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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On July 16 2012 16:40 Bahamuth wrote: Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious. I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 16 2012 16:44 OrbitalPlane wrote: I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main. Roach ling allin, see no third and/or extra lings. Ling bane allin, seeing more than 4 lings out on the map when you start poking. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On July 16 2012 16:44 OrbitalPlane wrote: I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main. Zenio's bust takes gas before the queen is out. | ||
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Fus
Sweden1112 Posts
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
What about timing attacks at 8-9min from 3 base with decent drone saturation? If i saw it correctly this guy builds his 2nd gate after 8 minutes... Didn't Mc play this poke on shakuras against Stephano at the NASL semi finals? Stephano didn't handle it as poorly as the guy in the video and just crushed MC's natural and 3rd. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
EDIT: Did this on my Toss account on Ohana and it worked spectacularly well. There is definitely a danger timing, but whether or not Zerg can exploit it effectively I'm not sure. So far all the zergs I've played have tried to counter and done some damage, but not been able to hold off my blink-colossus follow-up. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On July 16 2012 17:29 OrbitalPlane wrote: i dont think you can defend a baneling bust without sentrys. If you see that there are no workers at the 3rd its already too late imho. But that's not the point here anways.I know how to scout these early all ins but i don't think they are the main problem. I was not talking about the 1-2 base roach all ins etc. What about timing attacks at 8-9min from 3 base with decent drone saturation? If i saw it correctly this guy builds his 2nd gate after 8 minutes... Didn't Mc play this poke on shakuras against Stephano at the NASL semi finals? Stephano didn't handle it as poorly as the guy in the video and just crushed MC's natural and 3rd. Yeah I'm pretty sure you can't hold the third against banelings. On most maps these days though you should be able to do a tight wall and hold the natural. I think the ideal build should go up to 4 gates a bit sooner than the video. An 8 minute push would be quite weak in most cases, as he can't actually be saturated on 3 bases and be building roaches by that point. | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On July 16 2012 17:29 OrbitalPlane wrote: i dont think you can defend a baneling bust without sentrys. If you see that there are no workers at the 3rd its already too late imho. But that's not the point here anways.I know how to scout these early all ins but i don't think they are the main problem. I was not talking about the 1-2 base roach all ins etc. What about timing attacks at 8-9min from 3 base with decent drone saturation? If i saw it correctly this guy builds his 2nd gate after 8 minutes... Didn't Mc play this poke on shakuras against Stephano at the NASL semi finals? Stephano didn't handle it as poorly as the guy in the video and just crushed MC's natural and 3rd. You can hold a baneling bust without sentries on some maps with good simcity. Or you can just make a sentry. Why would it be too late? Zenio's bust hits at ~7:00-7:20. Check his 3rd base with your first zealot (~5:40) or first 2 zealots (~6:00) or 2 zealots and first stalker (~6:10). If you don't see drones or a queen get suspicious. It's possible they built the queen from the 3rd hatch which would get it out ~6:30. If you can force them to take their 3rd base first with good probe micro blocking that natural hatchery then there should definitely be a queen there when you poke. If they have a queen there you know it's not the Zenio bust. If his 3rd isn't done or when your first stalker arrives also get suspicious. A 4:00 3rd hatch is standard these days (or ~4:10 if they start 2nd queen before taking it) which finishes at 5:40. If they're taking a 5:00 3rd hatch something is a bit weird. If you want to play super safe and you don't see proof that it's not an all-in nothing wrong with pulling back taking your other gasses making a sentry and playing a more standard robo sentry expand style. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On July 16 2012 15:58 Jaeger wrote: Thanks. How do you know he got it from the coach? Is it in an interview? If so did he say anything else about the build? p.s. Keep up the good casting work, enjoyed skt stx last night. From here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346334 "JangBi: I wanted to say more in the tv interview but they cut away really fast. Today's strategy was recommended by Woo assistant coach. It felt like the opponent was completely overpowered by me, such a perfect strategy wasn't given enough time to be talked about was regretful." | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On July 16 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote: The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base). I have an HQ vod of a cast I did for this game btw. You can read the supply better etc - http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian/b/323962026?t=1h36m Jangbi is so good at blink :D OH, thx a lot for the HQ. And yeah, Jangbi blink is just flawless! Edit: Just watched the HQversion, a pleasure, and btw oph, i LOVE your chill-Tylerlike cast style, keep that up!! | ||
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eScaper-tsunami
Canada313 Posts
Otherwise, this is a coinflip build. If Protoss doesn't get any scouting information past the 5 minute mark. At 5 minute a protoss will only see, natural hatch completed, 3rd hatch making and if you tried to scout main, your scouting probe will only die to either the queen at natural or at main without seeing the gases. And if the zerg managed to start gas at around 5 minutes mark (which is early because they are preparing for a bust off 3 hatch low drone or simply just playing safe getting 100 gas then pulling drone off gas) then the build isn't viable and an alternative transition to ffe is preferred. Now, I'm not saying you always stick to this build or it isn't viable, but scouting is key between the 5-6 minute mark. If you manage to KNOW that zerg hasn't even started gas as late as 6 minute mark, then you know your stalkers are free to roam for at least 2.5 minutes (30 seconds for extractor, 1 minute for 100 gas, 2 minute for speed upgrade - 2*walking distance) and control the watch towers and apply pressure which becomes REALLY rewarding if you take a 3rd and cause the zerg to cut drones unnecessarily. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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jackalope1234
122 Posts
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On July 17 2012 04:33 ODKStevez wrote: So 5 stalkers comes out of a single gateway? Just constant production from a single gateway? Yes, constant chrono'd production off a single gateway. | ||
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Borkbokbork
United States123 Posts
I think fast thirds are indeed the answer. Either a quick third or no third IMO. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
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Eifer
United States138 Posts
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Serotonin1
United States225 Posts
Each game I transitioned into +2 blink, pressured with sentries/stalkers and either sniped the fourth of used positioning to get into the main with a ton of blink stalkers/force fields. Even with garbage micro and the loss of my entire army multiple times, I did enough damage to make it more than worth it. Plus, the pressure hits at a timing before hive and delays their tech by a TON by forcing them to make way more spines/roaches than they want to. I can upload a replay if anyone wants, though its not very high level and its very very rough. | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote: Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong. Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look. | ||
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