On August 06 2012 13:58 ZeromuS wrote: Can anyone point me in the direction of a strong and solid opening in PvT? I've been trying the creator prime style but been having a very hard time against medivac timings.
The 3 rax medivacs isn't too bad its the 5 barracks with reactored starport before third that really gives me a hard time.
What about it gives you a hard time? If you're not having problems with 3 rax into port into cc, then the 3 rax into port into 5 rax shouldn't give you any problems as long as you can get your first colossi out.
If you're having trouble with the Creator mid game, I suggest the Startale Protoss standard mid game that goes like: robo + 3 gates into forge into twilight into 5 gates into templar archives into 7 gates. There's no guide for it currently, but it's a nice solid, standard style.
Are there any replays out there excluding the GOM vods? I would prefer to watch reps over vods anyday
There a recent replay of him on the last page of my thread.
I meant any replays of the startale style? I see that there are no guides so I was wondering if you do that style opening or if there is a replay resource you know of I can use to learn from reps regarding his build.
On August 07 2012 01:27 ThirdDegree wrote: I have been playing around with the forgeless fast expand PvZ and going for a quick 2 base 4gate to try to take out the third. I only do it on larger maps where I feel safer from quick all ins. Has anyone else done this? Any good build orders? I just sort of wing it when I play
I like to open with a 1gate stalker pressure into Nexus build. It's flexible; you can skip/cancel a zealot if you're not afraid of a 6pool, play defense if you scout 14 gas by the zerg, or go up to 2 gates/do a 4gate of 5gate nexus cancel against a fast 3hatch.
(3 chronos on probes) 9 Pylon (by your nexus so you can pull probes to defend it vs 6-8 pool) 13 Gate-->scout 15 Gas 16 Pylon (high ground again; safer against early pools) 18 Core Zealot when money allows (don't cut probes) Stalkers when Core finishes; boost gateway constantly Third pylon on the low ground to start a wall-off, when it's appropriate for dodging supply block
I usually put 3 on gas because if you scout some kind of gas opening, you can make a sentry after the first stalker or you can immediately go into some other tech path. However, if you put 2 on gas you get 100 gas and then pull them off when the core finishes, so you can immediately go into stalker+WG research but also have more mineral harvesting if you're looking to just go right into Nexus after the first stalker, and then from there you decide when you want them back on gas. But with 3 on gas, I like to go Zealot--Stalker--Stalker and either take my Nexus right then or wait for a third stalker before taking it. After I take my Nexus, I switch over to Sentry production and start walling off the natural.
The goal is to go out there and make sure your opponent isn't taking a third. If he is, you can almost always kill a queen or two, drones, and his lings. If he isn't, you want him to spend more money on defense and take a delayed third. Sometimes the second option means you're going to force so many units that he's all-in, but you should be safe from his counterattack timings if you're actively paying attention with your pressure units and you build a wall-off with a sentry at home. Either way you'll be ahead in tech, but you often are also ahead in workers/production by the time you pull back. The time to pull back is dependent on your opponent's gas timing. If you can see the extractor timing, you can do the math from there. If you can't, you have to guess when he got gas and plan accordingly. Either way, you want to be walking back home about 30 seconds before speed finishes, on most maps. If you do that, you usually come home with all of your stalkers alive, which means your army will be decent should he choose to try to bust your natural.
I used to go into a 4gate to take out his third, as well--but I think it's a bad idea to do this because you could just run into a ton of speedlings on the map and get wrecked...or he decides to tech on 2 bases and you're behind in tech with an even base count. I personally think that it's a stronger transition to go into some kind of tech path right away, instead. I usually do Stargate because Phoenixes are the #1 reason that I play Protoss, but sometimes I instead go double forge into Twilight like it's PvT because Chargelots are really good in even base situations if you keep them 1 or 2 upgrades ahead of the zerg. Robo into third+Warp Prism play isn't exactly bad either...basically, the whole point of the build is to use pressure and build units instead of using a Forge, to deal with the early pools.
