EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 400
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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hooahah
3752 Posts
I'd start with constant probe production (until saturation) and then trying to spend your money. As long as you can keep your bank below 1000/1000 you should be on your way to Silver in no time. | ||
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ToXSiK
United States83 Posts
I've watched a lot of creator prime PvT and have been trying to copy his one 'Macro' colossus as so many people have dubbed it, but I still find myself losing very much to midgame 2-2 bio/viking (usually with out ghosts) timings before i have a decent HT w/ storm count. A few of my friend have suggested I try templar first, but I really would like to learn colossus builds before I do that as I've read templar is pretty much a build order loss versus ghost and you only have 1-2 storms so they have to be perfect. So my questions are basically: 1) How do I know when it is safe to take my third? (Currently my thought process is if they are going for 10 min medivacs, I go up to 6 gates and establish a decent army and take my third when they do, and if I see fast 3 cc I take my third off of 3 gateways - Is this correct?) 2) I've found when terran sees my transition to templar, they immediately start dropping me and I often lose many probes to this, should I leave stalkers in my main or cannon up my bases with an HT or what is the best response to this? 3) I've read a lot about peoples opinions on how many colossus to get before transitioning to HT. Some say 1 w/ no range, 1 w/ range, 2 w/ range, or 3 w/ range, what would be the safest for someone like me who literally knows nothing of the matchup and just wants to get to the lategame so I can learn more? Ok, I know it's a lot of questions, but thanks for any input you give me! | ||
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Mugya
36 Posts
On January 16 2013 01:17 ToXSiK wrote: Hi everyone, I recently switched to protoss and have been slowly breaking into GM with it, however I am having a lot of trouble in PvT. I don't struggle versus 1-1-1 or really any type of 2 rax all in or anything, it's actually macro that's been owning me a lot. I've watched a lot of creator prime PvT and have been trying to copy his one 'Macro' colossus as so many people have dubbed it, but I still find myself losing very much to midgame 2-2 bio/viking (usually with out ghosts) timings before i have a decent HT w/ storm count. A few of my friend have suggested I try templar first, but I really would like to learn colossus builds before I do that as I've read templar is pretty much a build order loss versus ghost and you only have 1-2 storms so they have to be perfect. So my questions are basically: 1) How do I know when it is safe to take my third? (Currently my thought process is if they are going for 10 min medivacs, I go up to 6 gates and establish a decent army and take my third when they do, and if I see fast 3 cc I take my third off of 3 gateways - Is this correct?) 2) I've found when terran sees my transition to templar, they immediately start dropping me and I often lose many probes to this, should I leave stalkers in my main or cannon up my bases with an HT or what is the best response to this? 3) I've read a lot about peoples opinions on how many colossus to get before transitioning to HT. Some say 1 w/ no range, 1 w/ range, 2 w/ range, or 3 w/ range, what would be the safest for someone like me who literally knows nothing of the matchup and just wants to get to the lategame so I can learn more? Ok, I know it's a lot of questions, but thanks for any input you give me! 1) If you're talking about the current flow of the game, then you would take your third after you push away the 10 min Stim/Medivac timing push. However you choose to stop that push is really up to your style, but since you're doing the macro Colossus, just have good positioning and the drops won't do much damage. If he chooses not to push around this time, then just go ahead and take your third based on what you see with your Observer in his base. 2) It would help if you had a replay, but in general, you don't want to get Templar until after you get your upgrades and/or Colossus first unless you're only getting that one Colossus to defend the push. Good general map awareness with your watch tower and Observers around the map help a great deal in defending against drops, regardless of what point in time it happens. 3) If you're just starting with the match-up, don't worry too much about High Templars at your stage of learning. Just go up to 3-4 Colossi (going for more than that not only takes a lot of money but also leaves you prone to being hard countered by him making a ton of Vikings) and work on staying on par/ahead in upgrades and you should do fine without Templar. You can play up to Master's without worrying about High Templar, but that's not to say HTs aren't good; just start off getting comfortable making Colossi and Chrono Boosting out the upgrades and you should improve. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
