JangBi showed a nice build recently in proleague against Sacsri. [vod]
Rough skeleton:
9 pylon -> scout (chrono probes x3)
17 nexus
17 forge
17 gateway
17 pylon
18 cannon @ 100% forge (if necessary hold position probe to block lings until cannon is up)
19 assimilator
core @ 100% gateway
zealot x2 (chrono gateway constantly)
warpgate @ 100% core
stalker x5 (chrono gateway constantly)
2nd assimilator after starting 2nd stalker
3rd assimilator after starting 3rd stalker
nexus
+1 attack (after starting nexus and 4th stalker)
Basically if zerg goes for a no/late gas fast 3hatch play you pressure his 3rd base with units from one gateway while building probes and taking a quick 3rd off of only a forge and one gateway.
Add a bunch of gates to be safe against a counter attack. Then transition into your tech path of choice.
In this game jangbi goes up to +2 blink and adds even more gates after saturating 3 base minerals and 4gas and kills with pure blink stalkers at ~11 minutes.
Obviously if you scout an early pool or an early gas you have to deviate and change your build.
Wait, so if i understand correctly you build 2 zealots and 5 stalkers off of a single gateway? Seems cool because you have excess minerals and just enough gas to get your third and potentially deny Z's third but, can you give me an idea when does the timing hit?
On July 15 2012 03:07 Silencioseu wrote: Wait, so if i understand correctly you build 2 zealots and 5 stalkers off of a single gateway? Seems cool because you have excess minerals and just enough gas to get your third and potentially deny Z's third but, can you give me an idea when does the timing hit?
No, he is referring to how many chronos you use on the gateway I think. I use the exact same build myself lol. Personally I chrono out 1 zealot and 3 stalkers to deny scouting and feign pressure. The problem is that you won't have excess minerals, though. Because once that nexus goes down (all 400 +100 for pylon), you need to add like 5-6 gates, just so you don't die to any timing the zerg throws at you. So you have to be very calculated with your early game spending.
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
You can either attack immediately or wait for your first stalker. If you attack immediately just be sure to retain your zealots until at least your first stalker arrives. Then you just rally stalkers across to constantly reinforce and just use good micro against slow lings, queens and/or slow roaches
Remember 2 zealot hits + 1 stalker hit kills a ling so you can think of your first stalker as a stand in for +1 attack with your 2 zealots against his initial lings.
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
I've been doing this build quite a lot. I'm in diamond and managed to hit the timings pretty good - around 25 +2 blink stalker attack at 11:30. Whenever I do the really quick third after the 2 zealot 1 stalker pressure, it seems like it can't really be punished. A cannon behind gateways isn't going to die to the slow ling reaction.
The blink timing has been pretty hit and miss for me. You have to hit your timings really well which I guess is hard for me to do at diamond. Anything past 12 mins and the attack just doesn't work. It seems like a pretty all in build as well despite the third base. If your 11 min blink stalker attack fails then you're really far behind, you have like no tech.
The pressure works good for me in diamond as well, they always over react. It's a great fast third build.
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
If you can hold the counter attack (which so far I've been able to every time) why wouldn't you want to force attacking units? As for him being able to trade more cost efficiently I don't think that's true. It's going to be potentially speedlings and slow roaches at this counter attack timing. Good simcity and micro along with a cannon or 2 lets you trade very very efficiently.
This 3rd is ridiculously early (~7 minutes). Zerg really doesn't get very cost efficient until roach speed which won't be ready for a counter attack with any units you're going to force at this timing.
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
If you can hold the counter attack (which so far I've been able to every time) why wouldn't you want to force attacking units? As for him being able to trade more cost efficiently I don't think that's true. It's going to be potentially speedlings and slow roaches at this counter attack timing. Good simcity and micro along with a cannon or 2 lets you trade very very efficiently.
This 3rd is ridiculously early (~7 minutes). Zerg really doesn't get very cost efficient until roach speed which won't be ready for a counter attack with any units you're going to force at this timing.
I've been able to hold against mid-tier zergs as well. However, once you move into higher level play, you simply can't hold. Even with cannons and good micro. The reason is that Zerg simply saturates and produces faster than protoss, especially early on. Once he hits 60 + drones, he can just send waves and waves of roaches at you, which you won't be able to hold constantly, as you are trying to establish your own tech, and you are still saturating.
