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 JangBi showed a nice build recently in proleague against  Sacsri. [vod]
Rough skeleton:
- 9 pylon -> scout (chrono probes x3)
- 17 nexus
- 17 forge
- 17 gateway
- 17 pylon
- 18 cannon @ 100% forge (if necessary hold position probe to block lings until cannon is up)
- 19 assimilator
- core @ 100% gateway
- zealot x2 (chrono gateway constantly)
- warpgate @ 100% core
- stalker x5 (chrono gateway constantly)
- 2nd assimilator after starting 2nd stalker
- 3rd assimilator after starting 3rd stalker
- nexus
- +1 attack (after starting nexus and 4th stalker)
Basically if zerg goes for a no/late gas fast 3hatch play you pressure his 3rd base with units from one gateway while building probes and taking a quick 3rd off of only a forge and one gateway.
Add a bunch of gates to be safe against a counter attack. Then transition into your tech path of choice.
In this game jangbi goes up to +2 blink and adds even more gates after saturating 3 base minerals and 4gas and kills with pure blink stalkers at ~11 minutes.
Obviously if you scout an early pool or an early gas you have to deviate and change your build.
This build is a ton of fun to execute.
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Wait, so if i understand correctly you build 2 zealots and 5 stalkers off of a single gateway? Seems cool because you have excess minerals and just enough gas to get your third and potentially deny Z's third but, can you give me an idea when does the timing hit?
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On July 15 2012 03:07 Silencioseu wrote:
Wait, so if i understand correctly you build 2 zealots and 5 stalkers off of a single gateway? Seems cool because you have excess minerals and just enough gas to get your third and potentially deny Z's third but, can you give me an idea when does the timing hit?
No, he is referring to how many chronos you use on the gateway I think. I use the exact same build myself lol. Personally I chrono out 1 zealot and 3 stalkers to deny scouting and feign pressure. The problem is that you won't have excess minerals, though. Because once that nexus goes down (all 400 +100 for pylon), you need to add like 5-6 gates, just so you don't die to any timing the zerg throws at you. So you have to be very calculated with your early game spending.
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You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
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You can either attack immediately or wait for your first stalker. If you attack immediately just be sure to retain your zealots until at least your first stalker arrives. Then you just rally stalkers across to constantly reinforce and just use good micro against slow lings, queens and/or slow roaches
Remember 2 zealot hits + 1 stalker hit kills a ling so you can think of your first stalker as a stand in for +1 attack with your 2 zealots against his initial lings.
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On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
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I've been doing this build quite a lot. I'm in diamond and managed to hit the timings pretty good - around 25 +2 blink stalker attack at 11:30. Whenever I do the really quick third after the 2 zealot 1 stalker pressure, it seems like it can't really be punished. A cannon behind gateways isn't going to die to the slow ling reaction.
The blink timing has been pretty hit and miss for me. You have to hit your timings really well which I guess is hard for me to do at diamond. Anything past 12 mins and the attack just doesn't work. It seems like a pretty all in build as well despite the third base. If your 11 min blink stalker attack fails then you're really far behind, you have like no tech.
The pressure works good for me in diamond as well, they always over react. It's a great fast third build.
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On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
If you can hold the counter attack (which so far I've been able to every time) why wouldn't you want to force attacking units?
As for him being able to trade more cost efficiently I don't think that's true. It's going to be potentially speedlings and slow roaches at this counter attack timing. Good simcity and micro along with a cannon or 2 lets you trade very very efficiently.
This 3rd is ridiculously early (~7 minutes). Zerg really doesn't get very cost efficient until roach speed which won't be ready for a counter attack with any units you're going to force at this timing.
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I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
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On July 15 2012 03:29 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case. If you can hold the counter attack (which so far I've been able to every time) why wouldn't you want to force attacking units? As for him being able to trade more cost efficiently I don't think that's true. It's going to be potentially speedlings and slow roaches at this counter attack timing. Good simcity and micro along with a cannon or 2 lets you trade very very efficiently. This 3rd is ridiculously early (~7 minutes). Zerg really doesn't get very cost efficient until roach speed which won't be ready for a counter attack with any units you're going to force at this timing.
