Could you recommend me a guide/youtube for these openers on how to execute them? Would be great help. Thanks for your input though! Your misquoting me on the ZvZ openers - 12 hatch? You crazy? But especially if you're new to the game, I would suggest messing around with all of the races. I prefer to play protoss when I'm not playing seriously, and terran in some team games. Remember- the point is to have fun - it's a game after all. Look at the Zerg Help Me Thread for a link to my guides. Ask any Zerg questions here.
I was not quoting you at all, Glon. What I was saying was those were what I thought were standard openers. The reason I said look at Glon's Guide was because I knew you knew what was right and to go there for confirmation. I read your guides and have watched some recent ZvZs, so I thought I had it right. I'm sorry that I got it wrong. Did not intend to put the wrong information.
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On January 17 2013 23:10 mizU wrote:
I really like going zealot before core pressure into expand into 3 gate blink robo. (vT) It's been very viable on blink friendly maps, but is this even a thing? Are there any pro games anyone has seen where this has been done? 2 base blink harass into colossus or double forge charge?
I haven't tried going 3gate blink robo but ive been going zealot b4 core pressure and i think it's great. Worst case scenario is that u get a very good scout, best case scenario is that u completely screw them over and u end up very ahead (this doesn't happen often tho against good players, unless u catch them completely by surprise). I follow it up with a 1gate FE and into 2 gate robo then do a fake immortal all in while taking a 3rd with 4 gates and a robo. During the fake all in I build a forge and a robo bay and as long as u don't lose ur army while pressuring (this requires u to back off at the perfect time), it delays them enough for u to get ur 3rd base pretty safely and colossi out by the time they counter attack.
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On January 17 2013 23:45 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 23:10 mizU wrote:
I really like going zealot before core pressure into expand into 3 gate blink robo. (vT) It's been very viable on blink friendly maps, but is this even a thing? Are there any pro games anyone has seen where this has been done? 2 base blink harass into colossus or double forge charge? Can we see some replays of this action? I've been trying to work on some heavy stalker play for Antiga, recently. And in general, I'm trying to work blink traps (out on the map) into my vs Terran play, since it's good to know a multitude of styles. I know that Squirtle basically blink-contained someone for an entire game, on Cloud Kingdom, in his Up and Down matches a week ago. Normally a contain ends when that 10 min Medivac/Stim timing kicks in, but he managed to keep the Terran in his base for like 15-20 minutes. Have you seen that game?
http://drop.sc/296076
stalker harass was a little delayed because of the marine push, but you get the idea
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On January 17 2013 11:54 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool, or 12 hatch. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion.
I looove my FEs vs T (rubbed off Naniwa maybe), and I use and have used many variants.
16 Nexus isn't good IMO. I understand you're metagaming to a degree, but you're asking for trouble, especially on 2 player maps.
Marauder Hellion allin outright crushes this build. The safest way (IMO) to Nexus first is to get a Forge and cannon.
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Also, 9 scouting is just plain bad IMO Master's and up. You're automstically at a disadvantage in quite a few typical scenarios. At this level you should be adopting much greedier builds, and making reads with your initial Gateway units.
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On January 18 2013 09:51 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 11:54 VoiceSC wrote:On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote:
I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race?
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool, or 12 hatch. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion. I looove my FEs vs T (rubbed off Naniwa maybe), and I use and have used many variants. 16 Nexus isn't good IMO. I understand you're metagaming to a degree, but you're asking for trouble, especially on 2 player maps. Marauder Hellion allin outright crushes this build. The safest way (IMO) to Nexus first is to get a Forge and cannon.
Hey! I have mega trouble against terran at the moment, I have never won a game yet against them and I am a silver league player. I've been just doing all in's against zerg and protoss and it has been working quite well if I execute it properly ( I need more practice but its definitely fun and more fast then playing zerg and going into the macro game -_-)
Anyways terran is my worst matchup. I've been following Mc's 1 gate FE but I feel as if its to complicated for me. Is this the best opener against terran? I'm mostly dying to mass marines + medivacs or mauraders. How do I go about to expanding and what should i be building against them? Is there a guide to this or a video where I can watch? I know I'm still pretty noob at protoss especially during the mid and late game. I have no idea where to go about. I just build collosus and spam stalkers but I still get raped by mass marines.
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Practice your macro. Never get supply blocked. Stick with one base builds for the moment (do a 4 gate colossus attack, 4 gate warp prism attack, things like that).
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Do you have guides for that? I just lose it at the mid game having no idea how to build my army.
