EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 399
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On January 14 2013 23:31 Salivanth wrote: I should clarify: My question was referring to double forge into fast colossi: Fast enough to have 1 out to defend the stim-medivac timing with. The style linked in the original post gets a Robo Bay at 11:25, and I'm pretty sure I've heard of players getting the robo bay a lot faster. Or is the style Robo Bay into fast double forge? I can't remember now... If you read the last few pages of that guide, you'll see that adaptations have been made to the build to account for the 10 minute marine timings. That being said, it's still one of the hardest builds to defend this particular timing with and even with the adjustments, you still won't have a colossi out in time by 10 minutes. Robo bay into fast double forge is an entirely different build. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 13 2013 12:14 alQahira wrote: Right, my point is I've already got the build orders down vs no-one pretty well, but I'm having trouble executing them versus not-no-one. So how do I improve other than just playing tons of games, which seems inefficient. Plus since I'm thinking about so many things I'm not really carefully focusing on improving certain things. What I would really love would be a way I could practice playing a game starting at the 12 min mark with a big battle coming up where I can just try macroing while fighting over and over. Theres a set amount of games required before someone reaches a point of automation, no matter how efficient. In your case it's basic execution. No matter how well practiced, how automated it's become, it'll all go out the window when you're put in a position you have little to no experience in. Only real way to fix it is to play a lot and experience enough to become comfortable with those situations; i.e., play it alot vs real opponents. When you don't know what you're doing/aren't comfortable you'll regress to what you know best, and chances are what you really know best is less than ideal, likely even hazardous for that situation. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On January 13 2013 11:22 alQahira wrote: Mid-high Platinum Protoss here with an MMR of around 1240. In a game without any opponent I can macro pretty well and max out around 15 min, with upgrades, and following a pretty normal build order (Taking around a 9 min third. Obviously not perfect macro, but good enough as a baseline). However, my macro falls apart when in contact with the real world. Any specific maps or practice methods you guys recommend to improve multitasking/APM? I'm hovering right around 50-55 at the moment, and SC2gears says that 40-45 of that is EAPM. You're wasting too much time thinking about ranking and other irrelevant statistics when you should be looking at the mechanics themselves. Stop thinking about your position in Platinum, stop even thinking about the league you're in, stop thinking about your APM, and stop thinking about your EPM. None of that is relevant to what happens in each game you play, specifically. What matters is the fine details of your mechanics: Do you have gaps in production? Do you have gaps between warp-ins? Do you build buildings when they need to be built? Do you have good army control? Do you position your army well, before and during fights? Do you have good building placement? Your fundamentals are the target for which to strive. You have enough problems to worry about, without bringing in things like APM and EPM and ladder ranking. APM and EPM is a measure of finger speed, and ladder ranking is a measurement of winning against random strangers on the internet. All 3 of those statistics can be improved, but not if your focus is in thinking about upping your APM in games. It's not how that works. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
Even 15-20 Cannons and 10 Storms are not enough against a decent Zerg. And more you can't fit into one place. Does anyone here have a VOD or Replay of a Protoss _winning_ not a Zerg losing by being stupid and taking Protoss' fourth over and over again as his own fourth, eventually dying due to going complete retard but a Protoss WINNING against that? I have never seen anything like it I have never done anything like it and none of my friends has ever heard/seen/done anything like it. So now I am asking TL for help. But please try to make sure it is actually the Protoss winning and not Zerg messing up in a major way, I have seen a thousand of those already. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
I usually try to build a ton of cannons and bring a couple of probes and a warpprism with my army. As well as stick some probes in the prism. I also block off ramps completly when i move out and keep 4 hts with storms with my base and like 6 with my army. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On January 15 2013 03:29 ineversmile wrote: You're wasting too much time thinking about ranking and other irrelevant statistics when you should be looking at the mechanics themselves. Stop thinking about your position in Platinum, stop even thinking about the league you're in, stop thinking about your APM, and stop thinking about your EPM. None of that is relevant to what happens in each game you play, specifically. What matters is the fine details of your mechanics: Do you have gaps in production? Do you have gaps between warp-ins? Do you build buildings when they need to be built? Do you have good army control? Do you position your army well, before and during fights? Do you have good building placement? Your fundamentals are the target for which to strive. You have enough problems to worry about, without bringing in things like APM and EPM and ladder ranking. APM and EPM is a measure of finger speed, and ladder ranking is a measurement of winning against random strangers on the internet. All 3 of those statistics can be improved, but not if your focus is in thinking about upping your APM in games. It's not how that works. pretty much this. Working on your macro is the base for improving your mmr and other online statistics. Honestly the most important part is to keep on playing. I only play against computers if im trying a new build just to get the first 5 minutes ironed out. I do this like 5 games then go play. After i play with the strategy a lot Ill look at the build again maybe a month later to see if im hitting everything i need to be hitting. oops double post | ||
