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On July 25 2012 04:00 Vaporak wrote:
Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening.
1 gate expand is viable. It's not used commonly because Nexus first is better economically.
However, if you wall off low ground with your 1 gate and pylons you can be 100% safe from ling pressure, and still get forge in time for roach all ins if necessary.
Typically I go
9 pylon
13 gate
15 pylon
18 nexus
18 zealot
21 gas
22 cyber
23 zealot
and continue with the OP's build from there, chronoing out stalker/sentry and taking a fast 3rd off 1 gate.
You scout on 13, and if you see earlier pool just chrono zealots and sim city for the win.
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On July 27 2012 01:48 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 04:00 Vaporak wrote:
Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening. 1 gate expand is viable. It's not used commonly because Nexus first is better economically.
This is true, but by going purerly for economy with Nexus first you force yourself to either go into Forge+cannon or you have to take a serious gamble with a late gateway. Also, Nexus first almost always is followed by a serious probe cut because you have to build a Nexus, Forge, and often Gateway before your second pylon--and then you resume production. So if you open with a Gateway, it won't give you that faster nexus, but you have a probe lead over the zerg consistently until his first inject makes 4 drones; you are constantly producing probes. And then he has to deal with the fact that you have some units, which means map control, more careful overlord placement, and no third base until he gets the units/ling speed to defend it. So all you really have to do is hang on to that early worker count, force him to make a couple non-drone units (or kill drones by turning them into a gas/spine crawler), and then get your second Nexus up about when your main is fully saturated.
However, if you wall off low ground with your 1 gate and pylons you can be 100% safe from ling pressure, and still get forge in time for roach all ins if necessary.
Typically I go
9 pylon
13 gate
15 pylon
18 nexus
18 zealot
21 gas
22 cyber
23 zealot
and continue with the OP's build from there, chronoing out stalker/sentry and taking a fast 3rd off 1 gate.
You scout on 13, and if you see earlier pool just chrono zealots and sim city for the win.
This is pretty safe and solid. I personally think that building your 13 gate in your main is the safest from early pools because you can use probe pulls to defend it quickly without losing too much mining time. Then, later on, you wall the low ground with additional gates/Forge/Twilight to deal with speedling run-bys. If you see really early (non-reactionary) gas, you can wall off the natural earlier. Or you can put the second gate down there before your Nexus and go for some 2gate pressure.
So for me it's:
9 pylon (constant probes after this)
13 gate (by nexus/gas)-->probe scout
14 gas
16 pylon (by nexus and gateway)
17 core
Zealot
Constant Stalkers after Zealot
Nexus
2nd Gas
Wall-off low ground and choose tech path/transition
I boost workers 3 times (even against scouted 6pool) and then constantly boost my gateway for more units until the second Nexus is done. You can also cancel the Zealot if you see Hatch first or a late pool and use the extra minerals to get a faster nexus.
It's ridiculously safe because your base is very close together in the beginning of the game, then you have a Zealot and Stalker to kill/chase away lings. When you go to poke with the Zealot and Stalker, your second Stalker pops out and denies ling scouting up your ramp, and then as that one goes across the map you have a third to pop out; etc. If you see like 8 or 10 lings, your Zealot and 2 Stalkers will clean all of that up if they try to engage, and if you see gas coming, it usually means you just pull back 30 seconds before the speed timing and build a sentry, and by then your base is walled off at the natural and you can punish overextension from speedlings with the forcefield.
I saw Mana doing it on his stream yesterday and was thinking, this is exactly what I've been playing lately! I like what Jambi did with the constant boost on the gateway from a 16 Nexus FFE, but it seems like you could one-up it with a full-blown 13 Gate Stalker pressure expand. The principle is the same, but the timings are much earlier.
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Loving this build ATM, but one trouble i having that i dont with other builds is over building probes. I keep building 80+ haha
Ive also found that this buld helps so much with your multitasking. Props to the OP
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On July 27 2012 08:02 wOod LeaGue wrote:
Loving this build ATM, but one trouble i having that i dont with other builds is over building probes. I keep building 80+ haha
Ive also found that this buld helps so much with your multitasking. Props to the OP
Yeah you get saturated so quickly. I think maybe 5 or so probes after you saturate your third base it's time to stop building probes.
