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Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference.
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I'm with .kv on this. If you 13 gate-->scout or scout even later, the terran can just build a depot and finish his wall at no additional cost, since he's going to build that depot anyways and 1rax FE floats ~100 minerals while he does that. But you don't know it's a 1rax FE, because there could be 1-2 more rax going down inside that base, or there could be a gas taken--or even both. If you don't get the information because a depot wall blocks your vision into his base, you are basically in the dark, and you have to play around every possible outcome--which usually means gambling that he doesn't do 1 or 2 things. Maybe you bet on him playing standard gasless, and he shows up with hellions at your front door and hellions at the back. Or maybe you bet on him 1-1-1ing you, and instead he just 3OCs you. You can plan for most potential outcomes, but not all of them--not that early into the game, and against a race with so many different options at hand.
My opinion is that you should either 9 scout, or you should aggressively poke with zealot(s) and stalker(s), or you should be teching fast enough that you either get out a solution to every potential problem, or you just outright can scout his main with your tech--and fast enough to understand what he's doing so you can react. One way or another, you need to get a read onto what he's doing, because otherwise you open yourself up to mindgames, to gambling and losing, and/or to just flat-out being behind.
EDIT: Nexus first can't hold some all-ins, but if you 9 scout you can rule a lot of the earliest all-ins out, and narrow down potential aggression. If you see the gas in the main and no rax, and know it's a proxy play--probably marauders--and you just don't build the Nexus/you cancel the nexus, and then build some production; problem solved. And there are multiple follow-ups to a Nexus first opening--you can cut one thing and build another thing faster, etc.
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On January 18 2013 09:14 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 23:45 ineversmile wrote:On January 17 2013 23:10 mizU wrote:
I really like going zealot before core pressure into expand into 3 gate blink robo. (vT) It's been very viable on blink friendly maps, but is this even a thing? Are there any pro games anyone has seen where this has been done? 2 base blink harass into colossus or double forge charge? Can we see some replays of this action? I've been trying to work on some heavy stalker play for Antiga, recently. And in general, I'm trying to work blink traps (out on the map) into my vs Terran play, since it's good to know a multitude of styles. I know that Squirtle basically blink-contained someone for an entire game, on Cloud Kingdom, in his Up and Down matches a week ago. Normally a contain ends when that 10 min Medivac/Stim timing kicks in, but he managed to keep the Terran in his base for like 15-20 minutes. Have you seen that game? http://drop.sc/296076stalker harass was a little delayed because of the marine push, but you get the idea
I honestly don't like that pressure. You ended up losing 2 zealots, left with a mostly dead stalker, which all died to what the terran normally would have had at that time. You didn't delay his production or tech, simply his natural by a little bit. Yours was still far behind, so you ended that little push at a disadvantage.
It was at the 11 minute mark and all you had was blink stalkers. By that point you should have a mix of stalker/sentry with at least 1 Colossus and +1 weapons. I understand you were trying to go blink stalkers, but at that point it was so late that you were at a disadvantage.
I'm not trying to be mean or rude in any way, just critically analyzing the route you took.
I know I ain't not so good not neither! :D:D:D
Also, what I like to do is go 9 scout, delay my gate until about 14, 15 supply, and if he has no gas, I still don't take the gate and go for my Nexus first. If I scout gas, I immediately drop my gas and gate.
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On January 18 2013 11:31 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2013 14:53 rd wrote:
If you aren't confident in your reads nor really benefit from the extra minerals at lower levels then 9 scouting is definitely worth the money. You can however ascertain whether or not they have a gas, especially on four player maps, by simply poking with a stalker and counting marines. They could time a bunker to make a 1/1/1 look like a 1 rax fe. Even then though, a lot of the dangerous factory based all-ins hit late enough that the more modern, faster fe's are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. It's really all just preference. Well depends on these factory based all-ins. Do they incorporate some kind of early pressure where you can't scout it on time? If they don't, then yeah your FE are able to account for them with fewer adjustments. However, if they do incorporate some kind of early pressure before you can scout it with your observer, you can lose the game outright.
If it's a factory based all-in that opens with pressure and follows it up with a larger all-in, there isn't that many choices to vaguely state early pressure in regards to the popular all-ins; It's generally hellions or banshees -- if at all. Unless you nexus first you'll have the stalkers in time to prevent too much damage from hellions, and most builds always have a robo in time for cloak. And this is all under the assumption they're bunkering at the natural to fake an FE and stop a stalker from scouting, which even the bunker itself cuts into the timing.