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On January 18 2013 09:14 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 23:45 ineversmile wrote:On January 17 2013 23:10 mizU wrote:
I really like going zealot before core pressure into expand into 3 gate blink robo. (vT) It's been very viable on blink friendly maps, but is this even a thing? Are there any pro games anyone has seen where this has been done? 2 base blink harass into colossus or double forge charge? Can we see some replays of this action? I've been trying to work on some heavy stalker play for Antiga, recently. And in general, I'm trying to work blink traps (out on the map) into my vs Terran play, since it's good to know a multitude of styles. I know that Squirtle basically blink-contained someone for an entire game, on Cloud Kingdom, in his Up and Down matches a week ago. Normally a contain ends when that 10 min Medivac/Stim timing kicks in, but he managed to keep the Terran in his base for like 15-20 minutes. Have you seen that game? http://drop.sc/296076stalker harass was a little delayed because of the marine push, but you get the idea
Now I see what you are talking about. That Z-Z-S boosted pressure looked pretty classy. you could have even gotten away with the zealots, if you wanted, and killed a handful of workers/delayed the expo/the bunker all basically for free. Even still, it was a good trade for you, and it's also just good information to see what the terran is doing and how many marines he has at that point. I might try this sometime soon.
I liked the blink trap into the main to snipe the starport. I think, with a bit of refining and practice, that could be an even more efficient and devastating maneuver. It really reminded me of PvP blink play, in a positive way.
I wonder how this goes against a more marauder-heavy composition, like 3rax 2 techlab-->starport. (I think that's how the build goes? I don't know the exact order of some variations of the 1rax fe.) What's the response/follow up for that?
On January 18 2013 09:54 Gumbi wrote:
Also, 9 scouting is just plain bad IMO Master's and up. You're automstically at a disadvantage in quite a few typical scenarios. At this level you should be adopting much greedier builds, and making reads with your initial Gateway units.
9 scouting is fine if you open Nexus first. In PvT, 9 scouting lets you get in before a potential depot block keeps you out. Then you see gas or no gas, and you can decide if you still want to Nexus first or if instead you want to 14-15 gate.
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On January 17 2013 14:53 rd wrote:
If you aren't confident in your reads nor really benefit from the extra minerals at lower levels then 9 scouting is definitely worth the money. You can however ascertain whether or not they have a gas, especially on four player maps, by simply poking with a stalker and counting marines. They could time a bunker to make a 1/1/1 look like a 1 rax fe. Even then though, a lot of the dangerous factory based all-ins hit late enough that the more modern, faster fe's are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. It's really all just preference.
Well depends on these factory based all-ins. Do they incorporate some kind of early pressure where you can't scout it on time? If they don't, then yeah your FE are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. However, if they do incorporate some kind of early pressure before you can scout it with your observer, you can lose the game outright.
On January 17 2013 16:09 blooblooblahblah wrote:
This. A Stalker poke is enough to get decent information, although u have to practice this for it to be worthwhile. A bunker at the natural ramp also has different numbers of marines so u can count the number of shots ur stalker takes to determine whether it is a 1gate fe or a factory tech build, which is something that Eifer does. However, i recommend probe scouting until u at least masters, this is what i did as well.
Care to tell us the marine count for FE and gas builds when they have a bunker? What if Terran played deceptive and hid some marines to trick you? By the time your stalker is out and moves to Terran's base, they will have 4 or more marines. 4 marines in a bunker is plenty to deny a stalker unless you are willing to sacrifice it. There's so many options for Terran in early game I would honestly recommend everyone to just 9 scout. If you see 1 rax no gas FE, you can get a faster nexus by canceling your Zealot and throwing down a nexus. If you see rax then gas, well you can react with w/e ideal build you have against that. And if you scout gas then rax, you can quickly respond by saving chronos and chrono out 2 zealots and a stalker to do a lot of damage. With 9 scout, you quickly see an possible proxy rax builds from Terran it gives you SOO MUCH TIME to react against it
On January 18 2013 09:54 Gumbi wrote:
Also, 9 scouting is just plain bad IMO Master's and up. You're automstically at a disadvantage in quite a few typical scenarios. At this level you should be adopting much greedier builds, and making reads with your initial Gateway units.
Such an awful assumption to think it's plain bad. How are you automatically at a disadvantage? You have faster reads of what Terran does. I'm pretty sure everyone hates facing a very deceptive Terran so getting those faster reads is very beneficial for the Protoss player. No. At this "level", you should be adopting builds that you feel safe/comfortable with, and modifying them to what you read on however you read your opponent. Personally I think 9 scout is the best in PvT. 9 Scout allows you to play greedy but safe cause of what you scouted. Any other scout later that has a greedy opening is risky since it's blind.
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EPT