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After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker.
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On July 27 2012 08:02 wOod LeaGue wrote:
Loving this build ATM, but one trouble i having that i dont with other builds is over building probes. I keep building 80+ haha
Ive also found that this buld helps so much with your multitasking. Props to the OP
I believe that when your 3rd finishes you're saturated on your main and natural (or at least very very close). You can ensure their saturation level real quick and then just rally all nexus to the 3rd and you only have to monitor the probe count there (assuming you lose no probes at your main and nat as the game goes on).
For the blink stalker +2 follow up you get exactly 61 (16*3, 6*2, 1 to proxy pylon) probes and 10 gateways (go up to 6 when you take your 3rd, 4 more when getting ready to move out).
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On July 27 2012 09:20 SpiZe wrote:
After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker.
There are more ways of scouting than seeing what you are looking to see. By scouting the timing of the zerg third base, you can ascertain his gas timing. Yes you should be leaving at about 9 minutes, but you should also have accomplished what you set out to do, expand your economy whilst stalling zerg droning.
After playing this a few times and reviewing the replays I can safely say that, with hitting the timings, protoss comes out at least even with zerg at 10 minutes.
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On July 28 2012 01:38 Raggamuffinoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:20 SpiZe wrote:
After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker. There are more ways of scouting than seeing what you are looking to see. By scouting the timing of the zerg third base, you can ascertain his gas timing. Yes you should be leaving at about 9 minutes, but you should also have accomplished what you set out to do, expand your economy whilst stalling zerg droning. After playing this a few times and reviewing the replays I can safely say that, with hitting the timings, protoss comes out at least even with zerg at 10 minutes.
I don't think you can tell anything about gas by the 3rd base timing.
You can detect some all-ins by queen count but unless someone can prove otherwise gas after lings vs gas @ ~6 minutes is basically indistinguishable.
Not sure if it matters though. You can hold 3hatch into speedlings with simcity and losing a couple of units at his third doesn't really affect you that much.
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On July 28 2012 01:38 Raggamuffinoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:20 SpiZe wrote:
After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker. There are more ways of scouting than seeing what you are looking to see. By scouting the timing of the zerg third base, you can ascertain his gas timing. Yes you should be leaving at about 9 minutes, but you should also have accomplished what you set out to do, expand your economy whilst stalling zerg droning. After playing this a few times and reviewing the replays I can safely say that, with hitting the timings, protoss comes out at least even with zerg at 10 minutes.
Not sure how his 4:10 third base is gonna be influenced by his gas timing which comes at either 5:00 or 6:00. If he gas before his third, it's easily scoutable. If zerg gets a single gas right after his third, speed comes really early.
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You could sacrifice a Zealot to check his natural for a drone count. Usually during a pressure,a player will have his main fully saturated and have less at his natural (where they can be sniped). If it's a bit undersaturated, that's an indication of ling production. Ling production is often an indication of speed, so you should go home and know that you've done your job. The zerg built non-drone stuff, lost about a minute of mining time on 3 drones, lost a drone and 25 extra minerals to build an extractor earlier, and is behind. If you can hold your natural, you should be fine--even if you poorly trade about 3 stalkers away to ~20 speedlings out on the map.
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On July 28 2012 09:04 SpiZe wrote:
Not sure how his 4:10 third base is gonna be influenced by his gas timing which comes at either 5:00 or 6:00. If he gas before his third, it's easily scoutable. If zerg gets a single gas right after his third, speed comes really early.
This attack starts at 5~ minutes with your first zealot, you should see if he cut a third queen and took a gas before he has speed finished. If in doubt just retreat 3 minutes after you saw his early third hatch.
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god I hope this build works. I am REALLY REALLY getting sick and tired of the amount of Masss [unit] builds that zerg does.