If the zerg goes gas/pool, you can see the gas timing on 2player maps in time to wall off your natural. As soon as I see this, I turn my units back around and don't even bother trying to pressure, and I cancel my second stalker for a sentry. The point is to wall off quickly and have a couple forcefields in the bank to deal with a bust. Try not to use pylons for the wall....
I feel like Gateway Expansions are a gamble. If your Opponent does not find the Z key before 6 Minutes you are fine, if he does you are dead.
With 14 Pool and FE, Zerg can produce massive amounts of Lings very early, he uses 6-8 to deny your scouting and then just rallies lots and lots of Lings towards your base, with no wall in and no cannons you can not hope to take your expansion with less then 4 Sentries and at least 4 other Units. And even then it is very micro intensive and relies on him being stupid..
I see these Gateway expansions and keep thinking "If Zerg produces Units, Protoss would die" But the pros don't do that. Except Moon, who crushes..
On August 07 2012 01:27 ThirdDegree wrote: I have been playing around with the forgeless fast expand PvZ and going for a quick 2 base 4gate to try to take out the third. I only do it on larger maps where I feel safer from quick all ins. Has anyone else done this? Any good build orders? I just sort of wing it when I play
I like to open with a 1gate stalker pressure into Nexus build. It's flexible; you can skip/cancel a zealot if you're not afraid of a 6pool, play defense if you scout 14 gas by the zerg, or go up to 2 gates/do a 4gate of 5gate nexus cancel against a fast 3hatch.
(3 chronos on probes) 9 Pylon (by your nexus so you can pull probes to defend it vs 6-8 pool) 13 Gate-->scout 15 Gas 16 Pylon (high ground again; safer against early pools) 18 Core Zealot when money allows (don't cut probes) Stalkers when Core finishes; boost gateway constantly Third pylon on the low ground to start a wall-off, when it's appropriate for dodging supply block
I usually put 3 on gas because if you scout some kind of gas opening, you can make a sentry after the first stalker or you can immediately go into some other tech path. However, if you put 2 on gas you get 100 gas and then pull them off when the core finishes, so you can immediately go into stalker+WG research but also have more mineral harvesting if you're looking to just go right into Nexus after the first stalker, and then from there you decide when you want them back on gas. But with 3 on gas, I like to go Zealot--Stalker--Stalker and either take my Nexus right then or wait for a third stalker before taking it. After I take my Nexus, I switch over to Sentry production and start walling off the natural.
The goal is to go out there and make sure your opponent isn't taking a third. If he is, you can almost always kill a queen or two, drones, and his lings. If he isn't, you want him to spend more money on defense and take a delayed third. Sometimes the second option means you're going to force so many units that he's all-in, but you should be safe from his counterattack timings if you're actively paying attention with your pressure units and you build a wall-off with a sentry at home. Either way you'll be ahead in tech, but you often are also ahead in workers/production by the time you pull back. The time to pull back is dependent on your opponent's gas timing. If you can see the extractor timing, you can do the math from there. If you can't, you have to guess when he got gas and plan accordingly. Either way, you want to be walking back home about 30 seconds before speed finishes, on most maps. If you do that, you usually come home with all of your stalkers alive, which means your army will be decent should he choose to try to bust your natural.
I used to go into a 4gate to take out his third, as well--but I think it's a bad idea to do this because you could just run into a ton of speedlings on the map and get wrecked...or he decides to tech on 2 bases and you're behind in tech with an even base count. I personally think that it's a stronger transition to go into some kind of tech path right away, instead. I usually do Stargate because Phoenixes are the #1 reason that I play Protoss, but sometimes I instead go double forge into Twilight like it's PvT because Chargelots are really good in even base situations if you keep them 1 or 2 upgrades ahead of the zerg. Robo into third+Warp Prism play isn't exactly bad either...basically, the whole point of the build is to use pressure and build units instead of using a Forge, to deal with the early pools.