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--Zom--
19 Posts
Mind taking a look at this replay and telling me any improvements I could make? http://drop.sc/294868 I've just come back to Starcraft 2 after not playing since release, I tried to play Zerg for a while but couldnt get a hang of it at all! After playing around with Protoss for a bit against the AI, I've fallen in love with the race. This is the first game I played on the ladder, in Bronze league, against another Protoss. I did win, but after having watched the replay there were a few mistakes I noticed, and wondered if you guys could point out a few more things I could work on to tidy it up  The build I was going for was something similiar to what dApollo went with in his youtube video. Thanks, Zom | ||
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
On January 14 2013 23:31 Salivanth wrote: I should clarify: My question was referring to double forge into fast colossi: Fast enough to have 1 out to defend the stim-medivac timing with. The style linked in the original post gets a Robo Bay at 11:25, and I'm pretty sure I've heard of players getting the robo bay a lot faster. Or is the style Robo Bay into fast double forge? I can't remember now... I think it more likely he was referring to my post, the likely report that ensued, and the warning I received from a moderator. Funny thing is, the section of the guide gives great detail on how the roach all in works, and gives examples of it, but in comparison not a great deal of information on how to exactly read it, and the "switch to this build" to deal with it. It basically says "make units, get to 3 base fast around 8 mins and make more units and pray you hold on behind a sim city wall off." I'd like a bit more than that. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On January 15 2013 05:40 Grimmyman123 wrote: I think it more likely he was referring to my post, the likely report that ensued, and the warning I received from a moderator. Funny thing is, the section of the guide gives great detail on how the roach all in works, and gives examples of it, but in comparison not a great deal of information on how to exactly read it, and the "switch to this build" to deal with it. It basically says "make units, get to 3 base fast around 8 mins and make more units and pray you hold on behind a sim city wall off." I'd like a bit more than that. You need to read it more closely. There's a whole section on how to read builds and what builds are good against it. You can't "switch to this build" to deal with it, because you'll scout it only after you've committed to a build. How good that build is against a roach max in addition to how good your execution of the build is will determine if you survive. | ||
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
Zergs frustrate the heck out of me... I probably have a 30 or 40 percent win rate vs zergs, most of those losses are "supposed" all ins, but even if I hold the "all in" I am the one further behind, and I end up losing later in the game anyways. Alternatively, if I manage to get to late game, I harrass to kingdom come, kill 3 or more hatches, kill tech, but they still manage broodlord infestors, and endgame army to endgame army I still lose, badly at that. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
-shrug- easy wins for me I guess speaking of which tonight was my first sc2 in..half a year or so, give or take. Back after a long time. First 5 games are: Marine/Marauder Stim all in (beat with forcefields, counterattack), no gg Zergling all in (lost because I took too long to counter-all in and didn't FF the ramp, my bad, gg'd) a zerg that left as soon as the game started a zerg that saw that I was doing a 1gateway expand and decided to roach all in me (?????), guess who won, no gg a toss that went all in once I scouted his phoenix, forcefields win the game again, no gg ahhhh sc2, you're still the same game :D it's funny since all those games together are shorter than 1 game of Dota 2 regarding the pvp game where I scouted him going phoenix - what's the usual response to phoenix vs phoenix? he had no idea that I was going phoenix, but I'm wondering what my response should've been. Honestly I lucked out big time by sniping his obs with my own and scouting his all in, but had I not scouted it I nearly went double Stargate phoenix production and then I would've been proper fucked when the all in came since I wouldn't have had enough gas for constant forcefielding | ||
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Hotdawg
United States5 Posts
On January 15 2013 05:59 Grimmyman123 wrote: I'm reading my brains out right now. Only a few hours to go. Zergs frustrate the heck out of me... I probably have a 30 or 40 percent win rate vs zergs, most of those losses are "supposed" all ins, but even if I hold the "all in" I am the one further behind, and I end up losing later in the game anyways. Alternatively, if I manage to get to late game, I harrass to kingdom come, kill 3 or more hatches, kill tech, but they still manage broodlord infestors, and endgame army to endgame army I still lose, badly at that. It is a frustrating matchup for sure sometimes. If the zerg all ins you and they end up ahead, it was successful. An all-in doesn't necessarily need to kill you to be worthwhile, it only needs to do enough damage to put them ahead. A replay or two would be helpful as your question is very broad. However, I still recommend really good scouting (especially early-Check gases and hatcheries). And working on final engagements in a unit tester with a friend. Make sure you have that mothership for the vortex! | ||
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Hotdawg
United States5 Posts
On January 15 2013 06:09 hooahah wrote: regarding the pvp game where I scouted him going phoenix - what's the usual response to phoenix vs phoenix? he had no idea that I was going phoenix, but I'm wondering what my response should've been. Honestly I lucked out big time by sniping his obs with my own and scouting his all in, but had I not scouted it I nearly went double Stargate phoenix production and then I would've been proper fucked when the all in came since I wouldn't have had enough gas for constant forcefielding Phoenix v Phoenix really does just come down to who has more phoenix. Although some may argue, I feel double stargate is definitely the best response once on two bases. Also note that someone on this very forum did some testing a while back and the +1 defense air upgrade is far superior to the +1 attack (at least in early stages). If you have more phoenix than him you should be able to win with very few ground units. Just make sure you know where his army is. Phoenix are fast so you shouldn't have a problem scouting him. Also, don't forget about the range upgrade for phoenix. If it ends up in a weird stalemate somehow that upgrade can be an insta-win. | ||