I've been able to hold against mid-tier zergs as well. However, once you move into higher level play, you simply can't hold. Even with cannons and good micro. The reason is that Zerg simply saturates and produces faster than protoss, especially early on. Once he hits 60 + drones, he can just send waves and waves of roaches at you, which you won't be able to hold constantly, as you are trying to establish your own tech, and you are still saturating.
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On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote:
I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
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On July 15 2012 03:41 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:29 Jaeger wrote:On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case. If you can hold the counter attack (which so far I've been able to every time) why wouldn't you want to force attacking units? As for him being able to trade more cost efficiently I don't think that's true. It's going to be potentially speedlings and slow roaches at this counter attack timing. Good simcity and micro along with a cannon or 2 lets you trade very very efficiently. This 3rd is ridiculously early (~7 minutes). Zerg really doesn't get very cost efficient until roach speed which won't be ready for a counter attack with any units you're going to force at this timing. I've been able to hold against mid-tier zergs as well. However, once you move into higher level play, you simply can't hold. Even with cannons and good micro. The reason is that Zerg simply saturates and produces faster than protoss, especially early on. Once he hits 60 + drones, he can just send waves and waves of roaches at you, which you won't be able to hold constantly, as you are trying to establish your own tech, and you are still saturating.
60+ drones into waves and waves of speed roaches comes after 11 minutes in a standard passive game. It's going to be even later or weaker after zerg has to produce units early on to hold off your pressure.
If you have replays where you play this build well and lose to roach waves feel free to post them but it doesn't seem like it can be any harder than holding an 8 minute 3rd with gateway tech in a standard passive game.
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Intresting approach from JangBi. Thank you for posting this for people who did not watch that game.
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On July 15 2012 03:46 city42 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote:
I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer. I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
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On July 15 2012 04:28 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:46 city42 wrote:On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote:
I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer. I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus... On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
Odd if i scout after pylon on 2 player maps i can get there before putting a 13 forge down, but i agree on the 4 player map risk, but in tournaments, how many 4 player maps are their?
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On July 15 2012 04:28 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:46 city42 wrote:On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote:
I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer. I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus... On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
The game this build was taken from was on Cloud Kingdom, so obviously the specific build order is tailored to a 2 player map. Any PvZ build order assumes that you know the ins and outs of opening with FFE. Basic stuff like that is covered in other places which are linked to in the "SC2 Strategy Forum Guidelines: Read First" thread. It's completely unreasonable to expect the OP to cover every FFE scenario when people should already have read up on them beforehand.
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I like it, this is similar to what I've been doing with my 1 gate fe PvZ, except you can pressure sooner with zealots and faster warpgate. My current build gets a 5:30 nexus, right after the first 2 zealots and stalker chase the scouting lings and overlord away. Need to explore transitions more fully, I quite like the blink play shown here.
This also relies on the current metagame -- if zergs start getting earlier roach warrens reactively, it could just die outright.
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After playing this some more the most annoying thing is if zerg puts one ling at the 3rd.
Delays the nexus and/or one of your reinforcing stalkers and forces you to split your attention from the front where you're undoubtedly microing hard.
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I tried this today and did it fairly poorly against a buddy of mine that is a diamond zerg (my Toss is probably high diamond, I ladder as random and most of my losses are as Toss) and it smashed him. I tried it again on ladder vs a mid-masters Zerg and with a much cleaner execution it worked gangbusters. Zerg counter-attacked after I did a small amount of damage (killed a handful of lings, forced three spines, killed a queen, disrupted mining at his third), but I had 2 canons and a gateway wall up at my third and enough units to keep him at bay. I added a Robo and Colossus den as soon as I had the cash, whilst also going for blink. I pushed out near maxed and rolled him before he got broodlords. He went for light-medium roach aggression which didn't do too much, I lost some zealots was about all.
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It's good to finally see Protoss players (or at least just Jangbi) do something REALLY cool without centering everything around Warp Gate tech, and off of a single gateway! But it's heavily reliant on Zergs being as greedy as they've been the past several months. If they'd just get early Ling Speed, they could not only stop the pressure, but more or less deny your third base until you have a decent army. It'd be nice if Protoss players throw in early non-warp pressure like this to force Zerg players to be a little less greedy and maybe force them to at least get an earlier Ling Speed. Hell, it'd be REALLY cool if Protoss players started developing a lot of cool little pressure openers that didn't rely on Warp Gate tech.
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EPT