If the zerg goes gas/pool, you can see the gas timing on 2player maps in time to wall off your natural. As soon as I see this, I turn my units back around and don't even bother trying to pressure, and I cancel my second stalker for a sentry. The point is to wall off quickly and have a couple forcefields in the bank to deal with a bust. Try not to use pylons for the wall....
I feel like Gateway Expansions are a gamble. If your Opponent does not find the Z key before 6 Minutes you are fine, if he does you are dead.
With 14 Pool and FE, Zerg can produce massive amounts of Lings very early, he uses 6-8 to deny your scouting and then just rallies lots and lots of Lings towards your base, with no wall in and no cannons you can not hope to take your expansion with less then 4 Sentries and at least 4 other Units. And even then it is very micro intensive and relies on him being stupid..
I see these Gateway expansions and keep thinking "If Zerg produces Units, Protoss would die" But the pros don't do that. Except Moon, who crushes..
On two player maps you can make the decision of whether or not to Sentry expand or Stalker expand after scouting, assuming you Pylon scout. A Sentry expand does just fine against Zerglings.
Sure it does, but the expansion is way later than a FFE and you can not put on a lot of pressure with Sentries. I just cannot figure out the advantage of the Gateway Expansion. If Zerg does not go for the 6 Minute 3rd Base you have no chance of doing damage. Granted, you delay the third base by a couple of minutes, but you delay your 2end by a couple of minutes as well.
And I feel like the Gas from your second is soo needed.
Should the Zerg not get his third as soon as you get your second? In that case you would have given him a huge advantage (2 base v 1 as compared to 3 base v 2) not even counting the fact that against a 6 Min. 3rd my natural is done when he starts his third..
________________
The thing is, I had a pretty long pause and after I returned I did the Sentry Expansion as I was used to do before. I lost every single PvZ with no clue what I was doing wrong. After a couple of days I saw the FFE in a pro-match and my eyes were opened.
Hi guys, I'm a BW player trying to get into SC2 again after a big break. I play random but have some problems with my protoss, especially PvZ. I don't really know what to do in this matchup, right now I go FFE and... there it's a dead end. I usually end up trying to fly in a warp prism and do sentry harassment (force field the ramp, warp in zealots). It ends up either very good or very bad for me when I do this. I want something more stable.
I like being aggressive, especially in the midgame. Like putting up a lot of gateways and try to deny the zergs third or at least do some damage while taking the third. Is there any guides on this or any player I can follow that does this? Is it a good way to play right now at all?
Question: When scouting a T what builds should make me abandon my intended 1 gate FE? What can I hold with Zealot Stalker Stalker Nexus, and vs what is that too greedy?
Does anyone have a build order to 3-Gate pressure after a 1-Gate F.E? I searched TL.net for any pressure guides in PvT, but I can't seem to find any. I know the 7-gate attack that hits around 8 to 9 minutes, but I feel like it's way too all-in'ish.
On August 07 2012 01:27 ThirdDegree wrote: I have been playing around with the forgeless fast expand PvZ and going for a quick 2 base 4gate to try to take out the third. I only do it on larger maps where I feel safer from quick all ins. Has anyone else done this? Any good build orders? I just sort of wing it when I play
I like to open with a 1gate stalker pressure into Nexus build. It's flexible; you can skip/cancel a zealot if you're not afraid of a 6pool, play defense if you scout 14 gas by the zerg, or go up to 2 gates/do a 4gate of 5gate nexus cancel against a fast 3hatch.
(3 chronos on probes) 9 Pylon (by your nexus so you can pull probes to defend it vs 6-8 pool) 13 Gate-->scout 15 Gas 16 Pylon (high ground again; safer against early pools) 18 Core Zealot when money allows (don't cut probes) Stalkers when Core finishes; boost gateway constantly Third pylon on the low ground to start a wall-off, when it's appropriate for dodging supply block
I usually put 3 on gas because if you scout some kind of gas opening, you can make a sentry after the first stalker or you can immediately go into some other tech path. However, if you put 2 on gas you get 100 gas and then pull them off when the core finishes, so you can immediately go into stalker+WG research but also have more mineral harvesting if you're looking to just go right into Nexus after the first stalker, and then from there you decide when you want them back on gas. But with 3 on gas, I like to go Zealot--Stalker--Stalker and either take my Nexus right then or wait for a third stalker before taking it. After I take my Nexus, I switch over to Sentry production and start walling off the natural.