2) Colossus openings commonly get Blink before Charge to deal with drops more easily. The lack of Templar/Cannons in the main means you do have to leave a group of stalkers (usually 6, as they will 2shot a medivac) to deal with potential drops. However, the most important thing is vision; these days it's very common to use 3 observers and eventually go up to 4-5 to see as much of the map as possible. Regarding cannons, i usually add 1-2 depending on the map when i take my third. For instance, on Cloud Kingdom i make one cannon in my nat, while on Antiga i make two in my main. Eventually i leave 2-3 cannons and a templar at two between my main/third/nat (again, depending on map architecture) for defense, as well as a few random extra templar all over the map. 3) Either 3 with range or one with no range. One with no range to hold medivac pushes is pretty much a two base templar build (you get your twilight council when +1 armor is halfway done, then start charge/+2/Archives and take a third); true colossus builds often cut at three and they are getting less common in the pro scene due to the 2/2 viking timing you talk about, as it can hit before storm even completes if done well. I have seen some Kespa Protoss doing lots of double forge and getting as many as 4 colossi while maxing on archon/stlaker/zealot/colossus and delaying storm (off the top of my head, Jangbi, Terminator and Rain all did it in Proleague), but none of them has ever been up against that viking timing (i think) so i don't know how they deal with it. Regarding 2base templar, ghost timings aren't nearly as effective anymore due to the EMP nerf (if that's what you mean), plus basically everyone does 3cc, medivac timings or rarely some 2base tech build so you shouldn't be too concerned about ghost pushes. Fast templar are actually stronger defensively than Colossus openings, because it's much harder for the Terran to push into a third or nat defended by well positioned and split ht's than it is for them to run in with Vikings and kill all your Colossi. @poster above me: Toxsik is a GM zerg. I'm pretty sure he needs to get HT's at his level  | ||
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ToXSiK
United States83 Posts
On January 16 2013 02:54 Teoita wrote: 1) Yes, your thought process is correct. 2) Colossus openings commonly get Blink before Charge to deal with drops more easily. The lack of Templar/Cannons in the main means you do have to leave a group of stalkers (usually 6, as they will 2shot a medivac) to deal with potential drops. However, the most important thing is vision; these days it's very common to use 3 observers and eventually go up to 4-5 to see as much of the map as possible. Regarding cannons, i usually add 1-2 depending on the map when i take my third. For instance, on Cloud Kingdom i make one cannon in my nat, while on Antiga i make two in my main. Eventually i leave 2-3 cannons and a templar at two between my main/third/nat (again, depending on map architecture) for defense, as well as a few random extra templar all over the map. 3) Either 3 with range or one with no range. One with no range to hold medivac pushes is pretty much a two base templar build (you get your twilight council when +1 armor is halfway done, then start charge/+2/Archives and take a third); true colossus builds often cut at three and they are getting less common in the pro scene due to the 2/2 viking timing you talk about, as it can hit before storm even completes if done well. I have seen some Kespa Protoss doing lots of double forge and getting as many as 4 colossi while maxing on archon/stlaker/zealot/colossus and delaying storm (off the top of my head, Jangbi, Terminator and Rain all did it in Proleague), but none of them has ever been up against that viking timing (i think) so i don't know how they deal with it. Regarding 2base templar, ghost timings aren't nearly as effective anymore due to the EMP nerf (if that's what you mean), plus basically everyone does 3cc, medivac timings or rarely some 2base tech build so you shouldn't be too concerned about ghost pushes. Fast templar are actually stronger defensively than Colossus openings, because it's much harder for the Terran to push into a third or nat defended by well positioned and split ht's than it is for them to run in with Vikings and kill all