On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote: I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
If you can hold the counter attack (which so far I've been able to every time) why wouldn't you want to force attacking units? As for him being able to trade more cost efficiently I don't think that's true. It's going to be potentially speedlings and slow roaches at this counter attack timing. Good simcity and micro along with a cannon or 2 lets you trade very very efficiently.
This 3rd is ridiculously early (~7 minutes). Zerg really doesn't get very cost efficient until roach speed which won't be ready for a counter attack with any units you're going to force at this timing.
I've been able to hold against mid-tier zergs as well. However, once you move into higher level play, you simply can't hold. Even with cannons and good micro. The reason is that Zerg simply saturates and produces faster than protoss, especially early on. Once he hits 60 + drones, he can just send waves and waves of roaches at you, which you won't be able to hold constantly, as you are trying to establish your own tech, and you are still saturating.
60+ drones into waves and waves of speed roaches comes after 11 minutes in a standard passive game. It's going to be even later or weaker after zerg has to produce units early on to hold off your pressure.
If you have replays where you play this build well and lose to roach waves feel free to post them but it doesn't seem like it can be any harder than holding an 8 minute 3rd with gateway tech in a standard passive game.
On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote: I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote: I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
Odd if i scout after pylon on 2 player maps i can get there before putting a 13 forge down, but i agree on the 4 player map risk, but in tournaments, how many 4 player maps are their?
On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote: I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
The game this build was taken from was on Cloud Kingdom, so obviously the specific build order is tailored to a 2 player map. Any PvZ build order assumes that you know the ins and outs of opening with FFE. Basic stuff like that is covered in other places which are linked to in the "SC2 Strategy Forum Guidelines: Read First" thread. It's completely unreasonable to expect the OP to cover every FFE scenario when people should already have read up on them beforehand.
I like it, this is similar to what I've been doing with my 1 gate fe PvZ, except you can pressure sooner with zealots and faster warpgate. My current build gets a 5:30 nexus, right after the first 2 zealots and stalker chase the scouting lings and overlord away. Need to explore transitions more fully, I quite like the blink play shown here.
This also relies on the current metagame -- if zergs start getting earlier roach warrens reactively, it could just die outright.
After playing this some more the most annoying thing is if zerg puts one ling at the 3rd. Delays the nexus and/or one of your reinforcing stalkers and forces you to split your attention from the front where you're undoubtedly microing hard.
I tried this today and did it fairly poorly against a buddy of mine that is a diamond zerg (my Toss is probably high diamond, I ladder as random and most of my losses are as Toss) and it smashed him. I tried it again on ladder vs a mid-masters Zerg and with a much cleaner execution it worked gangbusters. Zerg counter-attacked after I did a small amount of damage (killed a handful of lings, forced three spines, killed a queen, disrupted mining at his third), but I had 2 canons and a gateway wall up at my third and enough units to keep him at bay. I added a Robo and Colossus den as soon as I had the cash, whilst also going for blink. I pushed out near maxed and rolled him before he got broodlords. He went for light-medium roach aggression which didn't do too much, I lost some zealots was about all.
It's good to finally see Protoss players (or at least just Jangbi) do something REALLY cool without centering everything around Warp Gate tech, and off of a single gateway! But it's heavily reliant on Zergs being as greedy as they've been the past several months. If they'd just get early Ling Speed, they could not only stop the pressure, but more or less deny your third base until you have a decent army. It'd be nice if Protoss players throw in early non-warp pressure like this to force Zerg players to be a little less greedy and maybe force them to at least get an earlier Ling Speed. Hell, it'd be REALLY cool if Protoss players started developing a lot of cool little pressure openers that didn't rely on Warp Gate tech.
On July 15 2012 11:59 quillian wrote: I like it, this is similar to what I've been doing with my 1 gate fe PvZ, except you can pressure sooner with zealots and faster warpgate. My current build gets a 5:30 nexus, right after the first 2 zealots and stalker chase the scouting lings and overlord away. Need to explore transitions more fully, I quite like the blink play shown here.