The goal is to go out there and make sure your opponent isn't taking a third. If he is, you can almost always kill a queen or two, drones, and his lings. If he isn't, you want him to spend more money on defense and take a delayed third. Sometimes the second option means you're going to force so many units that he's all-in, but you should be safe from his counterattack timings if you're actively paying attention with your pressure units and you build a wall-off with a sentry at home. Either way you'll be ahead in tech, but you often are also ahead in workers/production by the time you pull back. The time to pull back is dependent on your opponent's gas timing. If you can see the extractor timing, you can do the math from there. If you can't, you have to guess when he got gas and plan accordingly. Either way, you want to be walking back home about 30 seconds before speed finishes, on most maps. If you do that, you usually come home with all of your stalkers alive, which means your army will be decent should he choose to try to bust your natural.
I used to go into a 4gate to take out his third, as well--but I think it's a bad idea to do this because you could just run into a ton of speedlings on the map and get wrecked...or he decides to tech on 2 bases and you're behind in tech with an even base count. I personally think that it's a stronger transition to go into some kind of tech path right away, instead. I usually do Stargate because Phoenixes are the #1 reason that I play Protoss, but sometimes I instead go double forge into Twilight like it's PvT because Chargelots are really good in even base situations if you keep them 1 or 2 upgrades ahead of the zerg. Robo into third+Warp Prism play isn't exactly bad either...basically, the whole point of the build is to use pressure and build units instead of using a Forge, to deal with the early pools.
If the zerg goes gas/pool, you can see the gas timing on 2player maps in time to wall off your natural. As soon as I see this, I turn my units back around and don't even bother trying to pressure, and I cancel my second stalker for a sentry. The point is to wall off quickly and have a couple forcefields in the bank to deal with a bust. Try not to use pylons for the wall....
I feel like Gateway Expansions are a gamble. If your Opponent does not find the Z key before 6 Minutes you are fine, if he does you are dead.
With 14 Pool and FE, Zerg can produce massive amounts of Lings very early, he uses 6-8 to deny your scouting and then just rallies lots and lots of Lings towards your base, with no wall in and no cannons you can not hope to take your expansion with less then 4 Sentries and at least 4 other Units. And even then it is very micro intensive and relies on him being stupid..
I see these Gateway expansions and keep thinking "If Zerg produces Units, Protoss would die" But the pros don't do that. Except Moon, who crushes..
On two player maps you can make the decision of whether or not to Sentry expand or Stalker expand after scouting, assuming you Pylon scout. A Sentry expand does just fine against Zerglings.
Sure it does, but the expansion is way later than a FFE and you can not put on a lot of pressure with Sentries. I just cannot figure out the advantage of the Gateway Expansion. If Zerg does not go for the 6 Minute 3rd Base you have no chance of doing damage. Granted, you delay the third base by a couple of minutes, but you delay your 2end by a couple of minutes as well.
And I feel like the Gas from your second is soo needed.
Should the Zerg not get his third as soon as you get your second? In that case you would have given him a huge advantage (2 base v 1 as compared to 3 base v 2) not even counting the fact that against a 6 Min. 3rd my natural is done when he starts his third..
________________
The thing is, I had a pretty long pause and after I returned I did the Sentry Expansion as I was used to do before. I lost every single PvZ with no clue what I was doing wrong. After a couple of days I saw the FFE in a pro-match and my eyes were opened.