On January 18 2013 11:49 ineversmile wrote:
I'm with .kv on this. If you 13 gate-->scout or scout even later, the terran can just build a depot and finish his wall at no additional cost, since he's going to build that depot anyways and 1rax FE floats ~100 minerals while he does that. But you don't know it's a 1rax FE, because there could be 1-2 more rax going down inside that base, or there could be a gas taken--or even both. If you don't get the information because a depot wall blocks your vision into his base, you are basically in the dark, and you have to play around every possible outcome--which usually means gambling that he doesn't do 1 or 2 things. Maybe you bet on him playing standard gasless, and he shows up with hellions at your front door and hellions at the back. Or maybe you bet on him 1-1-1ing you, and instead he just 3OCs you. You can plan for most potential outcomes, but not all of them--not that early into the game, and against a race with so many different options at hand.
My opinion is that you should either 9 scout, or you should aggressively poke with zealot(s) and stalker(s), or you should be teching fast enough that you either get out a solution to every potential problem, or you just outright can scout his main with your tech--and fast enough to understand what he's doing so you can react. One way or another, you need to get a read onto what he's doing, because otherwise you open yourself up to mindgames, to gambling and losing, and/or to just flat-out being behind.
EDIT: Nexus first can't hold some all-ins, but if you 9 scout you can rule a lot of the earliest all-ins out, and narrow down potential aggression. If you see the gas in the main and no rax, and know it's a proxy play--probably marauders--and you just don't build the Nexus/you cancel the nexus, and then build some production; problem solved. And there are multiple follow-ups to a Nexus first opening--you can cut one thing and build another thing faster, etc.
But you just answered the problem you proposed: You can 13 scout, find a wall and be fine if you're going to open core before nexus and aggressively poke the wall.
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On January 18 2013 11:49 ineversmile wrote:
I'm with .kv on this. If you 13 gate-->scout or scout even later, the terran can just build a depot and finish his wall at no additional cost, since he's going to build that depot anyways and 1rax FE floats ~100 minerals while he does that. But you don't know it's a 1rax FE, because there could be 1-2 more rax going down inside that base, or there could be a gas taken--or even both. If you don't get the information because a depot wall blocks your vision into his base, you are basically in the dark, and you have to play around every possible outcome--which usually means gambling that he doesn't do 1 or 2 things. Maybe you bet on him playing standard gasless, and he shows up with hellions at your front door and hellions at the back. Or maybe you bet on him 1-1-1ing you, and instead he just 3OCs you. You can plan for most potential outcomes, but not all of them--not that early into the game, and against a race with so many different options at hand.
My opinion is that you should either 9 scout, or you should aggressively poke with zealot(s) and stalker(s), or you should be teching fast enough that you either get out a solution to every potential problem, or you just outright can scout his main with your tech--and fast enough to understand what he's doing so you can react. One way or another, you need to get a read onto what he's doing, because otherwise you open yourself up to mindgames, to gambling and losing, and/or to just flat-out being behind.
Actually, it costs Terran to do a depot wall.It hurts their eco a bit in order to deny information. Either way, economically, Toss is ahead (I assume some fast Nexus).
Now, I propose that the Toss's build should be such that the gain they got from missing out on scouting information (more minerals, very fast Nexus, like a Gate Nexus) should be so as they are able to adapt accordingly and dynamically to safely defend against anything Terran can throw at them.
If Terran hides behind a depot wall, I have quite a bit of information. I know there's no CC at nat. I can poke up ramp and makes reads. How many marines? Did he go Fac early? (based on Marine count). Add-on on Barracks? I have map control, which means I can adapt in time if he moves out with some force (my build should be such that this kind of dynamic adaption is possible). These adaptions are possible because at the end of the day, I'm ahead economically.
Wow. He 3 ccs in his main? Damn Terran. You scary. Well I'm just gonna keep making Probes. Need I remind you that I'm dual producing probes? Terran is mining from one base? And my build will be such that by the time I scout T's main with my obs I can make the necessary adaptions to be ahead/even.
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On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference.
I think you're being incredibly negative about the whole scenario, Gumbi. All ins can be held with proper micro and positioning. A lot of early pushes require stalkers to deal with them. I see so many players going sentry zealot and all I can think is, "so you forcefielded the ramp, sent zealots to deal with the marines that were seperated, and had all your zealots die because regardless of being forcefielded, the whole army can still attack the zealots. Then you're stuck with nothing but sentries which screws you over.
