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On July 17 2012 11:53 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote:
Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong. Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look.
Yeah, that's what I suggested above. The poke and 3rd nexus come much sooner, and you aren't getting early cannons or +1 anyway, so the forge is useless. It feels quite cool to be on equal footing economically in the early game. You do need to know some clean sim city and have good scouting to hold 1 gate fe on some maps, of course.
Basic Build I've been using:
9 pylon
10 probe [chrono]
12 probe [chrono]
13 gateway
13 scout
15 pylon
15 probe [chrono]
18 nexus
19 zealot
21 gas
23 cybernetics core
23 zealot
25 pylon
26 forge
27 stalker
30 warpgate
30 stalker
36 nexus
36 stalker
38 2nd gas
40 pylon
42 stalker
46 gateway [3]
46 stalker
50 3rd and 4th gas
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On July 17 2012 13:25 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 11:53 DanceSC wrote:On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote:
Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong. Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look. Yeah, that's what I suggested above. The poke and 3rd nexus come much sooner, and you aren't getting early cannons or +1 anyway, so the forge is useless. It feels quite cool to be on equal footing economically in the early game. You do need to know some clean sim city and have good scouting to hold 1 gate fe on some maps, of course. Basic Build I've been using: 9 pylon 10 probe [chrono] 12 probe [chrono] 13 gateway 13 scout 15 pylon 15 probe [chrono] 18 nexus 19 zealot 21 gas 23 cybernetics core 23 zealot 25 pylon 26 forge 27 stalker 30 warpgate 30 stalker 36 nexus 36 stalker 38 2nd gas 40 pylon 42 stalker 46 gateway [3] 46 stalker 50 3rd and 4th gas
Do you have a replay with this build? I'd like to see your sim city, as not having a cannon seems pretty risky. I also like opening up with a standard FFE because A) The zerg will blindly follow his standard timings and B) it's harder for a Zerg to know what you're doing to do after an FFE.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On July 16 2012 16:44 OrbitalPlane wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:40 Bahamuth wrote:On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote:
i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend.
The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust?
The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes?
i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases. Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious. I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main.
Did you watch the game?
The whole thing feels amazingly natural, even though 3 hatch and the timings of such can be scouted without denial, the first zealot was rallied to the thirds creep and it really is not too hard to tell if an all-in is coming or not. If there is any doubt, just throw up a bunch of gates instead of nexus
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looks awesome nice build, though could you specify when to get the extra gates? thanks
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I'm glad I read this thread. One of the first SC2 games that I really enjoyed watching. It's nice to know the game has room to grow.
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I'd really like for some of the high masters/blue Protoss players here to check this build out thoroughly and see if it could be a good standard PvZ build. At first blush it seems really good but we've only really seen one instance of it so we don't know how Jangbi intended to respond to different scouting information.
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Happened upon this thread and I squealed for joy, Jangbi is one of my favorite Protoss players ever, and I was more than happy to try out this build. Just finished a game on ladder, and this build is pretty awesome. Pressured the Zerg's quick third with 2 zealots and 5 stalkers, made him overproduce a shit ton of slowlings while taking my third and teching up to blink and +2. He got his roach warren fairly late so he couldn't pressure my third with just slow lings (he was probably scared of a 2 base timing). In the end, I had a total of 12 gates and just went pure +2 blink stalker, and I finished him off between the 13 and 14 minute mark, being careful and precise as possible with my blink micro.
Pretty awesome feeling 
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I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas.
If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
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On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas.
If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural.
It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here.
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what maps do you think this build works best on and is there a way to see the vod of naniwa doing the gate-nexus build.
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tried this build 1st time in a custom now..
it worked rly rly good!
even a Z who goes save 3 hatch with spine etc will have trouble dealing with it since speed wount be up soon
so no gas scout -> easy execution
wouldnt use this against early gas Z with speed
btw ophidian - just wanted to tell u u doin a great job - love your cast and even better - that you are linkin VODs for the build keep it up :D
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On July 18 2012 01:19 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas.
If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games. Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural. It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here.
Most games I don't straight up lose but I put myself into awkward positions.
Well the scenarios so far I've played into unusual speedling timings the following occurs:
Protoss definitely lose his stalkers (3-4 depending how many were roaming on the map)
With a good simcity at 3rd Protoss can hold the nexus
However, the zerg player, if he wishes, can choose to trade his speedlings for majority of the protosses probe at 3rd.
The zerg regains map control
Protoss in the dark, knows zerg have gas but doesn't know how much gas, HAVE to prepare for a possible all in regardless whether the zerg droned behind the speedlings or not
Now the protoss is behind with fewer gas because 3nd gas was after 3rd nexus meaning less sentries
Protoss player in general, cannot move out of the map to be aggressive without 3-4 sentries unless the player wants to risk losing his entire army
Meanwhile zerg has the option to get 4th and drone up even heavier
Basically instead of doing this build all the time, I'd rather know a very VERY specific way to transition into jangbi's build through knowing gas timing of zerg. If protoss one way or another can get the gas timing of zerg, then this becomes an incredibly powerful build.