your Colossi. @poster above me: Toxsik is a GM zerg. I'm pretty sure he needs to get HT's at his level Ah, cool, so much info thanks! And alright, once BNET is back up on NA I'll try doing one colo with no range into HT's again, I think I will do it with only 1 singular forge at first for armor upgrades. And yeah, I was loving the three colossus build but that 2-2 viking timing before you have storm is killer, and good terrans seem to easily identify this and execute that build as a pretty much hard counter. Here's what I'll try: 1 gate fe / 3 gate robo / 7:30ish robo bay + forge / 1 colo + 1 armor / twilight and take third or add gates / templar archives storm +2 and another forge and play the late game out this way? I;ve found that adding colo back in when you're on 3 base economy seems to be a good timing to start doing that. Any thoughts? Thanks so much ! | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
A great player to study for the 3base colossus switch is Rain; he does a great job of buying time in key moments with warp pins and storm drops. His game vs Taeja on Antiga from GSL is particularly good. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
You're obviously a capable player; it'll probably be a lot easier for you once you learn to position some extra observers at a spot where you would normally put an overlord. Maybe put them on patrol, so they can catch a bigger area as they come in. You can also use proxy pylons out on the map, or patrol a probe/zealot to see them coming in from afar. I would rather spend 50 or 100 minerals and make them unload to kill that unit/pylon, than to have them come into my base unnoticed and kill more than that with the drop. My $.02. Hope it helps. | ||
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
I go Gate, then Nexus (at 2.50 if you're microing Probes correctly). Pylon at nat to stop Bunkers. Scout with Probe. Get Assim at around 100 mins, then Core ASAP after it. You should have exactly 50 gas as the Core finishes, start wg, chrono as necessary (base off scouting). I make 2 Zealots, use one chrono on Gate. Often Terrans think I'm doing Nexus first and try to Bunker rush, these 2 Zealots help very well vs it. But the man reason I get 2 Zealots (one chrono) is because the Core is slightly delayed. I just feel like Gate Core Stalker, 13 scout hurt Toss eco-wise vs 1 Rax FE (much later scout due to late arrival of Toss ranged unit). | ||
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FollowKronborg
Finland21 Posts
Every opening has its weaknesses and strengths; comes down to your preference. | ||
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ToXSiK
United States83 Posts
On January 16 2013 04:54 ineversmile wrote: I would just like to add one thing for you, Toxsik: You're probably really accustomed to having overlords out on the map to scout incoming drops, and then having a really fast ling army and then either mutas or infestors to punish drop play. Basically, that stuff has been built into zerg lair play over the last couple of years of zergs playing against bio. So what might help you is to think of emulating what zerg does to handle drops so well: Have vision of drops on their way to your base so you have time to react. Have a mobile force (chargelots or blink stalkers, depending on which is better for the map) ready to pounce on the incoming drop. And then having the right number of Stalkers/HT to punish the drop, making it so that the terran takes a loss and has to think about stopping his drop play because it's losing him money. You're obviously a capable player; it'll probably be a lot easier for you once you learn to position some extra observers at a spot where you would normally put an overlord. Maybe put them on patrol, so they can catch a bigger area as they come in. You can also use proxy pylons out on the map, or patrol a probe/zealot to see them coming in from afar. I would rather spend 50 or 100 minerals and make them unload to kill that unit/pylon, than to have them come into my base unnoticed and kill more than that with the drop. My $.02. Hope it helps. Yeah, everything is helping! I like your point on comparing the obs to ovy's, I never thought of that but yeah if I pull my obs back after scouting their build i see no reason why my obs should continue to hover over mass barracks and whatnot, so why not use it to help me position better - the pylons around the map sound smart as well I played a bit today and won versus almost every terran after watching and mimicking Rains play against TaeJa from the MLG event that happened 2 months ago. And yeah, basically I've been making obs and placing them around at chokes where terran can attack and splitting my army accordingly, working good so far! Thanks guys  | ||