This also relies on the current metagame -- if zergs start getting earlier roach warrens reactively, it could just die outright.
Unless that's a 5:30 3rd Nexus, that's a REALLY slow Nexus by today's standards.
On July 15 2012 14:39 RyLai wrote: It's good to finally see Protoss players (or at least just Jangbi) do something REALLY cool without centering everything around Warp Gate tech, and off of a single gateway! But it's heavily reliant on Zergs being as greedy as they've been the past several months. If they'd just get early Ling Speed, they could not only stop the pressure, but more or less deny your third base until you have a decent army. It'd be nice if Protoss players throw in early non-warp pressure like this to force Zerg players to be a little less greedy and maybe force them to at least get an earlier Ling Speed. Hell, it'd be REALLY cool if Protoss players started developing a lot of cool little pressure openers that didn't rely on Warp Gate tech.
Yep but as long as you scout his gas just before lings pop (and he hasn't taken it yet) you know you'll have at least 3 minutes before he has ling speed.
What a cool build. So happy kespa players are around. Between this and the way nony has been playing I feel like the matchup is really opening up for me. Also I think it is 3:10 after the gas starts that they can have speed.
On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote: I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
Similarly, early pools aren't as strong on small maps, and you can still double probe scout on 4 player maps, or just take the gamble that 4 player maps are.
It's not like the build just falls apart if you can't go nexus first. You could just do the build with a forge first, or just do it on 2 player maps...
On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote: I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer.
I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus...
On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
Similarly, early pools aren't as strong on small maps, and you can still double probe scout on 4 player maps, or just take the gamble that 4 player maps are.
It's not like the build just falls apart if you can't go nexus first. You could just do the build with a forge first, or just do it on 2 player maps...
I'm not sure how much the 2 zealots rely on timing but it might be that it doesn't time out well enough with forge first. If any mid master and above zerg are around I'd be happy to help test it.
Those Kespa scrubs coming up with good sc2 builds? Awesome! Especially to see this stuff when he's, you know, preparing for the last OSL final and all. No big deal.
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine.
On July 15 2012 11:59 quillian wrote: I like it, this is similar to what I've been doing with my 1 gate fe PvZ, except you can pressure sooner with zealots and faster warpgate. My current build gets a 5:30 nexus, right after the first 2 zealots and stalker chase the scouting lings and overlord away. Need to explore transitions more fully, I quite like the blink play shown here.
This also relies on the current metagame -- if zergs start getting earlier roach warrens reactively, it could just die outright.
Unless that's a 5:30 3rd Nexus, that's a REALLY slow Nexus by today's standards.
...of course that's the third. Build is gate, nexus, zealot, gas, cyber, zealot, stalker, forge, nexus
You do the same thing as the video, everything is just 30 seconds sooner, except the cannon which you delay till your poke
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine.
Exactly, you only expand once you scout his gasless third, so the only thing he will have to attack with is slow lings. You can have a good sized force and cannons at the third by the normal time roaches hit. That said, zergs will probably start to find earlier roach timings that shut down the poke, but allow for less droning
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine.
Exactly, you only expand once you scout his gasless third, so the only thing he will have to attack with is slow lings. You can have a good sized force and cannons at the third by the normal time roaches hit. That said, zergs will probably start to find earlier roach timings that shut down the poke, but allow for less droning
Even if they get earlier roaches it won't really shut down the poke. Stalkers can still micro just fine against slow roaches.
On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote: You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd. When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally.
One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine.
Exactly, you only expand once you scout his gasless third, so the only thing he will have to attack with is slow lings. You can have a good sized force and cannons at the third by the normal time roaches hit. That said, zergs will probably start to find earlier roach timings that shut down the poke, but allow for less droning
Even if they get earlier roaches it won't really shut down the poke. Stalkers can still micro just fine against slow roaches.
Yeah. The only early game problem I've had is vs banelings on maps with a more open Nat/ third. Since you don't have early sentries it can be tough to stop.
On July 16 2012 03:25 covetousrat wrote: Wow jangbi looks really good in sc2 already.
His blink micro was mind numbingly quick. Most people do it in slices, he was doing individual stalkers SO fast.