The one way I have been doing it, and with some measure of success, has been expanding at 16 and walling off as if I'm going FFE, but with gateways/cycore. I typically only do this on very large maps in the hopes that by the time my opponent catches wind that there are no cannons, he's already gone for 3 hatch or committed to mutas or something. I then go in to a 4gate and try to take out his third and tech behind it. I haven't been consistent with it, and when the zerg prepares enough spines to defend in time, the aggression gets stopped, but usually I'm not too far behind. But I'm only platinum, so the skill level of myself and my opponents makes me question the validity of this strategy.
On August 07 2012 19:01 rEalGuapo wrote:I feel like Gateway Expansions are a gamble. If your Opponent does not find the Z key before 6 Minutes you are fine, if he does you are dead.
With 14 Pool and FE, Zerg can produce massive amounts of Lings very early, he uses 6-8 to deny your scouting and then just rallies lots and lots of Lings towards your base, with no wall in and no cannons you can not hope to take your expansion with less then 4 Sentries and at least 4 other Units. And even then it is very micro intensive and relies on him being stupid..
If your opponent makes 8 or less lings and decides to engage your units, 2 microed stalkers will beat the crap out of them and live to tell the tale. This is exactly why marines are good against slow lings; you stutter step.
If he decides to make more than 8 lings off a 14 pool (which is cutting economical corners...why wouldn't he do this on 15 before scouting gateway play?), then you can take your nexus later and go home with your pressure. I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp. People are so scared of zerg all-ins because they're used to the FFE where you basically live in the dark and play guessing games about how much defense to build (or to cut). Cannons are not as good as units that can move.
I see these Gateway expansions and keep thinking "If Zerg produces Units, Protoss would die" But the pros don't do that. Except Moon, who crushes..
It's interesting that you brought up Moon, who was a player that revolutionalized Warcraft 3 by expanding everywhere with a bunch of low HP units against a bunch of fast melee units and AoE-casting heroes. And that was in War3, which was basically the land of 1-base play. Nobody thought you could do that with Archer/Talon against Undead's Ghouls/Gargoyles and Nuke heroes, but he made it work beautifully. Granted, he was very skilled to pull it off, but that doesn't mean it was a gimmick--it worked against fantastick undead players who knew how to fight the composition and did their best to multitask harass. It means it just took a high skill threshold to execute the strategy. If something is challenging, it's still possible.
On August 07 2012 19:50 Sated wrote:On two player maps you can make the decision of whether or not to Sentry expand or Stalker expand after scouting, assuming you Pylon scout. A Sentry expand does just fine against Zerglings.
Actually, you can Gate scout on 2player maps and see everything in time to make decisions. On 4 player maps, you have to do things differently, but then again the zerg is gambling more by early pooling on a 4 player map.
On August 07 2012 19:59 rEalGuapo wrote: Sure it does, but the expansion is way later than a FFE
The FFE is an opening that throws away early game mobile combat units in order to take a faster Nexus, but the faster nexus also requires you cut probes at 16-18 supply. With a gateway opener, you only take 2 short probe cuts: the 5 second one at 9 Pylon, and then in the high 20s or ~30 supply when you cut probes for 10 seconds to take your nexus. Before that, you have a better probe saturation and a constant production of them, so you have a comparable amount to the FFE. However, you're not throwing 300 minerals away on the Forge and Cannon that early, and you're getting faster tech out. When your Nexus finishes, you will have a couple less probes than the FFE from a game clock benchmark, but that's about it. It's not as big of a discrepancy as you would think.
and you can not put on a lot of pressure with Sentries.
You only build sentries when you have decided it's time to stop applying pressure. If you scout cheese, that means you build a sentry after your first stalker. If you scout economy, you build a sentry after you pop the Nexus down.
I just cannot figure out the advantage of the Gateway Expansion. If Zerg does not go for the 6 Minute 3rd Base you have no chance of doing damage. Granted, you delay the third base by a couple of minutes, but you delay your 2end by a couple of minutes as well.