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Swazi
United States11 Posts
On January 16 2013 09:27 Gumbi wrote: What are people's thoughts on Gate Nexus Core openings? I think they're very underused. They allow a much better eco than standard FE and can still have a 6.05 wg to def 2 raxes. I do a Parting style variant super greedy expand vs Terran on every map and it works really well (near-high Master). This build crushes 10 min timings. Indeed, I start my third around 8.30, and already have a Colossus out. I go Gate, then Nexus (at 2.50 if you're microing Probes correctly). Pylon at nat to stop Bunkers. Scout with Probe. Get Assim at around 100 mins, then Core ASAP after it. You should have exactly 50 gas as the Core finishes, start wg, chrono as necessary (base off scouting). I make 2 Zealots, use one chrono on Gate. Often Terrans think I'm doing Nexus first and try to Bunker rush, these 2 Zealots help very well vs it. But the man reason I get 2 Zealots (one chrono) is because the Core is slightly delayed. I just feel like Gate Core Stalker, 13 scout hurt Toss eco-wise vs 1 Rax FE (much later scout due to late arrival of Toss ranged unit). I've been using the gate gas nexus into 4 gate pressure opening on maps without ramps a lot recently and it generally just kills most terrans I've been using it against. But i like the build because if you scout gas you can easily go for standard 3 gates and a robo and play a macro game. The only time it sucks if they scout you fast and get down a engi bay block before your nexus is down. Link to vod http://sc2casts.com/cast11083-PartinG-vs-LucifroN-Best-of-3-Iron-Squid-2-Group-Stage There's more examples of this build in WCS Asia | ||
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Kaitokid
Germany1327 Posts
On January 16 2013 02:54 Teoita wrote: 1) Yes, your thought process is correct. 2) Colossus openings commonly get Blink before Charge to deal with drops more easily. The lack of Templar/Cannons in the main means you do have to leave a group of stalkers (usually 6, as they will 2shot a medivac) to deal with potential drops. However, the most important thing is vision; these days it's very common to use 3 observers and eventually go up to 4-5 to see as much of the map as possible. Regarding cannons, i usually add 1-2 depending on the map when i take my third. For instance, on Cloud Kingdom i make one cannon in my nat, while on Antiga i make two in my main. Eventually i leave 2-3 cannons and a templar at two between my main/third/nat (again, depending on map architecture) for defense, as well as a few random extra templar all over the map. 3) Either 3 with range or one with no range. One with no range to hold medivac pushes is pretty much a two base templar build (you get your twilight council when +1 armor is halfway done, then start charge/+2/Archives and take a third); true colossus builds often cut at three and they are getting less common in the pro scene due to the 2/2 viking timing you talk about, as it can hit before storm even completes if done well. I have seen some Kespa Protoss doing lots of double forge and getting as many as 4 colossi while maxing on archon/stlaker/zealot/colossus and delaying storm (off the top of my head, Jangbi, Terminator and Rain all did it in Proleague), but none of them has ever been up against that viking timing (i think) so i don't know how they deal with it. Regarding 2base templar, ghost timings aren't nearly as effective anymore due to the EMP nerf (if that's what you mean), plus basically everyone does 3cc, medivac timings or rarely some 2base tech build so you shouldn't be too concerned about ghost pushes. Fast templar are actually stronger defensively than Colossus openings, because it's much harder for the Terran to push into a third or nat defended by well positioned and split ht's than it is for them to run in with Vikings and kill all your Colossi. @poster above me: Toxsik is a GM zerg. I'm pretty sure he needs to get HT's at his level almost noone gets blink before charge in colo builds, especially top Koreans. players who like to get blink first are for example titan, fraer and elfi and from the Koreans HerO | ||
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VoiceSC
Canada109 Posts
