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EZ_blacktears
Germany4 Posts
Because when they hit you offguard and you lose your stalkers, i dont see a way to defend your 3rd against lings and main and 2nd vs the first mutas. 1-0 wont be done if the zerg would play a HARD timing against this build :/ Would really love to see many more replays, because it seems kinda fragile to me, but extremly strong against all the roach players. | ||
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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Gumbi
Ireland463 Posts
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Spec
Taiwan931 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On July 19 2012 04:01 Jaeger wrote: Just went through nani's stream vod and didn't see this at all. Can someone link the vod and time? I saw him doing a 2 base blink all-in with 4 sentries and an observer mixed in. That build isn't great against pure stephano style, really. He doesn't pressure at all early on and hits when zerg should already be maxed out. It's not at all like jangbi's build. edit: I found a game that looks like the same build. He doesn't pressure as much with his first units, just forcing a few lings and pulling back, but that's still pretty sufficient. http://sv.twitch.tv/quanticnani/b/325242324?t=2h28m | ||
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Serotonin1
United States225 Posts
http://drop.sc/223948 - I decided eh, what the hell I'll try doing a gate expo without knowing what the build order even is and then wing it from here. Basic idea is the same. I mean even if you execute poorly like I did with no build order, most Zergs that are on auto pilot in ZvP will get wrecked. Note: I'm uploading these two replays to give people an idea of what it's like. I am terrible at this game, there is no need to tell me this. | ||
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Pobbes
Philippines54 Posts
http://drop.sc/224034 | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:12 Pobbes wrote: so i've found a little problem with this build. what the zerg did was when he saw that i was pressuring with the zealots and stalkers he didn't drone at all and got ling speed and roaches. after wiping the initial stalker / zealots he just attacked my main which had 1 cannon. tried to use sentries but my gates were up a little late. (i might have screwed up my building placement a little, although i don't think it would've mattered much. http://drop.sc/224034 I used to do this as zerg. It's pretty risky, as a protoss could be going for a 2 base all-in and not only defend, but counterattack and win easily. I'm not sure what the best way to scout this would be, but possibly just try to hold watch towers or hide a probe after your harass to follow up with scouting. I don't know if it would be viable to mix a robo in this build just for an observer, but that could also help out with the blink attack later anyway. Thanks for posting a high level replay. Ryze is really good.  | ||
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mewo
United States221 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:12 Pobbes wrote: so i've found a little problem with this build. what the zerg did was when he saw that i was pressuring with the zealots and stalkers he didn't drone at all and got ling speed and roaches. after wiping the initial stalker / zealots he just attacked my main which had 1 cannon. tried to use sentries but my gates were up a little late. (i might have screwed up my building placement a little, although i don't think it would've mattered much. http://drop.sc/224034 I think pylon blocking his natural slows down your gateway way too much. You're also on a 4 player map which means you had to double scout and forge first which slows everything down once again. You have to go cannon before gate, again slowing things down. For reference  JangBi's gate starts at 3:10 yours starts at 3:38.Your core and zealot are late (gate finishes @ 4:43 core starts @ 4:55, zealot starts @ 5:02). This all adds. Your first stalker finishes at 6:24 compare that to JangBi's at 5:46.You start your 2nd gas on time but never mine from it. Your 3rd gas was queued to start on time but you canceled the order (I assume accidentally) so you were way behind on gas. You got spawned in dumb positions on entombed which means counter attacking is way stronger than it is normally. His counter attack hits @ 9:00. I think with really good execution you could've had additional gates up and held that although the rocks would make it hard if he continued attacking and bounced back and forth between the natural and the 3rd). I think the map and especially those spawning positions make it not really a great strategy there. His rally path naturally flanks your units in his 3rd and makes it more difficult to micro/escape/reinforce. If you're going to do it there I think you need to build your cannon in range of the rocks. A cannon can take those rocks down by 7 minutes. Maybe something like ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GgihM.jpg) | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:57 Jaeger wrote: I think pylon blocking his natural slows down your gateway way too much. You're also on a 4 player map which means you had to double scout and forge first which slows everything down once again. You have to go cannon before gate, again slowing things down. For reference JangBi's gate starts at 3:10 yours starts at 3:38.Your core and zealot are late (gate finishes @ 4:43 core starts @ 4:55, zealot starts @ 5:02). This all adds. Your first stalker finishes at 6:24 compare that to JangBi's at 5:46.You start your 2nd gas on time but never mine from it. Your 3rd gas was queued to start on time but you canceled the order (I