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Hotdawg
United States5 Posts
On January 15 2013 05:22 --Zom-- wrote: Hey guys, Mind taking a look at this replay and telling me any improvements I could make? http://drop.sc/294868 I've just come back to Starcraft 2 after not playing since release, I tried to play Zerg for a while but couldnt get a hang of it at all! After playing around with Protoss for a bit against the AI, I've fallen in love with the race. This is the first game I played on the ladder, in Bronze league, against another Protoss. I did win, but after having watched the replay there were a few mistakes I noticed, and wondered if you guys could point out a few more things I could work on to tidy it up The build I was going for was something similiar to what dApollo went with in his youtube video. Thanks, Zom Welcome back to SC2. =) You definitely outplayed that guy. Anyways, let's focus on you. First of all I feel you had a pretty solid game but could have laid down your production buildings just a little earlier. You cancelled your zealot and then waited for your cybercore to finish and then just started the zealot over. Once cybercore is done you may as well get a stalker imo. You know he's not going to 4gate or anything because he threw down a forge first for some reason. Which brings up another point- You can scout the hell out of him because he literally had ZERO attacking units or cannons until like 8 minutes in. If you put a probe in his base on patrol move in a circle he would never be able to kill it. Regardless, for a bronze level game you played it very well. I'm not trying to make a wall of text so I'll just say this: Focus on perfecting builds (putting buildings down at certain exact supply numbers). And probes + pylons and you will be climbing the ladder like a beast in no time. | ||
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--Zom--
19 Posts
On January 15 2013 06:57 Hotdawg wrote: Welcome back to SC2. =) You definitely outplayed that guy. Anyways, let's focus on you. First of all I feel you had a pretty solid game but could have laid down your production buildings just a little earlier. You cancelled your zealot and then waited for your cybercore to finish and then just started the zealot over. Once cybercore is done you may as well get a stalker imo. You know he's not going to 4gate or anything because he threw down a forge first for some reason. Which brings up another point- You can scout the hell out of him because he literally had ZERO attacking units or cannons until like 8 minutes in. If you put a probe in his base on patrol move in a circle he would never be able to kill it. Regardless, for a bronze level game you played it very well. I'm not trying to make a wall of text so I'll just say this: Focus on perfecting builds (putting buildings down at certain exact supply numbers). And probes + pylons and you will be climbing the ladder like a beast in no time. Cheers dude The zealot was a precautionary measure, as I noticed his pylon in my base and wanted to make sure he didn't get a cannon up aswell. Although I see where you're coming from with the stalker suggestion. Should I have continued with the zealot do you think as a safety measure? I didn't even think to leave a probe in there until he decided to make attacking units, I figured just get in, check stuff out, then get out. I did expect units to be coming so I figured I'd just fall back, sit on my 2 and tech to Collossi as I want to avoid Skytoss for the time being and just get my macro solid, before I need to focus on Microing Pheonix around. Is Robo acceptable before dropping my 2nd and 3rd Gates? Thanks, Zom | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
Sorry if this has been asked many times before. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On January 15 2013 17:26 kuruptt wrote: Hey guys, first time sc2 player here (Only been playing for 3 days). I have read some guides here and there but I generally can't find a guide for GENERAL PvX matchups. I am only in the bronze league right now so I don't want to get into to much complicated strategies or what not. I am wondering what is the best general opener for each race? What units should I go for? Sorry if this has been asked many times before. Just copy one solid build per matchup, trying to start from the simplest possible ones. I recommend: PvP: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_Rush PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.1 PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233968 There's plenty of guides for more complicated builds, but i think it's best to start with simple all-ins (not everyone agrees on this). For general overviews of the matchups, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_PvP_Strategy, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_PvT_Strategy, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_PvZ_Strategy | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
On January 15 2013 17:38 Teoita wrote: Just copy one solid build per matchup, trying to start from the simplest possible ones. I recommend: PvP: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_Rush PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.1 PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233968 There's plenty of guides for more complicated builds, but i think it's best to start with simple all-ins (not everyone agrees on this). For general overviews of the matchups, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_PvP_Strategy, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_PvT_Strategy, http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/General_PvZ_Strategy Awesome, thanks a lot of this! If anyone else has any recommendations feel free to do so! | ||
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