The advantage is that you can punish the zerg and force him into killing his drones by producing buildings (gas/spines/roach warren, etc) and non-drone units (zerglings), or otherwise you go and kill his drones. Often, you can kill a queen early, too. That means screwing up injects or creep spread. Messing with injects means less drones or less units for the incoming all-in (if your opponent chooses that). There's also potential lost mining time from the drones being pulled to their main, if Z skimps on defense. All you want to do is do enough damage to maintain a 4-5 worker lead for a while, which is what you'll have if you don't FFE and instead you constantly produce probes.
And I feel like the Gas from your second is soo needed.
I'm cool with using feelings to make some judgment calls at a glance, but if we're going to talk about the ups and downs of specific openings, then there needs to be more than emotion invested in this. What do you want a third gas for, at that point in the game? I like going Stargate after my natural finishes, and I don't have gas problems with that. I tend to take my third gas in time for the Nexus to finish, then rally 3 probes there right away--you can get your extra gas suprisingly fast, that way.
Should the Zerg not get his third as soon as you get your second? In that case you would have given him a huge advantage (2 base v 1 as compared to 3 base v 2) not even counting the fact that against a 6 Min. 3rd my natural is done when he starts his third..
If you have a Zealot and 2 stalkers across the map and he took a third, you can either go cancel it and kill the drone, or you can go up his ramp and kill a queen and some other stuff. If he keeps the third, he has slower queens and he needs to also make a bunch of lings and usually a spine in order to push you away without pulling his drones and losing a bunch of workers. Win-win for protoss. Against your 3 units, he needs at least a dozen speedlings to force you away. Not 6 or 8--a dozen. You can trade away your zealot for 4 lings and pull back with the stalkers, and be happy with that kind of indirect economical damage.
The thing is, I had a pretty long pause and after I returned I did the Sentry Expansion as I was used to do before. I lost every single PvZ with no clue what I was doing wrong. After a couple of days I saw the FFE in a pro-match and my eyes were opened.
The FFE isn't a bad opening, but that doesn't make it the only good opening. 13gate is very, very real.
I'm still not sure how viable it is on maps with large chokes at the natural, though (e.g. Daybreak). However, on maps with smaller chokes to the natural (e.g Ohana or CK) then I believe it to be a lot more viable. The main thing is to have your 3rd pylon on the low ground and to begin the wall-off by ~5.00. If he has indeed opened gas/pool, then there is no need to pressure although you can fake; you've delayed his expand and the third. All you need to do is protect your natural and go from there.
I still take my second gas relatively early though, although I've moved it from 21 to about 25/26 supply as I found I was supply blocking myself a little with unit/probe production. Personally, I prefer the earlier gas for Sentry production, for Hallucination (right after WG), and, if necessary, for fast +1 off the Forge. I rather enjoy gate expands, to be honest.
That said, I might start to incorporate Stalkers into my opening (I'm Zealot and Sentry heavy at the start - it might also be because I dislike Stalkers). My micro sucks though, but I guess that means I'll have to improve it with practice.
Hey I am wondering if anyone has a good build that is the counter to 2 barrack aggresion and the right followup? I lost twice today first one that just went allin 2 barracks and I didnt respond correctly, then I lost to one that expanded while he was doing it..pls help me.
On August 08 2012 05:06 aZealot wrote: I'm still not sure how viable it is on maps with large chokes at the natural, though (e.g. Daybreak). However, on maps with smaller chokes to the natural (e.g Ohana or CK) then I believe it to be a lot more viable. The main thing is to have your 3rd pylon on the low ground and to begin the wall-off by ~5.00. If he has indeed opened gas/pool, then there is no need to pressure, you've delayed his expand and the third. All you need to do is protect your natural and go from there.
I think it's just fine on Daybreak. You might want to cut some probes against gas/pool to wall off faster, but that's about it. With stalkers, you can fight a handful of lings at your natural, using kiting.
