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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On January 21 2013 16:25 GriNn wrote:
Are there any general guides to play protoss with builds and info that is somewhat current? Or at least matchup guides? I haven't played in a year and have no idea where to start back up again with what builds/playstyles are popular and all that. any help would be greatly appreciated.
Go to the first page of this thread. And click the spoiler under recommended build against each race.
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On January 21 2013 16:29 MysteryMeat1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 16:25 GriNn wrote:
Are there any general guides to play protoss with builds and info that is somewhat current? Or at least matchup guides? I haven't played in a year and have no idea where to start back up again with what builds/playstyles are popular and all that. any help would be greatly appreciated. Go to the first page of this thread. And click the spoiler under recommended build against each race.
Haha thanks, forgot to even look at it since there wasn't much stuff there before. Is this somewhat recent too?
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Ya those have been the standard openers for a bit. However the mid-game choice that you want is completely up to you. All of these openers will pretty much set you up for any game-plan you want.
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United States8476 Posts
On January 21 2013 10:31 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2013 09:52 Dujek wrote:In this post Robo Twilight in the "Mid-Game Thought Process" section - 6:40 monk says that "Most blink stalker all-ins come at 7:10 with 11 stalkers max." How would I go about getting that many blink stalkers at 7:10? What is the best way to open if I want to do this all-in? Thanks. 13 gate (check for proxies on 2 player map) 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core (scout) 19 gas (put 3 probes in it immediately) 19 gate 21 stalker 24 pylon 24 twilight 24 stalker 27 stalker 30 blink 30 gateway 30 stalker 32 stalker 34 pylon 3 stalker warp-in 3 stalker warp-in Chronos: first 3 on probes, one in initial stalker, rest on blink. On maps with bad mining you may have to use a chrono on the third gate. Even with this optimized build I don't think it's possible to have 11 stalkers at the guy's ramp at 7:10 unless you're playing on Entombed or you have a pylon in the guy's natural. Still, blink is done by the time your first 8 reach his base, so it hits early and hard.
Yea, to have it hit at 7:10, you need to basically have to have the pylon in your opponent's natural or something. The last round of 3 stalkers starts at 7:00, takes 5 seconds to warp in, then travels 5 seconds int your opponent's base. Geiko's VOD is a perfect example of this.
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On January 21 2013 16:43 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Ya those have been the standard openers for a bit. However the mid-game choice that you want is completely up to you. All of these openers will pretty much set you up for any game-plan you want.
Thanks, appreciate it!
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The trend of forge in main PvZ is interesting to me, but it seems extremely weak against more economic early pool builds. Depending on the map, 8-10 pool builds get out 6-8 lings fast enough to delay expo a really long time, but aren't so hard on Zerg that they can't queen, double-expo, and drone pretty hard to gain an economic advantage. Is forge in main just not a recommended ladder build, or am I doing something wrong?
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On January 22 2013 04:57 Sway.746 wrote:
The trend of forge in main PvZ is interesting to me, but it seems extremely weak against more economic early pool builds. Depending on the map, 8-10 pool builds get out 6-8 lings fast enough to delay expo a really long time, but aren't so hard on Zerg that they can't queen, double-expo, and drone pretty hard to gain an economic advantage. Is forge in main just not a recommended ladder build, or am I doing something wrong?
I was thinking the exact same thing and was going to come here asking for some ZvP advice. Early pool builds will just rock protoss if you don't block it off. I always block off my natural with forge every game.
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On January 22 2013 04:57 Sway.746 wrote:
The trend of forge in main PvZ is interesting to me, but it seems extremely weak against more economic early pool builds. Depending on the map, 8-10 pool builds get out 6-8 lings fast enough to delay expo a really long time, but aren't so hard on Zerg that they can't queen, double-expo, and drone pretty hard to gain an economic advantage. Is forge in main just not a recommended ladder build, or am I doing something wrong?
It depends on how you define "recommended ladder build." Is it safe vs. every zerg opening? No. As you pointed out, 10 pool is very good against it, and 6/7 pool can be an autoloss depending on how greedy you play (i.e., if you go blind nexus-first like Parting). If your goal on ladder is to improve via solid and safe builds, you probably don't want to do forge in main.
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Italy12246 Posts
From the PvZ guide:
Forge at Natural vs Forge in Main
A common adjustment and recent innovation is to have the first Pylon and the Forge in the main. There are many advantages and disadvantages to this adjustment.
Advantages of Forge in Main:
You won’t have to give up your first Pylon or Forge against a 6 pool on any map; normally this is only possible on easily walled naturals like Shakuras Plateau and Ohana.
You can hide the progress of your upgrades, especially your +1, which leaves Zerg more in the dark about what you’re doing.
It’ll be much harder to snipe the Forge if it’s in the back of your main. The usual front Forge, on the other hand, is a common target for Zerg players.
Disadvantages of Forge in Main:
You’re weaker against Pools between but not including 6 Pool and 14 Pool. Against these unusual Pool timings, you won’t be able to secure your natural with a cannon.
Without the Forge at your front, you’ll have a tougher time walling off, allowing for more easy early run-bys from the Zerg. This is less of an issue on maps with smaller chokes.