assume accidentally) so you were way behind on gas. You got spawned in dumb positions on entombed which means counter attacking is way stronger than it is normally. His counter attack hits @ 9:00. I think with really good execution you could've had additional gates up and held that although the rocks would make it hard if he continued attacking and bounced back and forth between the natural and the 3rd). I think the map and especially those spawning positions make it not really a great strategy there. His rally path naturally flanks your units in his 3rd and makes it more difficult to micro/escape/reinforce. If you're going to do it there I think you need to build your cannon in range of the rocks. A cannon can take those rocks down by 7 minutes. Maybe something like On a 4 player map, there's just no way that you can use jangbi's build without risking to die to silly early pools. Double scout is almost mandatory (unless playing on GSL version of maps) and that really pushes all timings behind quite a bit. I still feel this build is best played out on cloud kingdom using a gas steal on zerg's main. I usually do it before I leave the main from zerglings then stall around to check 3rd and because I stole the gas, I cut 1 zealot (which also saves me 1 chronoboost) Edit: On a side note, I also find that a gas steal on standard maps also helps, if my probe skips out on scouting the 3rd and sneaks into the main without overlords/zerglings catching me before reaching the natural, I can always check the other gas. The initial zealot is then sent to the 3rd. | ||
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Krallman
Sweden713 Posts
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco) I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries? | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On July 19 2012 17:00 Kornholi0 wrote: I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough. I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco) I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries? You are assuming the stalker pressure early game does nothing and that the protoss player goes purely into a 3 base blink all-in every single time. Protoss can easily tech after securing the third base with blink stalkers. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20296 Posts
I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough. No. A max before 11:00 is extremely rare (earliest i have met at low masters was almost 12 minutes) and with any kind of pressure like this they will have a lot of trouble doing what they want. Zerg cannot get a critical mass of speed roaches, or a handful of infestors with supporting army out fast enough to trade well and come out ahead against 3 base blink aggression very easily at all, the few games i have seen end with zerg unable to get supply up enough to either deny the third in good economic standings or hold an all in comfortably, it seems to be extremely dangerous, im gonna try some on ladder soonish | ||
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Flyingdutchman
Netherlands858 Posts
On July 19 2012 17:00 Kornholi0 wrote: I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough. I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco) I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries? You start pressure a lot earlier, at a time where the zerg still needs to drone in order to hit the 11:00 max timing. Theoretical max timings aren't relevant if you do this build properly. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On July 19 2012 17:54 Cyro wrote: No. A max before 11:00 is extremely rare (earliest i have met at low masters was almost 12 minutes) and with any kind of pressure like this they will have a lot of trouble doing what they want. Zerg cannot get a critical mass of speed roaches, or a handful of infestors with supporting army out fast enough to trade well and come out ahead against 3 base blink aggression very easily at all, the few games i have seen end with zerg unable to get supply up enough to either deny the third in good economic standings or hold an all in comfortably, it seems to be extremely dangerous, im gonna try some on ladder soonish I can max any game at 10:30 with no pressure. It's just very different when you have a 2 zealot 1 stalker type of early pressure. | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
Also, not being used to multitasking this heavily early in the game combined with the fact that I don't know the build yet makes it so I have a lot of trouble getting the build right Sometimes I forget a gas, sometimes I forget my third base, then I can't add gateways because I don't have pylon coverage, then you realize you have forgotten your +1 zzzzzz I feel like during your poke, you should try to target queens down as killing them will considerably slows a stephano style roach build if he tries it. He will have to rebuild queen, he wasn't able to drone hard, maybe even lost drones. I usually achieve to keep the zerg on a similar drone (not to mine to himself, if he has 35 drones at the start, maybe he will have 38 drones at the end, exemple) count from like 6:00 to 8:00 depending on how well I control my stuff. This makes it really hard, if not impossible, to hit a full strength 200 pop roach attack in a reasonable timing. If you do what you consider enough damage, I would proceed with the 11min stalker push, if you don't do enough damage, I would suggest a build a little bit more defensive and hitting the usual pre-broodlord timing. Final thoughts : Sick build @ my opinion. P.S : I have replays if anyone wants them, as I said, I don't really do the build well, and sometimes I forget some stuff, but the general feel is there. | ||
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