I still take my second gas relatively early though, although I've moved it from 21 to about 25/26 supply as I found I was supply blocking myself a little with unit/probe production. Personally, I prefer the earlier gas for Sentry production, for Hallucination (right after WG), and, if necessary, for fast +1 off the Forge. As I've said before, I rather enjoy gate expands.
That's an interesting take on it. I tend to get 2-3 stalkers, then Sentry+Nexus, then Gas, then back to probes and I get my wall-off going at about that point
That said, I might start to incorporate Stalkers into my opening (I'm Zealot and Sentry heavy at the start - it might also be because I dislike Stalkers). My micro sucks though, but I guess that means I'll have to improve it with practice.
I'm not a big fan of stalkers, either, but they are really, really good in the early game. Work on that micro; It's worth it!
In PvP in the midgame, how can you get a read on when your opponent is going to move out? I'm trying out a new style I came up with that is really light on colossi, and so far it's been really hit-or-miss. I know more or less how to stop each timing they can move out, but the reactions are really different for each one and I'm struggling at figuring it out. How do you tell whether they'll move out at 2 colossi, or 5, or just turtle and max at like 14?
On August 08 2012 11:53 Kovaz wrote: In PvP in the midgame, how can you get a read on when your opponent is going to move out? I'm trying out a new style I came up with that is really light on colossi, and so far it's been really hit-or-miss. I know more or less how to stop each timing they can move out, but the reactions are really different for each one and I'm struggling at figuring it out. How do you tell whether they'll move out at 2 colossi, or 5, or just turtle and max at like 14?
Good players move out either when they have a strong timing (Forge upgrades finishing or a bunch of gates finishing for warp-ins during the attack) or when they see you're getting ahead of them/your army is weak because you're focusing on expanding and teching over units. Or they're going to create a timing by forcing you out of position with a warp prism/air units/split attacks. Generally, that's when attacks come.
On August 08 2012 00:40 Necosarius wrote: Hi guys, I'm a BW player trying to get into SC2 again after a big break. I play random but have some problems with my protoss, especially PvZ. I don't really know what to do in this matc
hup, right now I go FFE and... there it's a dead end. I usually end up trying to fly in a warp prism and do sentry harassment (force field the ramp, warp in zealots). It ends up either very good or very bad for me when I do this. I want something more stable.
I like being aggressive, especially in the midgame. Like putting up a lot of gateways and try to deny the zergs third or at least do some damage while taking the third. Is there any guides on this or any player I can follow that does this? Is it a good way to play right now at all?
The +1 zealot 4 gate into 6 gate blink with observer/robo is very strong. It can be played as an all in most often but it gives you a few options if you tweak it.
Since you go for a fast +2 attack and blink, followed by Robotics you can choose to expand with the 4 gates without adding another 2.
I usually base my decision to expand off of how much damage I am able to do against the zerg with the 8 minute timing with +1 zealots OR based on what I scout. If I see speedlings and no roaches to defend my zealots I always go for 7 gate blink since I believe that they will be playing a 3 base muta style.
Personally, I have a very very hard time with 3 base muta play so I choose to hit a timing to kill them with 7 gate blink.
If the opponent has roaches and deflects my attack easily at the 8 minute mark I stick to 4 gates and expand with blink while getting immortals AFTER my expo.
I do like to make a warp prism instead of obs to scout though since it is faster and gives you the option of being aggressive while defending and countering should the Zerg choose to attack.
The guide to the MC style 4 gate pressure into 6 gate obs can be found here:
The reason I like the robo variant is that by cutting your extra gates you can expand to a third base with more sentries to defend alongside blink stalkers. IF you know you will be doing an all in you can skip the observer and robo bay. The reason there was an obs in this timing shown is due to the fact that at the time, the metagame involved getting roach burrow quickly to deny this kind of an all in.
On August 08 2012 00:42 esaul17 wrote: Question: When scouting a T what builds should make me abandon my intended 1 gate FE? What can I hold with Zealot Stalker Stalker Nexus, and vs what is that too greedy?