EDIT: to contribute something other than the above:
I'm not sure how much the 2 zealots rely on timing but it might be that it doesn't time out well enough with forge first. If any mid master and above zerg are around I'd be happy to help test it.
i've been trying to learn this against the AI (i have a terrible track record of absolutely botching builds unless i practise them like 25 times) and i've been doing my standard ladder FFE, where i go 13 forge, 17 cannon, 17 nexus, 17 gate, 18 pylon, 18 gas.
DISCLAIMER: I'm bad. i'm in plat.
So to compare to a replay of myself doing it (i think i had the execution pretty spot on with this one) at 5:50 Jangbi has 28 probes, 2 zealots, 1 stalker and 1 stalker in production. I have 27 probes, 2 zealots, and a stalker 15 seconds away. I do notice however that i'm floating a chronoboost that jangbi may have used on his zealots which may bring my timing closer to his.
This seems... weird? why do i have only 1 less probe than a nexus first? i do have 100 less minerals... maybe that's the discrepancy, or perhaps 2 probes are about to pop for jangbi.
Anyways, with my super conservative FFE it seems to delay the timing by 15 seconds. but like i said this could be an extra chronoboost that i didn't use. hard to tell from a vod
The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base).
On July 16 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote: The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base).
i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend. The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust? The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes? i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend. The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust? The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes? i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious.
On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend. The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust? The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes? i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious.
I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main.
On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend. The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust? The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes? i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious.
I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main.
Roach ling allin, see no third and/or extra lings. Ling bane allin, seeing more than 4 lings out on the map when you start poking.
On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend. The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust? The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes? i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious.
I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main.
This build seems really cool, imagine if you can keep all your units alive, imageine how many slow lings you can kill! I think this can work very well, i'll try it out!
i dont think you can defend a baneling bust without sentrys. If you see that there are no workers at the 3rd its already too late imho. But that's not the point here anways.I know how to scout these early all ins but i don't think they are the main problem. I was not talking about the 1-2 base roach all ins etc.
What about timing attacks at 8-9min from 3 base with decent drone saturation? If i saw it correctly this guy builds his 2nd gate after 8 minutes...
Didn't Mc play this poke on shakuras against Stephano at the NASL semi finals? Stephano didn't handle it as poorly as the guy in the video and just crushed MC's natural and 3rd.
Don't remember exactly how MC opened up, but he did do some early pressure (and like zero damage) into a fast third, the counter attack from Stephano only worked as well as it did because it's really hard to defend a fast third on Shakuras. Especially vs somebody like Stephano who is excellent as attacking multiple places at once and steamrolling over your weak spot.
EDIT: Did this on my Toss account on Ohana and it worked spectacularly well. There is definitely a danger timing, but whether or not Zerg can exploit it effectively I'm not sure. So far all the zergs I've played have tried to counter and done some damage, but not been able to hold off my blink-colossus follow-up.
On July 16 2012 17:29 OrbitalPlane wrote: i dont think you can defend a baneling bust without sentrys. If you see that there are no workers at the 3rd its already too late imho. But that's not the point here anways.I know how to scout these early all ins but i don't think they are the main problem. I was not talking about the 1-2 base roach all ins etc.
What about timing attacks at 8-9min from 3 base with decent drone saturation? If i saw it correctly this guy builds his 2nd gate after 8 minutes...
Didn't Mc play this poke on shakuras against Stephano at the NASL semi finals? Stephano didn't handle it as poorly as the guy in the video and just crushed MC's natural and 3rd.
Yeah I'm pretty sure you can't hold the third against banelings. On most maps these days though you should be able to do a tight wall and hold the natural.
I think the ideal build should go up to 4 gates a bit sooner than the video. An 8 minute push would be quite weak in most cases, as he can't actually be saturated on 3 bases and be building roaches by that point.
On July 16 2012 17:29 OrbitalPlane wrote: i dont think you can defend a baneling bust without sentrys. If you see that there are no workers at the 3rd its already too late imho. But that's not the point here anways.I know how to scout these early all ins but i don't think they are the main problem. I was not talking about the 1-2 base roach all ins etc.
What about timing attacks at 8-9min from 3 base with decent drone saturation? If i saw it correctly this guy builds his 2nd gate after 8 minutes...