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http://drop.sc/297393
Im a diamond league player (rank 2-3 > rank 50ish over 2 day losing streak)
Been having trouble with pre-medivac pushes, This was one of the better games I've been playing. I know I could've opened with a 1 gate FE rather than 2 but I tend to win mid-late game even if I base a minute or two behind the terran. Even still I got supply blocked a bit around 80 and 100 supply right around when the terran medivac push comes.
This was the first terran that got both ghosts and vikings on time (though he microed poorly (especially the vikings).
I seem to have problems using spellcasters, Like I will FF or storm where I want, but I'll have my sentry or templars out of range, so they'll forcefield or storm a good 2-3 seconds late and I'll storm or block my zealots. Should I hotkey my templars on 3 then? Been doing sentry/stalkers on 2 to target air and everything else on 1.
In general any tips? I made numerous errors (not taking gas on my third, forgetting an obs, letting zealots get kited) but was wondering if I need to tweak anything major or any additional tips would be awesome.
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Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days.
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if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right
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On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days.
You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map.
What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out.
On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right
Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head.
A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks.
That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one.
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On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one.
Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here.
That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time.
More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines.
In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out.
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On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out.
From the one time running the sentry immo all-in. I went to his base saw that he had no third and quite a few spine crawlers. My warp prism was out of place so he sniped it with mutas. I just went back home. Built 2 cannon in each mineral line. chronoed another warpprism and just warped in stalkers and then killed him.
The way i see 2 base vs 2 base zvp, is that my army will grow much faster/stronger than a zergs if were both on two base saturation.
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On January 23 2013 03:30 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 15:32 city42 wrote:On January 22 2013 15:08 Whitewing wrote:On January 22 2013 14:47 ineversmile wrote:On January 22 2013 13:48 kuruptt wrote:
Ok, I am so frustrated with zerg right now. I am still in silver league getting rocked by zerg! I am trying to do the immortal sentry all in but its so hard to execute. Is this even a good strat for ladder play? Is there any major tips for this build? I feel as if the zerg rushes mutalisks its GG, which most zerg players do aganist protoss now a days. You said it yourself; it's hard to execute. You have to be able to follow a build order, know fundamental micromanagement skills, and know which pathways to travel on each map. What you should do is post replays of you trying the all-in and failing, so we can more specifically help you out. It's embarrassing, but it's the best way for people on this forum to help you out. On January 22 2013 14:22 freizya wrote:
if zerg goes muta its auto win wince the immortal hits at before 9 if done right Auto-win for whom? Maybe you could elaborate more, if you're going to use the word "auto-win" about an extremely complicated situation where both players have a large number of options and only one of them is fighting head-to-head. A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack. Once mutas pop, sentries in the army with guardian shield and warped in stalkers can make it so the mutas can't engage either, and have to base trade. Warping in cannons at home as soon as you see mutas, along with some stalkers, can ensure a safe defense against a muta base trade, and the opponent won't have anything at his own base to survive. There's a reason you don't see professional players respond to the immortal/sentry all-in with mutalisks. That said, at the silver level, he's likely not able to execute the build to a 9:00 timing due to macro issues. I can't provide any more help to kuruptt than that without a replay, but it seems likely that his problem is simply an execution one. Holding the attack with mutas is not a problem. You see it coming early, sacrifice the third base, and build approximately 15 million spines in your natural. Whether or not that puts the zerg ahead is a different matter altogether. This situation came up in the Hyper X tournament a couple weeks ago, and the VOD of the game can be found here. That typically occurs only when the protoss makes the incorrect call to waste time attacking the third. If the protoss recognizes that the enemy isn't attempting to defend the third, he should just ignore it and go straight for the main base, thus preventing the zerg from having sufficient time. More importantly, in that VOD you linked, his opponent's missed the necessary timing (his attack was a little late), and getting the third base makes it 2 base vs. 2 base, which puts protoss in a position to be able to deal with the mutas since zerg doesn't have the gas count to really mass them. If the zerg sacrifices his third to go 2 base muta, I'd argue protoss is winning even if protoss doesn't push in because there are 30 spines. In the VOD you linked, the protoss got way ahead after the push, even though it didn't win the game right away. The push basically won him the game, it just took a while for it to play out.
Late? I get the feeling you skipped the entire game and just looked at the clock when the attack hit. The attack was "late" because of how the game opened. Yonghwa went forge first and blocked the natural with a pylon, which he let finish. Zerg did not start his second hatchery until 3:54, which is 75 seconds late. If you were expecting a Parting-esque timing after that start, I don't know what to tell you. Being strict, he could have hit ~10 seconds earlier due to the supply block before the first immortal. In the end it wouldn't matter because zerg controlled the watchtower and timed the spines well enough to survive.
Again, zerg being ahead or behind is a totally different discussion. I'm only responding to this:
A properly executed immortal/sentry all-in hits before mutas are out, so someone rushing to mutas will have a very hard time holding the attack.
If you have recent VODs of pro-level zergs dying in the same situation as that Yonghwa game, please link them.
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how do you beat the pvp 3gate void ray contain?
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Italy12246 Posts
There's no such thing as a 3gate void ray contain in PvP. Just tech to either blink, phoenixes or Archons, break down your ramp and kill him. Until massed Void rays are extremely cost inefficient against all those units.
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EPT