There's a fine line between being greedy and being stupid. I was doing a blind 16 nexus, no scouting at all, which is incredibly greedy. But then I realized, if I don't 9 scout, the terran will wall, and I won't see if he took double gas, single gas, no gas, if he built 2 early rax, CC in the main, etc. Simply having the probe presence there can delay whatever route he is taking while you are expanding.
Your build is not extremely greedy since you went gate assim first. That's more of a safe, 1gate FE style to help deal with early pressure like bunker rushes. And the fact that you don't 9 scout makes it 1) Not greedy, 2) Incredibly stupid. You have absolutely no scouting information whatsoever, which means your tech route is always forced to be robo bay, maybe hallucinations. Either way, you're forced to go one of those two routes just to get your first sneak peak of what is happening.
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On January 18 2013 11:49 ineversmile wrote:
My opinion is that you should either 9 scout, or you should aggressively poke with zealot(s) and stalker(s), or you should be teching fast enough that you either get out a solution to every potential problem, or you just outright can scout his main with your tech--and fast enough to understand what he's doing so you can react. One way or another, you need to get a read onto what he's doing, because otherwise you open yourself up to mindgames, to gambling and losing, and/or to just flat-out being behind.
This i would agree with. I don't like to 9 scout, but if ur not going to 9 scout, it is really not worth probe scouting at all most of the time (I do 13 scout sometimes on 2 map players like Daybreak tho, cos going CC b4 depot is such a common opening on them that there is a good chance that they won't block their wall with a depot).
The three best options are to 9 Scout, aggressively scout with gateway units or aggressively tech and i find myself preferring the latter two.
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On January 18 2013 12:00 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 11:49 ineversmile wrote:
I'm with .kv on this. If you 13 gate-->scout or scout even later, the terran can just build a depot and finish his wall at no additional cost, since he's going to build that depot anyways and 1rax FE floats ~100 minerals while he does that. But you don't know it's a 1rax FE, because there could be 1-2 more rax going down inside that base, or there could be a gas taken--or even both. If you don't get the information because a depot wall blocks your vision into his base, you are basically in the dark, and you have to play around every possible outcome--which usually means gambling that he doesn't do 1 or 2 things. Maybe you bet on him playing standard gasless, and he shows up with hellions at your front door and hellions at the back. Or maybe you bet on him 1-1-1ing you, and instead he just 3OCs you. You can plan for most potential outcomes, but not all of them--not that early into the game, and against a race with so many different options at hand.
My opinion is that you should either 9 scout, or you should aggressively poke with zealot(s) and stalker(s), or you should be teching fast enough that you either get out a solution to every potential problem, or you just outright can scout his main with your tech--and fast enough to understand what he's doing so you can react. One way or another, you need to get a read onto what he's doing, because otherwise you open yourself up to mindgames, to gambling and losing, and/or to just flat-out being behind. Actually, it costs Terran to do a depot wall.It hurts their eco a bit in order to deny information. Either way, economically, Toss is ahead (I assume some fast Nexus)
Not really, it essentially delays their orbital by less than a second; a fraction. Not even comparable to the cost of a 9 scout.
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On January 18 2013 12:01 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference. I think you're being incredibly negative about the whole scenario, Gumbi. All ins can be held with proper micro and positioning. A lot of early pushes require stalkers to deal with them. I see so many players going sentry zealot and all I can think is, "so you forcefielded the ramp, sent zealots to deal with the marines that were seperated, and had all your zealots die because regardless of being forcefielded, the whole army can still attack the zealots. Then you're stuck with nothing but sentries which screws you over. There's a fine line between being greedy and being stupid. I was doing a blind 16 nexus, no scouting at all, which is incredibly greedy. But then I realized, if I don't 9 scout, the terran will wall, and I won't see if he took double gas, single gas, no gas, if he built 2 early rax, CC in the main, etc. Simply having the probe presence there can delay whatever route he is taking while you are expanding. Your build is not extremely greedy since you went gate assim first. That's more of a safe, 1gate FE style to help deal with early pressure like bunker rushes. And the fact that you don't 9 scout makes it 1) Not greedy, 2) Incredibly stupid. You have absolutely no scouting information whatsoever, which means your tech route is always forced to be robo bay, maybe hallucinations. Either way, you're forced to go one of those two routes just to get your first sneak peak of what is happening.