Didn't Mc play this poke on shakuras against Stephano at the NASL semi finals? Stephano didn't handle it as poorly as the guy in the video and just crushed MC's natural and 3rd.
You can hold a baneling bust without sentries on some maps with good simcity. Or you can just make a sentry.
Why would it be too late? Zenio's bust hits at ~7:00-7:20. Check his 3rd base with your first zealot (~5:40) or first 2 zealots (~6:00) or 2 zealots and first stalker (~6:10). If you don't see drones or a queen get suspicious.
It's possible they built the queen from the 3rd hatch which would get it out ~6:30. If you can force them to take their 3rd base first with good probe micro blocking that natural hatchery then there should definitely be a queen there when you poke. If they have a queen there you know it's not the Zenio bust.
If his 3rd isn't done or when your first stalker arrives also get suspicious. A 4:00 3rd hatch is standard these days (or ~4:10 if they start 2nd queen before taking it) which finishes at 5:40. If they're taking a 5:00 3rd hatch something is a bit weird.
If you want to play super safe and you don't see proof that it's not an all-in nothing wrong with pulling back taking your other gasses making a sentry and playing a more standard robo sentry expand style.
On July 16 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote: The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base).
"JangBi: I wanted to say more in the tv interview but they cut away really fast. Today's strategy was recommended by Woo assistant coach. It felt like the opponent was completely overpowered by me, such a perfect strategy wasn't given enough time to be talked about was regretful."
On July 16 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote: The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base).
If protoss somehow manage to get into zerg's main and see no gas after 5-6 minutes mark, then sure it's a safe build. Otherwise, this is a coinflip build.
If Protoss doesn't get any scouting information past the 5 minute mark. At 5 minute a protoss will only see, natural hatch completed, 3rd hatch making and if you tried to scout main, your scouting probe will only die to either the queen at natural or at main without seeing the gases. And if the zerg managed to start gas at around 5 minutes mark (which is early because they are preparing for a bust off 3 hatch low drone or simply just playing safe getting 100 gas then pulling drone off gas) then the build isn't viable and an alternative transition to ffe is preferred.
Now, I'm not saying you always stick to this build or it isn't viable, but scouting is key between the 5-6 minute mark. If you manage to KNOW that zerg hasn't even started gas as late as 6 minute mark, then you know your stalkers are free to roam for at least 2.5 minutes (30 seconds for extractor, 1 minute for 100 gas, 2 minute for speed upgrade - 2*walking distance) and control the watch towers and apply pressure which becomes REALLY rewarding if you take a 3rd and cause the zerg to cut drones unnecessarily.
Is there a reason this thread isn't drawing more attention? I watched the replay and it reminded me of just how powerful stalkers are before ling speed comes out. Not to mention that Jangbi lost his first two zealots almost unnecessarily, and still owned it up right afterwards.
I think fast thirds are indeed the answer. Either a quick third or no third IMO.
This is an awesome build. I think those here who are talking about vulnerabilities are underestimating the scouting that you get from constant pressure. Whatever units the zerg would be massing up for an all-in would have to be used in the defense and thus would be scouted. Jangbi takes his third at 7:00 - if he saw a ton of speedlings, banelings, roaches, no third, or no drones at the third prior to 7:00 do you really think he would be taking a quick third?
Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong.
I'm a Masters player (rank 15 with no bonus, I'm not very good), and I did this in a lot of my PvZ's today. I didn't check the b/o so my build was super rough, but I still liked it a lot, Every game I forced A TON OF LINGS and even if I got out of position and mismicro'd and lost my stalkers, I easily held the counter ling attack with some sim city. I usually put 3 or so cannons right up against my nexus with a few gateways in front. In my most recent game by the time my pressure was over, both the Zerg and I were on 3 bases with roughly 60 workers. Of course, my tech was delayed but by the time he was ready for some roach pressure I had 20 stalkers, 8 gateways and blink and +2 were almost done. It seemed like the standard reaction from the Zerg was to throw down a quick fourth, so I didn't face any Stephano style pressure.
