EPT[D] PvZ - Jangbi's 1gate pressure into fast 3rd - Page 7
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
When was executing build was feeling some slips in macro, but then I haven't yet played the build for 50 to 100 times, so I really think that it's fine to execute it with 70 EPM. Ofc more amp will benefit more from this pressure. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
I have one big question: Why even get the cannon? Why not just go with Gateway first, get the Forge later to time out with when you want to dump 100 gas into +1 weapons, and skip the cannon entirely? I mean, it's a different opening obviously, but I wonder if the Forge and Cannon are economically a mistake, if you scout the Zerg and see standard Pool/Hatch timing with no gas. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On July 23 2012 20:15 Rimak wrote: This is so good. Used it with my practice partner - diamond zerg (plat myself), worked out really great. Went for 1 gate pressure into 4gate +1 into 3rd into 8 gate blink-immortal. Solid. Jangbi's opening has no chronos on cyber core (they are all on units) so you wont actuly have warpgate ready until you have a lot more than 4 gateways. The entire point of the opening is to take a third from 1 gate, are you sure you are doing something similar (with 3 chrono's on probes, then chain chrono on your 1 gate to make 7 units before warpgate?) | ||
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Raggamuffinoo
United Kingdom117 Posts
It is also an excellent build in a learning sense, having to actively chrono, hit gas timings etc you need some multitasking to micro against lings during all this. Once you get your third going with your 8+ gateways you feel so comfortable to defend and tech or attack with a good economy. This build is also preferable on taldarim altar as, using your first 3 units to knock down the rocks, the timings line up with your third nexus. | ||
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fanvadmeck
Sweden112 Posts
On July 23 2012 20:09 scsequeL wrote: looks like a cool build, also the vod is awesome. Is the stalker harass necessary at the zergs third in order to get your own third up without pressure from the lings ? the harass at the third is the whole point of the build, to hit zerg when he is weak and force lings so you can expand and get ahead in economy. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On July 24 2012 02:23 fanvadmeck wrote: the harass at the third is the whole point of the build, to hit zerg when he is weak and force lings so you can expand and get ahead in economy. Yes, nexus first is already good for rivaling zergs economy in early game, but forcing lings too ive found you can pretty consistently either do notable damage or get 5+ workers ahead | ||
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FFxO
United States11 Posts
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Serotonin1
United States225 Posts
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Sauquim
Mexico17 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On July 24 2012 10:04 Sauquim wrote: I have just recently been seeing more use of naniwa's 1 gate expand into a 2 base 4 gate to attack the third base of the Zerg early on while securing yourself your natural. How does jangbi's build compare to naniwa's? I've been interested in both and having seen the recent game from MC vs seal I believe in the dual proleague, it has made me wonder the pros and cons of both builds. They are very very different openings and it is almost like playing a different matchup in the first ~15 minutes | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
Jangbi FFE-->Pressure Pros: -Looks like a regular FFE and often gives the zerg a false sense of security -Faster Nexus Cons: -Slower pressure timing since it's Nexus-->Forge-->Gateway -Spending money on a Forge and Cannon early on during a pressure build 1Gate 1Gas FE Pros: -Faster pressure because it's gateway first -You don't cut probes -300 minerals Cons: -Slower Nexus -Later wall-off against later pool pressures/dedicated ling busts (might be compensated for by early boosted gateway units) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
This also means that your window to harass is between only 5 and 6 minutes (your units have to be at your natural when lings speed finished, never after or it's really easy to get caught and die). In this window of time, all you can realistically have is one zealot and 2 stalkers. The instant their ling speed finishes, you can't secure a third while only having a single gateway, so the followup that Jangbi does is also out of the question. On the other hand, with ffe vs no gas 3 hatch you can harass between 6 ish mintues (when your first zealot arrives at his third) and 9 when his ling speed can finish (assuming zerg takes gas at 6 like they usually do). In this window of time, you will have 2 zealots and 5 stalkers rallied afaik, which is a much scarier force that can harass for a longer period of time. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 24 2012 17:29 Teoita wrote: Going gate/cyber with a gas is completely different and will prompt a completely different reaction from zerg. The instant they see a 1basing protoss they will get their gas up, which means ling speed can be up as fast as 6/7 minutes depending on when they scout. This also means that your window to harass is between only 5 and 6 minutes (your units have to be at your natural when lings speed finished, never after or it's really easy to get caught and die). In this window of time, all you can realistically have is one zealot and 2 stalkers. The instant their ling speed finishes, you can't secure a third while only having a single gateway, so the followup that Jangbi does is also out of the question. On the other hand, with ffe vs no gas 3 hatch you can harass between 6 ish mintues (when your first zealot arrives at his third) and 9 when his ling speed can finish (assuming zerg takes gas at 6 like they usually do). In this window of time, you will have 2 zealots and 5 stalkers rallied afaik, which is a much scarier force that can harass for a longer period of time. I think it's a bit later than 6 minutes. If they open 15 pool into hatch and scout with overlords only (which is the standard), they will see that it's gateway play and start their gas about then. That means the timing window isn't until the 6 minute mark; it's about the 7 to 7:30 minute mark. I guess if you consider going home worth a minute, you have until ~6 to 6:30 to do damage and then leave. I should probably go do some research on this, because I pay a lot more attention to what I scout when I scout it than I do to the in-game clock during a game. Either way, the goal is to do damage before speed is out. I suppose if you use the FFE that means the zerg invests 300 minerals+drone into a third hatch and gets a gas a bit later, so the timing window is probably similar in length (but just delayed in the case of the FFE). There's also the faster +1 weapons, which is mostly relevant in dealing with zerglings (though obviously always useful). I think with opening gateway first you are inclined to "do damage" in order to even out the economical disparity, but you don't really have to kill stuff to do damage. All you have to do is slow that third base down and indirectly reduce the drone count by forcing earlier gas (one killed drone) and a bunch of lings/some number of spines (more killed drones). But if they open up standard, that's not very hard to do with Stalkers and a Zealot, since they have to be concerned with a followup involving more gateways or some kind of tech. So they could just call your bluff and keep droning behind minimal defense, but if you actually are adding on more production the warpgate timing can just kill them--especially with the potential to just forcefield the ramp twice and kill the natural. I don't know; I'm just glad to see some different styles showing up in the openings for PvZ because the generic FFE shouldn't be the only way to start a game. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On July 24 2012 01:46 Cyro wrote: Jangbi's opening has no chronos on cyber core (they are all on units) so you wont actuly have warpgate ready until you have a lot more than 4 gateways. The entire point of the opening is to take a third from 1 gate, are you sure you are doing something similar (with 3 chrono's on probes, then chain chrono on your 1 gate to make 7 units before warpgate?) I C. Thank you, I should proceed to 3rd into gates then? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20343 Posts
On July 24 2012 18:14 Rimak wrote: I C. Thank you, I should proceed to 3rd into gates then? Doesnt really matter, but if you have warpgate and +1 done and ready for pressure and dont have a bunch of extra money, and didnt cut those 7 units (chrono'd) then something seems wrong, your +1 is delayed and neither warpgate nor upgrade is chrono'd with this opening | ||
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Vaporak
70 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 25 2012 04:00 Vaporak wrote: Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening. Seed has been doing Gate expands on his stream for a couple of months, and he did one in the top 8 against Symbol. I know I've seen at least one other high level korean doing a Gate opener lately, too, but I don't remember who. There might honestly be a revolution happening. I think Naniwa definitely did his opening specifically because he was playing against DRG, but that doesn't automatically make it a bad opening against early pools or other players. DRG is known for 6pooling every once in a while, especially in best of 5s (and super-especially on Entombed Valley; DRG hates that map). You can fight a 6-8 pool with a gateway opener if you know what you're doing, and it often puts you in a better position than the FFE does from that point because you already have a gateway and zealot. It's better if you put the first gate right by your nexus instead of at the ramp, so you can defend with probes more easily (and lose less mining time), but it's still doable at the ramp with good micro. | ||
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