Getting all Stalkers from your first few Gates is risky. Sure they crush some builds, but lose to others. Con shell openings (pressure, allin ,whatever), for example. Ofc f you have info that's a different matter.
My build IS extremely greedy because I delay my scouting and I get a Nexus 25 sec after the fastest Nexus possible. (actually probably 15 sec or something since you 9 scouted) So, in the context of the game, it's damn near the greediest build possible.
Couple of pointers about Nexus first. You put yourself behind vs Bunkering 1 rax fe (forces 4 probes to be pulled to prevent bunker finishing - T has good eco to back it up) Next, and I've said this multiple times, no matter the scout timing, I hold that Nexus first cannot hold a multitude of Terran openings.
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On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference.
Not sure I'd call gate gas nexus "quite safe." Have you ever come out close to even vs. proxy marauder with it?
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On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference.
Not safe against proxy marauders.
Pros take risks and cut corners to "metagame" their opponent. They have a whole team and coaching staff behind them to figure out how the player plays. For instance, back then when overlords weren't as fast, you would see Korean Terrans build their rax or automatically move their marine to the exact location a Zerg would have his overlord strolling toward and kill it sometimes. That's not based on luck. That's based on studying their opponent and figuring out their typical pattern/routine.
You seem to just state vague statements rather than give examples. It's never a disadvantage if you 9 scout IMO. That's what I'm saying. Care to share what exactly these typical scenarios are that would put me (as Protoss) at a disadvantage against Terran?
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Gumbi, what league are you?
It's actually not risky, it's the smart route to take. And there have been many cases where I beat a Con shell pressure with only stalkers. It requires proper micro.
Again, it's stupid and incredibly in the dark. How do you know there's no bunker rush coming for you? 2rax? 3rax? 6rax? Do you know if he's teching? Expanding? Anything? When you play completely in the dark, it comes down to luck, not skill.
Find me a pro level game where a bunker rush didn't need probes pulled. Any anything can be held if done properly.
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On January 18 2013 12:14 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference. Not safe against proxy marauders. Pros take risks and cut corners to "metagame" their opponent. They have a whole team and coaching staff behind them to figure out how the player plays. For instance, back then when overlords weren't as fast, you would see Korean Terrans build their rax or automatically move their marine to the exact location a Zerg would have his overlord strolling toward and kill it sometimes. That's not based on luck. That's based on studying their opponent and figuring out their typical pattern/routine. You seem to just state vague statements rather than give examples. It's never a disadvantage if you 9 scout IMO. That's what I'm saying. Care to share what exactly these typical scenarios are that would put me (as Protoss) at a disadvantage against Terran?
I think I can hold it. Maybe not always, but with proper control, I should able to come out on top most of the time. I'd love to practice it any time with Terrans. I always like testing my builds seeing if they're too greedy.
CC first. No scouting. Terrans do this quite often. There are few auto wins vs it.
1 Rax FE no scouting, maybe, is even to 9 scout Nexus first - I'd have to test that, though. (standard 1 gate fe is behind vs 1 rax fe, which is why I endeavour to avoid it).
And of course, in line with my argument, it's a disadvantage when you can achieve the same thing (not dying) with a later scout. And for the umpteenth time, Nexus first auto loses to several builds regardless of 9 scouting.
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On January 18 2013 12:21 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:14 .kv wrote:On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference. Not safe against proxy marauders. Pros take risks and cut corners to "metagame" their opponent. They have a whole team and coaching staff behind them to figure out how the player plays. For instance, back then when overlords weren't as fast, you would see Korean Terrans build their rax or automatically move their marine to the exact location a Zerg would have his overlord strolling toward and kill it sometimes. That's not based on luck. That's based on studying their opponent and figuring out their typical pattern/routine. You seem to just state vague statements rather than give examples. It's never a disadvantage if you 9 scout IMO. That's what I'm saying. Care to share what exactly these typical scenarios are that would put me (as Protoss) at a disadvantage against Terran? I think I can hold it. Maybe not always, but with proper control, I should able to come out on top most of the time. I'd love to practice it any time with Terrans. I always like testing my builds seeing if they're too greedy. CC first. No scouting. Terrans do this quite often. There are few auto wins vs it. 1 Rax FE no scouting, maybe, is even to 9 scout Nexus first - I'd have to test that, though. (standard 1 gate fe is behind vs 1 rax fe, which is why I endeavour to avoid it). And of course, in line with my argument, it's a disadvantage when you can achieve the same thing (not dying) with a later scout. And for the umpteenth time, Nexus first auto loses to several builds regardless of 9 scouting.
