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United States8477 Posts
On January 19 2013 02:47 probeater wrote:
alright thanks guys for the help! so i guess most of the time it will be phoenix and if i get my build good enough to hit aruond 7 minutes then i will win
Not exactly. He can permanently forcefield the ramp until he can get a healthy supply of immortals. See Creator vs Squirtle on Daybreak from the WCS Korea finals for an example of this.
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On January 19 2013 02:55 monk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 02:47 probeater wrote:
alright thanks guys for the help! so i guess most of the time it will be phoenix and if i get my build good enough to hit aruond 7 minutes then i will win Not exactly. He can permanently forcefield the ramp until he can get a healthy supply of immortals. See Creator vs Squirtle on Daybreak from the WCS Korea finals for an example of this.
In fairness, that wasn't the exact same scenario. Creator started chaining FFs at about 7:15 once his phoenixes flew in and saw the build, but Squirtle's attack was very late. Parting vs. Creator on Entombed from the BWC grand finals shows a more timely blink attack.
edit: Creator played greedier in the Entombed game, though.
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Italy12248 Posts
Another great example of defending blink with phoenix openings is the Hero vs Rain game on Antiga.
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i saw the Hero vs Rain game, i was talking about blink-obs, isn't it 8:00ish when i blink up from the back of their base? and is naniwas build on liquipedia still the best one?
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The thing about blink vs phoenix is, if the phoenix player screws up just a tiny bit, it'll often just auto-loss him the game. However, IMO phoenix, especially Stargate Robo (which is imo the best pvp build overall) is somewhat of a hard counter to pure blink builds if u play perfect. If u send ur phoenix to their mineral line u force them to be all in with their attack or have them warp in stalkers at their base meanwhile u keep forcefielding ur ramp until u reach a critical mass of immortal. The observer of a Stargate robo will always arrive in time to see the blink all in at ur natural (only time this has not been true from what ive seen is when MVPGalaxy did an incredibly fast blink all in vs Eifer on Cloud Kingdom).
Blink Obs is a bit harder and u definitely need to keep ur phoenix around ur base to stop it, but it comes later and Stargate Robo is pretty strong against it.
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I've been playing around with a Gateway>Nexus opening in PvZ and I am having massive problems with lings. I am trying to copy a build Naniwa did where he goes for a quick 4 gate into +2 Blink.
Unfortunately, the Zerg sees my Gateway and skips his third and goes straight into mass ling or ling/bling. By the time his lings hit, my Nexus is finished and they immediately take it out. I also only have three zealots max at this point and can not stop them from getting into my main. How do I safely open Gateway>Nexus and still pressure the third if allowed?
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Hello, I'm a platinum protoss player ( I don't even know how I made it to plat ). I don't really know how the flow of the games go, I've been using 3 gate Robo for PvP, MC's 1 gate Fe for PvT, and FFE for PvZ. But past the opening I don't really know when and what stuffs should I be making, like when to get a robotics bay, when to tech into templar, when to get a third. I'd love if you explain it to me or link to some guide. Thanks!
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On January 19 2013 11:56 Arsonists wrote:
Hello, I'm a platinum protoss player ( I don't even know how I made it to plat ). I don't really know how the flow of the games go, I've been using 3 gate Robo for PvP, MC's 1 gate Fe for PvT, and FFE for PvZ. But past the opening I don't really know when and what stuffs should I be making, like when to get a robotics bay, when to tech into templar, when to get a third. I'd love if you explain it to me or link to some guide. Thanks!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255
You want the "Build/Style/Standard" parts under Protoss --> PvT / PvZ / PvP
Just pick one and try it out. I'm using the Startale PvT and Fast Third into Zealot/Immortal PvZ.
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On January 19 2013 10:53 Davron wrote:
I've been playing around with a Gateway>Nexus opening in PvZ and I am having massive problems with lings. I am trying to copy a build Naniwa did where he goes for a quick 4 gate into +2 Blink.