I cannot seem to find a way to win vs a zerg opponent unless they majorly screw up.
The largest bane of my play is mass ling or mass roaches, and it is a never ending stream of them, though on 3 base I cannot keep up enough production or income to support a sufficient income to defend. It then comes down a matter of attrition: Zerg units are so cheap and specifically strong, protoss units expensive, and weak vs those T1 and T2 units.
It is to the point that I consider uninstalling the game, zerg is so broken. Nothing in my arsenal of protosss builds works in any way shape or form.
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On July 28 2012 09:57 Grimmyman123 wrote:
god I hope this build works. I am REALLY REALLY getting sick and tired of the amount of Masss [unit] builds that zerg does.
I cannot seem to find a way to win vs a zerg opponent unless they majorly screw up.
The largest bane of my play is mass ling or mass roaches, and it is a never ending stream of them, though on 3 base I cannot keep up enough production or income to support a sufficient income to defend. It then comes down a matter of attrition: Zerg units are so cheap and specifically strong, protoss units expensive, and weak vs those T1 and T2 units..
And this is why pressure builds are awesome. We're supposed to be the aggressor in this match-up, not the Zerg. We're supposed to be across the map on creep, killing drones and forcing non-drone units. I'm fine with playing macro games, but I'm not going to waste my money on needless cannons when my opponent is droning his face off.
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On July 28 2012 09:57 Grimmyman123 wrote:
god I hope this build works. I am REALLY REALLY getting sick and tired of the amount of Masss [unit] builds that zerg does.
I cannot seem to find a way to win vs a zerg opponent unless they majorly screw up.
The largest bane of my play is mass ling or mass roaches, and it is a never ending stream of them, though on 3 base I cannot keep up enough production or income to support a sufficient income to defend. It then comes down a matter of attrition: Zerg units are so cheap and specifically strong, protoss units expensive, and weak vs those T1 and T2 units.
It is to the point that I consider uninstalling the game, zerg is so broken. Nothing in my arsenal of protosss builds works in any way shape or form.
Don't blame the game. Your arsenal is either small or you aren't executing properly. Good forcefields with good sim city will allow u to beat those builds if ur playing well.
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Like the build!
My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks!
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On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote:
Like the build!
My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks!
You simply can't take your third as quickly if your opponent has a ton of speedlings off 2 bases. A 2 base 8-gate +2 attack blink stalker all-in is usually really strong against a 2 base zerg, but if you want to take a third you can try to do it just a little bit later than you would otherwise. The stalker/zealot pressure won't be a good idea there either.
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On August 01 2012 09:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote:
Like the build!
My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks! You simply can't take your third as quickly if your opponent has a ton of speedlings off 2 bases. A 2 base 8-gate +2 attack blink stalker all-in is usually really strong against a 2 base zerg, but if you want to take a third you can try to do it just a little bit later than you would otherwise. The stalker/zealot pressure won't be a good idea there either.
Ok thanks!
Where could I find a 2base +2 blink allin?
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On August 01 2012 09:16 AnonymousEmu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 09:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote:
Like the build!
My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks! You simply can't take your third as quickly if your opponent has a ton of speedlings off 2 bases. A 2 base 8-gate +2 attack blink stalker all-in is usually really strong against a 2 base zerg, but if you want to take a third you can try to do it just a little bit later than you would otherwise. The stalker/zealot pressure won't be a good idea there either. Ok thanks! Where could I find a 2base +2 blink allin?
There should be some around here. I know lately it's more popular to go for about 4 sentries and fake a 3rd nexus, then cancel it and attack with 7 gate blink and +2. In the past I used this:
17 nexus
forge
pylon
gate
cannon
2 gas
+1 attack
2 more gas
twilight
blink
+2 attack, add 7 gates
(cut at 44 probes)
attack around 10 minutes with about 16 stalkers and send 1-2 probes to build proxy pylons.
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Ok sweet thanks  , Im not to crazy about faking an expo just because more than half the time they never scout it in the first place ... lol
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EPT