You think you can? Hold it first, then drop us a replay for us to analyze before you make statements like that.
And again, you state for the umpteenth time that Nexus first auto loses to several builds regardless of scouting, but you never said what builds, nor provided any replays for it.
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On January 18 2013 12:18 VoiceSC wrote:
Gumbi, what league are you?
It's actually not risky, it's the smart route to take. And there have been many cases where I beat a Con shell pressure with only stalkers. It requires proper micro.
Again, it's stupid and incredibly in the dark. How do you know there's no bunker rush coming for you? 2rax? 3rax? 6rax? Do you know if he's teching? Expanding? Anything? When you play completely in the dark, it comes down to luck, not skill.
Find me a pro level game where a bunker rush didn't need probes pulled. Any anything can be held if done properly.
I have a Pylo at my nat, and a relatively early Zealot (not much later than if I were executing a standard 1 gate fe). And 2 chronos to play with. As for you questions regarding the T tech path? Like I said, until I get precise info, I rely on my opening gambits (early nexus, late scout, etc) to carry me through those inadequacies in order to stay ahead/even. That's vague, I know, but I explained above already how I react to this (apparent) lack of info.
I probe scout after nexus, if I'm denied a scout, I stalker/zealot poke. to spot expo. If there's no expo, I utilise the windows the terran bought for me (an attempt to deceive which cost him scv mining and 100 mins in a bunker) to carry me through. If terran is one basing, I can poke the ramp. And duly discern, as I've already explained.
For the third time, I AM NOT completely in he dark. I have a late probe scout. I have a gateway poke. I have map control. Valuable tools if ypou know how to use them.
I want to say high master, but I'm not quite there yet. Finished 12th or 13th in my division last season (playing poorly this season, though, had a rough start, but climbing back up again). PvT is my best mu.
I don't have replays, it's been quite a while since my Nexus first days. Blind marauder hellion openings beat nexus first. You simply cannot have enough units out in time to beat it (I'm talking very early, constant pressure).
Any kind of proxy play. I'd like to see how Nexus first can beat that. (Actually I really would, I wonder how effective that 9 scout would be vs proxy play).
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On January 18 2013 12:13 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference. Not sure I'd call gate gas nexus "quite safe." Have you ever come out close to even vs. proxy marauder with it?
A 13 scout would arrive at their base around the time you'd drop the core. You could easily react. That, and proxy marauders are pretty rare.
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On January 18 2013 12:08 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:01 VoiceSC wrote:On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference. I think you're being incredibly negative about the whole scenario, Gumbi. All ins can be held with proper micro and positioning. A lot of early pushes require stalkers to deal with them. I see so many players going sentry zealot and all I can think is, "so you forcefielded the ramp, sent zealots to deal with the marines that were seperated, and had all your zealots die because regardless of being forcefielded, the whole army can still attack the zealots. Then you're stuck with nothing but sentries which screws you over. There's a fine line between being greedy and being stupid. I was doing a blind 16 nexus, no scouting at all, which is incredibly greedy. But then I realized, if I don't 9 scout, the terran will wall, and I won't see if he took double gas, single gas, no gas, if he built 2 early rax, CC in the main, etc. Simply having the probe presence there can delay whatever route he is taking while you are expanding. Your build is not extremely greedy since you went gate assim first. That's more of a safe, 1gate FE style to help deal with early pressure like bunker rushes. And the fact that you don't 9 scout makes it 1) Not greedy, 2) Incredibly stupid. You have absolutely no scouting information whatsoever, which means your tech route is always forced to be robo bay, maybe hallucinations. Either way, you're forced to go one of those two routes just to get your first sneak peak of what is happening. Getting all Stalkers from your first few Gates is risky. Sure they crush some builds, but lose to others. Con shell openings (pressure, allin ,whatever), for example. Ofc f you have info that's a different matter.
This only confirms his point more--Against some openings, you want zealot/sentry. Against others, you want mostly stalkers. Against some, you want a mix of all 3. If you 9 scout, you can narrow it down very easily--Gas? Maybe marauders, maybe something that starts with teching factory. No gas? Marines only.
And you can click his refinery and count the gas he's mined to figure out the timings, too. Mined 100 gas already? Maybe there's a factory on the map, and he probably got gas before Rax. Gas just started? He plans to do something soon, but he can't have marauders out until that gas has been mining for 7 trips to the refinery with his SCVs, and then the tech lab build time, and then the marauder build time.