Unfortunately, the Zerg sees my Gateway and skips his third and goes straight into mass ling or ling/bling. By the time his lings hit, my Nexus is finished and they immediately take it out. I also only have three zealots max at this point and can not stop them from getting into my main. How do I safely open Gateway>Nexus and still pressure the third if allowed?
U should be able to scout if the zerg is reactively all ining u if u are actively probe scout. Do u have specific replays that i can watch, i open gate nexus almost every game at mid-high masters (GM Sea) so i can give some tips about the way u approach ur sim city against allins. Also, i highly recommend watching Eifersuchtig's stream, who is perhaps the best Gate Nexus player on NA IMO.
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On January 19 2013 13:56 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 10:53 Davron wrote:
I've been playing around with a Gateway>Nexus opening in PvZ and I am having massive problems with lings. I am trying to copy a build Naniwa did where he goes for a quick 4 gate into +2 Blink.
Unfortunately, the Zerg sees my Gateway and skips his third and goes straight into mass ling or ling/bling. By the time his lings hit, my Nexus is finished and they immediately take it out. I also only have three zealots max at this point and can not stop them from getting into my main. How do I safely open Gateway>Nexus and still pressure the third if allowed? U should be able to scout if the zerg is reactively all ining u if u are actively probe scout. Do u have specific replays that i can watch, i open gate nexus almost every game at mid-high masters (GM Sea) so i can give some tips about the way u approach ur sim city against allins. Also, i highly recommend watching Eifersuchtig's stream, who is perhaps the best Gate Nexus player on NA IMO.
Is that flcEifer?
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What do you do against a Zerg that turtles on 2 bases with fast ling speed to Muta? Early pressure isn't effective because he's only on 2 bases and has an easier time defending, and once the Muta are out I can't leave my base or I lose all my probes. Diamond Toss here.
Blink Stalkers and Templar.. yadda yadda, but I can only make so much stuff on 2 bases while my opponent sits on 4-5...
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On January 19 2013 15:01 DinoMight wrote:
What do you do against a Zerg that turtles on 2 bases with fast ling speed to Muta? Early pressure isn't effective because he's only on 2 bases and has an easier time defending, and once the Muta are out I can't leave my base or I lose all my probes. Diamond Toss here.
Blink Stalkers and Templar.. yadda yadda, but I can only make so much stuff on 2 bases while my opponent sits on 4-5...
You just said he turtles while he gets all of that. You should be expanding and defending with a sim city and cannons. And yes, blink stalkers and templar are good, but most important are Archons.
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On January 19 2013 15:01 DinoMight wrote:
What do you do against a Zerg that turtles on 2 bases with fast ling speed to Muta? Early pressure isn't effective because he's only on 2 bases and has an easier time defending, and once the Muta are out I can't leave my base or I lose all my probes. Diamond Toss here.
Blink Stalkers and Templar.. yadda yadda, but I can only make so much stuff on 2 bases while my opponent sits on 4-5...
My advice would be to try and take your third earlier so that it's already established and easier to defend. But this guide will probably serve you better.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788
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United States1761 Posts
On January 19 2013 15:01 DinoMight wrote:
What do you do against a Zerg that turtles on 2 bases with fast ling speed to Muta? Early pressure isn't effective because he's only on 2 bases and has an easier time defending, and once the Muta are out I can't leave my base or I lose all my probes. Diamond Toss here.
Blink Stalkers and Templar.. yadda yadda, but I can only make so much stuff on 2 bases while my opponent sits on 4-5...
I am no authority on the matter, but here's what I do. One of the biggest benefits for a ling/muta zerg is he can expand all over the place. So keep an eye on his third and stay active with scouting (whether it be obs, hallucinate, phoenix or DTs) if he takes a base you may not be able to do anything about it, but you need to be aware of it.