Generally, any sort of attack before 6 minutes will give me pause. Proxy barracks cheese is obviously way before any expansion would go down, but that would throw off pretty much any build. Early (5:30) Marine aggression will make me think twice about whether I want to cancel my Nexus before it finishes, but if you're making Sentries then you shouldn't have a problem in most instances unless the map doesn't allow for FF defense at your natural's choke.
MC's 1 Gate FE is very safe and will hold pretty much anything. I default to this build in PvT, though I scout and look for opportunities to drop my Nexus earlier if the opponent is not being aggressive. Keep in mind two things: 1) If they are building an EARLY 2nd Depot to wall in and prevent you from scouting their base, they aren't going to have the minerals to perform a standard 2 rax early pressure build. If they do let you in, you will be able to scout early gas or not and maybe even see the 2nd Rax go down. 2) If you see only one base, and aren't sure what they are doing, build a Robo immediately before or after your Nexus (depending on how comfortable you feel) and get an Obs to see what's up. Be careful of Banshees in this situation.
On August 08 2012 00:46 iremnant3847 wrote: Hey guys,
Does anyone have a build order to 3-Gate pressure after a 1-Gate F.E? I searched TL.net for any pressure guides in PvT, but I can't seem to find any. I know the 7-gate attack that hits around 8 to 9 minutes, but I feel like it's way too all-in'ish.
This is one example, and day9 gives a great analysis of why this is so efficient and puts a classic 4Gate strategy to shame. It is a 1Gate FE into 3Gate pressure that can hit at 6:30 with 8 units, or 7 with 11 units.
Also, MC does a lot of 3 Gate pressure so I would recommend watching a bunch of his PvT replays too.
What is the best assignment of hotkeys as Protoss?
I find that I actually run out of free hotkeys sometimes. I have, right now: - 1 (F) for all Nexi/all Tech buildings - 2 (D) for all Gateways/Robos/Stargates - 3 for main army - 4 and 5 for Observers/Warp Prisms/Air Fleet - 6 (E) and 7 (R) for Probes (Scouting/Building/Proxies/Towers) - 8 (T) for Templars - 9 (G) and 0 (B) for Harass/Flank/Base Defense
I feel I shouldn't use hotkeys for Probes/Obs. Should I have them on camera hotkeys instead?
Do you have main-army Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries/Colossi separately hotkeyed? What (if any) units do you have in your main army that are not in your main army hotkey?
On August 08 2012 15:12 Roadog wrote: What is the best assignment of hotkeys as Protoss?
I find that I actually run out of free hotkeys sometimes. I have, right now: - 1 (F) for all Nexi/all Tech buildings - 2 (D) for all Gateways/Robos/Stargates - 3 for main army - 4 and 5 for Observers/Warp Prisms/Air Fleet - 6 (E) and 7 (R) for Probes (Scouting/Building/Proxies/Towers) - 8 (T) for Templars - 9 (G) and 0 (B) for Harass/Flank/Base Defense
I feel I shouldn't use hotkeys for Probes/Obs. Should I have them on camera hotkeys instead?
Do you have main-army Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries/Colossi separately hotkeyed? What (if any) units do you have in your main army that are not in your main army hotkey?
having two hotkeys for Probes the entire game is way too much imo.
I my scouting probe is hotkeyd early game and after that I have none on a hotkey. I got space as a camera hotkey, where I will place all my tech buildings, so that they are nice and centered in my base. Stole this from the Artosis hotkey video. It is nice because you can chrono real fast and are forced to build there so mutas and drops won't snipe tech as easy. So what I do is I take a random probe from my mineral line, hit space and build whatever it is I want to build. No hotkey needed at all. Observers on hotkeys make perfect sense because you want to be able to control them via minimap and tab there quickly to see what he has.
I would do it more like this: E Robos Stargates R Tech building of Choice, for me that would be Forges.
Then you can always check everything real quick with space if needed and you don't have 4 Nexi 2 Forges a Twilight and a Robo Bay on one hotkey. That must be pretty annoying..
EPT