Couple of pointers about Nexus first. You put yourself behind vs Bunkering 1 rax fe (forces 4 probes to be pulled to prevent bunker finishing - T has good eco to back it up) Next, and I've said this multiple times, no matter the scout timing, I hold that Nexus first cannot hold a multitude of Terran openings.
If you get bunker rushed, you lose mining time, but then you get to kill an SCV and a couple marines to make up for that, and you know he did a bunker rush instead of 3 OC or instead of building one of those Raxes earlier, so it gives you intel about the timings.
I just don't think you're valuing scouting information enough, and that's why there's a swarm of other people that disagree with you about the value of not only 9 scouting, but just scouting in general.
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On January 18 2013 12:21 Gumbi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 12:14 .kv wrote:On January 18 2013 11:48 Gumbi wrote:
Why should I 9 scout when I can be greedier? Nexus first cannot hold some T allins, regardless of scouting, and loses to proxies.
I play Gate Assim (no mining) Nexus (2.50-2.55) Pylon Core Zealot Stalker. Scout after second Pylon. This is an extremely greedy build. And quite safe.
If a 9 scout "is best" in PvT, why do pros almost never do it? Nexus first is quite a sizeable risk vs Terran, and sure, 9 scouting saves you from some of that risk, but not all of it. So some pros might do it. But at the end of the day, it's a risk. You are hoping that Terran doesn't do a number of builds that will outright kill you.
Who cares if you have faster reads if there are marines and a bunker already at your nat? (proxy)
And lol at the comment which assumes anything other than scouting a Terran's main is being blind.
I didn't say you were automatically at a disadvantage. I said you were automatically at a disadvantage in a number of typical scenarios. Big difference. Not safe against proxy marauders. Pros take risks and cut corners to "metagame" their opponent. They have a whole team and coaching staff behind them to figure out how the player plays. For instance, back then when overlords weren't as fast, you would see Korean Terrans build their rax or automatically move their marine to the exact location a Zerg would have his overlord strolling toward and kill it sometimes. That's not based on luck. That's based on studying their opponent and figuring out their typical pattern/routine. You seem to just state vague statements rather than give examples. It's never a disadvantage if you 9 scout IMO. That's what I'm saying. Care to share what exactly these typical scenarios are that would put me (as Protoss) at a disadvantage against Terran? I think I can hold it. Maybe not always, but with proper control, I should able to come out on top most of the time. I'd love to practice it any time with Terrans. I always like testing my builds seeing if they're too greedy. CC first. No scouting. Terrans do this quite often. There are few auto wins vs it. 1 Rax FE no scouting, maybe, is even to 9 scout Nexus first - I'd have to test that, though. (standard 1 gate fe is behind vs 1 rax fe, which is why I endeavour to avoid it). And of course, in line with my argument, it's a disadvantage when you can achieve the same thing (not dying) with a later scout. And for the umpteenth time, Nexus first auto loses to several builds regardless of 9 scouting.
You said plainly that your build is "quite safe," so where is the proof?
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Hmmm. We're not really getting anywhere. Are any of you guys Terrans on the EU server? The only way to test it is to test specific builds vs these openers and see if they are deemed to be "safe" (safe to be defined later :D).
Regarding bunker rushing vs nexus first... You don't necessarily kill marines...or a bunker...or an scv... There';s something called forcing 4 probes off mining, cancelling the bunker and running away (maybe losing scv).
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On January 18 2013 12:34 Gumbi wrote:
Hmmm. We're not really getting anywhere. Are any of you guys Terrans on the EU server? The only way to test it is to test specific builds vs these openers and see if they are deemed to be "safe" (safe to be defined later :D).
Regarding bunker rushing vs nexus first... You don't necessarily kill marines...or a bunker...or an scv... There';s something called forcing 4 probes off mining, cancelling the bunker and running away (maybe losing scv).
I don't have an EU account and I'm only low masters as Terran, not a good choice to use.
If done right you should kill the scv, if not, you have a bunker that has less health and therefore easier to kill. And once the bunker is gone, you can just send those 4 probes to mine at your natural. So the mining time gone isn't that long. But it is somewhat significant.
Say it took you 30 seconds to force the cancel, travel time included. That's about 80 minerals lost for you, 25 for the bunker for him, plus the travel time and build time for the scv. If you manage to kill the scv, that's 75+ gone, about an even trade, Though it could go in someone else's favour more or less in some way.
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EPT