Once you have templar tech and blink, you need to put plenty of cannons and backup pylons to defend your main and nat. Leave at least 1 HT in each. Once you have this, you should be able to defend the mutas fairly easily. Now use your main army to crawl to a 3rd, archons are your best friend. I can't tell you how many players I've watched lose 1000's worth of income and workers because they tried to go cheap on cannons, didn't have extra pylons for the cannons, and did not have pre positioned HT's. As long as you don't do anything stupid and get frustrated, it's going to be a long game.(you never want a base trade vs muta ling!) I also recommend investing in shield upgrades before armor. (of course you want attack upgrades 1st vs zerg) The shield upgrades will benefit your cannons, archons, and pylons, which all have enhanced importance vs muta/ling. Stay away from robo tech (other than obs I will usually get at least 3 obs out vs muta ling! Trust me, it pays dividends).
A big mistake I see a lot of players make is not having any zealots. You always want some, depending on how heavy he goes lings, you may want more. Going templar, and only using a robo for obs, you will have the extra minerals, so use them to your benefit, plenty of cannons and some zealots.
You won't be able to counter attack the zerg most games, because they usually get a spine wall when going muta/ling. So you usually have to wait until you get the 3rd base and it's gas before you can build up enough archons, storms, and upgrades to be aggressive. When you are getting close to feeling safe to move out, you probably want DT's, scout for bases, and just be annoying if possible with them. I usually leave them on towers and on patrol at bases I think zerg might try to take. Don't expect to go harass his main with them, don't make 10 of them, just a few to scout, deny new expos, and hold towers are very helpful!
Basically, don't underestimate the value of map vision. The muta ling is stupid fast, early warning is so very helpful! Knowing how greedy they are being is very important also. What you have to watch out for now is that once you pile the cannons on and have well placed templar (if the muta ball gets really big you may want 2 ht per base, and always replace them if they die!) The zerg will typically react by either being greedy as hell and taking expansions all over the place, or a tech switch. So scout really well and be aware of either. They could try to switch into roach or go towards hive (infestor/bl) Just realize that if they do go into infestor, it will be a much slower process than normal for the zerg to get the BL's out, because he spent all that gas on muta. So he won't be able to make 10 of them right away, unless he was able to take bases all over the place unimpeded. Keep in mind also, that you know you won't be moving out any time soon, I sometimes go triple forge against muta ling, so when i do push out, it's a 3/3/3 timing. Besides, you won't have to crono probes or robo, because you will be turtling. So use that crono for them upgrades.
If they commit to muta and you see no signs of a tech switch, phoenix with the range upgrade are probably a great idea, I usually don't go that way because my micro is crap with phoenix. So I can't be really helpful there. But even with poor micro, I've killed off muta flocks over time with them.
To sum it up, you will be forced to turtle, so get those forge upgrades and don't spare the chrono, get those HT's, blink, and archons. Get plenty of cannons (however many you think you need, make a few more than that), and no artosis pylons! Keep 1 or 2 Ht's hanging out in each mineral line (defended by a good number of cannons) Scout really well, lots of obs, or frequent hallucinate. You want vision of attack paths from mutas, you need to know if the zerg is tech switching or staying with muta, you need to know if he is grabbing bases everywhere, you need to know if he has a spine wall. Once you are defended from muta really well, crawl to your 3rd with pylons and get the cannons up asap. Your army should be plenty of archons, HT's, blink stalkers, with a few sentries and zealots.
Motherships are great in late game vs muta ling for several reasons, you can deny him forcing a base trade by recalling home, if he switches into BL's you will be ready to toilet. Just leave the momma at home, where you have all those cannons and Ht's. If the zerg tries to kill it with muta, you should get a good trade (or a game ending muta toilet!)
Also a few tips, if you are reacting with your stalkers, first blink right away, you will often get the 2nd blink before they leave anyway. But the sooner you get there the less dmg you take. Also, sim city well. Make it really hard for a runby to do dmg. Use guardian shield, put your stalkers, and sentries on separate hotkeys (even if they are also on the hotkey with everything else) because templar will always have priority, Being able to press 2 and have just the stalkers selected for a quick blink is very helpful, same idea with guardian shield and FF's.