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On July 17 2012 11:53 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote:
Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong. Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look.
It won't work the same from gate-nexus vs a competent zerg.
Why? Beacase the proper answer for Z vs that oppening is to get a faster ling speed and speedlings will crush any light pressure.
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On July 18 2012 03:10 eScaper-tsunami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 01:19 Jaeger wrote:On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas.
If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games. Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural. It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here. Most games I don't straight up lose but I put myself into awkward positions. Well the scenarios so far I've played into unusual speedling timings the following occurs: Protoss definitely lose his stalkers (3-4 depending how many were roaming on the map) With a good simcity at 3rd Protoss can hold the nexus However, the zerg player, if he wishes, can choose to trade his speedlings for majority of the protosses probe at 3rd. The zerg regains map control Protoss in the dark, knows zerg have gas but doesn't know how much gas, HAVE to prepare for a possible all in regardless whether the zerg droned behind the speedlings or not Now the protoss is behind with fewer gas because 3nd gas was after 3rd nexus meaning less sentries Protoss player in general, cannot move out of the map to be aggressive without 3-4 sentries unless the player wants to risk losing his entire army Meanwhile zerg has the option to get 4th and drone up even heavier Basically instead of doing this build all the time, I'd rather know a very VERY specific way to transition into jangbi's build through knowing gas timing of zerg. If protoss one way or another can get the gas timing of zerg, then this becomes an incredibly powerful build.
Maybe try sacrificing a scouting zealot. It will make the pressure less effective, but maybe you can time it as your other zealot/stalker move to the 3rd and force him to multitask a bit or lose drones.
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On July 18 2012 07:19 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 03:10 eScaper-tsunami wrote:On July 18 2012 01:19 Jaeger wrote:On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote:
I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas.
If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games. Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural. It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here. Most games I don't straight up lose but I put myself into awkward positions. Well the scenarios so far I've played into unusual speedling timings the following occurs: Protoss definitely lose his stalkers (3-4 depending how many were roaming on the map) With a good simcity at 3rd Protoss can hold the nexus However, the zerg player, if he wishes, can choose to trade his speedlings for majority of the protosses probe at 3rd. The zerg regains map control Protoss in the dark, knows zerg have gas but doesn't know how much gas, HAVE to prepare for a possible all in regardless whether the zerg droned behind the speedlings or not Now the protoss is behind with fewer gas because 3nd gas was after 3rd nexus meaning less sentries Protoss player in general, cannot move out of the map to be aggressive without 3-4 sentries unless the player wants to risk losing his entire army Meanwhile zerg has the option to get 4th and drone up even heavier Basically instead of doing this build all the time, I'd rather know a very VERY specific way to transition into jangbi's build through knowing gas timing of zerg. If protoss one way or another can get the gas timing of zerg, then this becomes an incredibly powerful build. Maybe try sacrificing a scouting zealot. It will make the pressure less effective, but maybe you can time it as your other zealot/stalker move to the 3rd and force him to multitask a bit or lose drones.
If you sacrifice the early zealot to walk into the main... you may or may not see the gas (takes 4-6 lings to kill a zealot) :/ You have to remember that the watch towers are controlled... and by the time first zealot is out... there's a queen at natural and at main... I tried it already and it's really depends on how bad the opponent is...
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I'm still hoping we'll see more of this build and/or some good players on here can explore it further. I just tried it out for the first time and loved it but I'm only diamond so I can't really tell if it's solid enough.
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How does this build work against Ling/Muta?, especially early mutas and a rather early speed timing (-> Zergs will SEE the mass chrono on your gateway till your stalker pops -> and no +1 etc).
I dont see a way to defend 3 Bases without many units, blink and without +1 attack ready vs ling/Muta O_ô
-> You wont be able to really scout gases if he takes to after he denied your scouting probe.
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
On July 18 2012 20:23 EZ_blacktears wrote:
How does this build work against Ling/Muta?, especially early mutas and a rather early speed timing (-> Zergs will SEE the mass chrono on your gateway till your stalker pops -> and no +1 etc).
I dont see a way to defend 3 Bases without many units, blink and without +1 attack ready vs ling/Muta O_ô
-> You wont be able to really scout gases if he takes to after he denied your scouting probe.
He will have to cut a bunch of drones early to hold the pressure, he cant just throw up 6 extractors and dump 18 drones into them like zerg would when going muta vs robo third, with blink transition this is a pretty hard counter to it, Mutas seem to be minutes away when the extra gates are done and a blink push from 24 mineral patches instead of 16 hitting before zerg can get a critical mass of speed roaches or a handful of infestors with an army to back them up is almost impossible to trade effectively against
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saw it on Naniwa's stream today, seems really strong, even tho he lost there
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Does anyone have a replay of this, even if it's not executed properly ? Anything really. I would like to see how this plays out in some other scenarios than what happened in the Jangbang game. Thanks
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EPT