On January 15 2013 17:50 kuruptt wrote: Awesome, thanks a lot of this! If anyone else has any recommendations feel free to do so! You can actually do a 4gate against any of the races. My Diamond-turned-Masters smurf I decided to just do 4gates against everyone I played. It was about 15+ games and I won them all just doing that. Low-high Diamonds and some Masters. So it's definitely a starter build for you to work on to increase 1) Macro 2)Micro 3)Build Order Timings 4)Increase APM 5)And general mechanics Now don't anyone hate on me because I said it increases your APM. I am not in any way saying APM is a measure of skill. Many people can have 150+ APM and it's because they spam. You can also look around the map a lot and click on things, but it's to no avail if you don't have a reason for it. Personal Definition of APM: The degree or measure of how active you are with your units, base, map awareness, macro, and micro. Also, 1gate expand is viable in any matchup. | ||
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VoiceSC
Canada109 Posts
On January 16 2013 13:19 Swazi wrote: I've been using the gate gas nexus into 4 gate pressure opening on maps without ramps a lot recently and it generally just kills most terrans I've been using it against. But i like the build because if you scout gas you can easily go for standard 3 gates and a robo and play a macro game. The only time it sucks if they scout you fast and get down a engi bay block before your nexus is down. Link to vod http://sc2casts.com/cast11083-PartinG-vs-LucifroN-Best-of-3-Iron-Squid-2-Group-Stage There's more examples of this build in WCS Asia Gumbi, can you post one of your replays for this build you do? I'd like to analyze it. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! User was warned for this post | ||
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VoiceSC
Canada109 Posts
On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote: I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race? I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool, or 12 hatch. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
On January 17 2013 11:54 VoiceSC wrote: Best openers in my opinion against all races: PvZ: Forge Fast Expand PvT: Fast Expand (Not 1gate, I go 16 Nexus) PvP: Anything, depending on map. Now if you didn't want just protoss builds, here are the rest. ZvZ: 8, 9, 10 pool, or 12 hatch. Look at Glons Guide for ZvZ. ZvT: 4Queen, 2base opener ZvP: Double Expansion vs FFE. TvT: 1Rax FE, 1/1/1 Style TvP: 1Rax FE TvZ: 1Rax FE into Hellion. Wow thank you so much for your input, I was generally just looking for protoss but I will look into the zerg openings as well! Could you recommend me a guide/youtube for these openers on how to execute them? Would be great help. Thanks for your input though! | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 17 2013 11:35 kuruptt wrote: I just reached silver league guys by mostly messing around with build orders. Only first week to so I think I'm starting to get some hand of things. I still want to know what are the BEST openers against each race? I know for PvZ that the immortal sentry all in is considered the best and strongest and that it is very hard for the zerg player to counter. Is there a build like this for the other races? Or is there just 1 build that works against all races that I should be perfecting? Again I am only in the silver league. Sorry for the repeat of questions, I just want up to date information! If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708 PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
On January 17 2013 11:57 rd wrote: If you're looking for strong builds to win with and enjoy the immortal sentry all-in you can pretty much do the same one base 3 gate robo variant against protoss and terran, too. I wouldn't worry about how up to date your builds are, as you have a very large capacity to outplay your opponents no matter how terrible they are -- as long as they're well executed. If you're looking to improve in PvT/PvZ (not so much PvP) specifically though, immortal all-ins remove a lot of valuable experience from the normal metagame. Safe standard PvT: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294136 Safe standard PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318708 PvP at your level is pretty much fine sticking to immortals and sentries. Everything else is simply knowing the basics of PvP i.e. making sure to punish his expand, knowing when you can add yours, and when to start colossus production after the early game. Thanks a lot for the links, it is very very helpful! Yeah I'm just going to play a bunch a games and perfect the build orders and get my macro down and see where it takes me. All these info has been a lot of help and I am going to work in 3 strategies against the 3 races. PvZ : Immortal sentry all in http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#2.2.4 PvP : 4 warpgate rush (To my understanding this is the strongest opener for pVp? Correct me if I'm wrong) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/4_Warpgate_Rush PvT: The 1 mc gate FE like you suggested. This is fine right? | ||
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