Mid game vs muta ling is very tough, but if you do what I've said, and defend really well, stay on top of scouting, you will roll them late game if they stay on muta ling. Once you have an upgraded maxed army with plenty of templar and archons, you should be able to crush their army and kill off expansions. Just make sure to leave a little supply open. I'd say stay at about 190. Just so you can warp in some stuff if need be. On the freak chance they mix in banes, (I've seen it!) FF's will be very important. The reason I think most people do so bad in the late game vs muta ling is because they don't play it safe and take constant economic dmg.
Hope this helps.
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On January 19 2013 14:14 VoiceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 13:56 blooblooblahblah wrote:On January 19 2013 10:53 Davron wrote:
I've been playing around with a Gateway>Nexus opening in PvZ and I am having massive problems with lings. I am trying to copy a build Naniwa did where he goes for a quick 4 gate into +2 Blink.
Unfortunately, the Zerg sees my Gateway and skips his third and goes straight into mass ling or ling/bling. By the time his lings hit, my Nexus is finished and they immediately take it out. I also only have three zealots max at this point and can not stop them from getting into my main. How do I safely open Gateway>Nexus and still pressure the third if allowed? U should be able to scout if the zerg is reactively all ining u if u are actively probe scout. Do u have specific replays that i can watch, i open gate nexus almost every game at mid-high masters (GM Sea) so i can give some tips about the way u approach ur sim city against allins. Also, i highly recommend watching Eifersuchtig's stream, who is perhaps the best Gate Nexus player on NA IMO. Is that flcEifer?
Yes that is him, he is on 4NOT now tho.
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On August 05 2011 15:20 SchfiftyFive wrote:
PvP what the hell do you do when you've tried 4 gate, 1 base collusus, blink, and chargelot archon and always get smashed? I can only ever win with 4 gate. Sad world. Replays can be uploaded if requested. I'm plat but sometimes play custom and hit diamond.
I like to use drop play in pvp and use obs to see where your opp is. Drop play allows you time to expand and not rely on such a 1 base play. Us it keeps you in control of where they go. If you keep the prism alive they won't stray to far from their base and if they do you have the obs to let you know and than you can drop some zeals in the main.
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On August 05 2011 15:20 SchfiftyFive wrote:
PvP what the hell do you do when you've tried 4 gate, 1 base collusus, blink, and chargelot archon and always get smashed? I can only ever win with 4 gate. Sad world. Replays can be uploaded if requested. I'm plat but sometimes play custom and hit diamond.
I like to use drop play in pvp and use obs to see where your opp is. Drop play allows you time to expand and not rely on such a 1 base play. Us it keeps you in control of where they go. If you keep the prism alive they won't stray to far from their base and if they do you have the obs to let you know and than you can drop some zeals in the main.
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PvZ help, roach early game.
I can't stop the roach all in. Wether I FFE or go immortal, if I FFE I don't have the army. If I go immortal I don't have the army. I don't know what can I do?
User was warned for this post
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PvZ help, roach early game.
I can't stop the roach all in. Wether I FFE or go immortal, if I FFE I don't have the army. If I go immortal I don't have the army. I don't know what can I do?
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On January 19 2013 17:38 funnyman1 wrote:
PvZ help, roach early game.
I can't stop the roach all in. Wether I FFE or go immortal, if I FFE I don't have the army. If I go immortal I don't have the army. I don't know what can I do?
What kind of roach all-in. Is it off of 2 bases or a stephano style max out. If its off of two bases then you need to try and scout him not taking a 3rd If you do that then put more cannons down. I think you are talking about the 12 minute roach max out, then you need better sim city as well as unit control. You want about 6 sentries and immos and stalkers not zealots. The goal is to ff chunks and kill them in bite size pieces. You can't let your immos or sentries die. If they start dieing you have a much harder time holding off these timings.
But it would be nice if you upload a replay to see what mistakes you are making in your gameplay.
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EPT