Each game I transitioned into +2 blink, pressured with sentries/stalkers and either sniped the fourth of used positioning to get into the main with a ton of blink stalkers/force fields. Even with garbage micro and the loss of my entire army multiple times, I did enough damage to make it more than worth it. Plus, the pressure hits at a timing before hive and delays their tech by a TON by forcing them to make way more spines/roaches than they want to. I can upload a replay if anyone wants, though its not very high level and its very very rough.
On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote: Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong.
Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look.
On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote: Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong.
Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look.
Yeah, that's what I suggested above. The poke and 3rd nexus come much sooner, and you aren't getting early cannons or +1 anyway, so the forge is useless. It feels quite cool to be on equal footing economically in the early game. You do need to know some clean sim city and have good scouting to hold 1 gate fe on some maps, of course.
On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote: Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong.
Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look.
Yeah, that's what I suggested above. The poke and 3rd nexus come much sooner, and you aren't getting early cannons or +1 anyway, so the forge is useless. It feels quite cool to be on equal footing economically in the early game. You do need to know some clean sim city and have good scouting to hold 1 gate fe on some maps, of course.
Do you have a replay with this build? I'd like to see your sim city, as not having a cannon seems pretty risky. I also like opening up with a standard FFE because A) The zerg will blindly follow his standard timings and B) it's harder for a Zerg to know what you're doing to do after an FFE.
On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend. The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust? The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes? i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious.
I would be interested in your scouting method. If i send a scouting prob it doesn't even reach the natural since the queen range buff. i wonder how you get scouting information about buildings in the main.
Did you watch the game?
The whole thing feels amazingly natural, even though 3 hatch and the timings of such can be scouted without denial, the first zealot was rallied to the thirds creep and it really is not too hard to tell if an all-in is coming or not. If there is any doubt, just throw up a bunch of gates instead of nexus
I'd really like for some of the high masters/blue Protoss players here to check this build out thoroughly and see if it could be a good standard PvZ build. At first blush it seems really good but we've only really seen one instance of it so we don't know how Jangbi intended to respond to different scouting information.
Happened upon this thread and I squealed for joy, Jangbi is one of my favorite Protoss players ever, and I was more than happy to try out this build. Just finished a game on ladder, and this build is pretty awesome. Pressured the Zerg's quick third with 2 zealots and 5 stalkers, made him overproduce a shit ton of slowlings while taking my third and teching up to blink and +2. He got his roach warren fairly late so he couldn't pressure my third with just slow lings (he was probably scared of a 2 base timing). In the end, I had a total of 12 gates and just went pure +2 blink stalker, and I finished him off between the 13 and 14 minute mark, being careful and precise as possible with my blink micro.
I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas. If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas. If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural.
It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here.
tried this build 1st time in a custom now.. it worked rly rly good! even a Z who goes save 3 hatch with spine etc will have trouble dealing with it since speed wount be up soon so no gas scout -> easy execution wouldnt use this against early gas Z with speed
btw ophidian - just wanted to tell u u doin a great job - love your cast and even better - that you are linkin VODs for the build keep it up :D
On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas. If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural.
It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here.
Most games I don't straight up lose but I put myself into awkward positions. Well the scenarios so far I've played into unusual speedling timings the following occurs:
Protoss definitely lose his stalkers (3-4 depending how many were roaming on the map) With a good simcity at 3rd Protoss can hold the nexus However, the zerg player, if he wishes, can choose to trade his speedlings for majority of the protosses probe at 3rd. The zerg regains map control Protoss in the dark, knows zerg have gas but doesn't know how much gas, HAVE to prepare for a possible all in regardless whether the zerg droned behind the speedlings or not Now the protoss is behind with fewer gas because 3nd gas was after 3rd nexus meaning less sentries Protoss player in general, cannot move out of the map to be aggressive without 3-4 sentries unless the player wants to risk losing his entire army Meanwhile zerg has the option to get 4th and drone up even heavier
Basically instead of doing this build all the time, I'd rather know a very VERY specific way to transition into jangbi's build through knowing gas timing of zerg. If protoss one way or another can get the gas timing of zerg, then this becomes an incredibly powerful build.
On July 17 2012 11:10 Eifersuchtig wrote: Just a suggestion, if you try this off a gate-nexus a la what Naniwa did in the gsl recently (i've been doing it for several months now) it is unbelievably strong.
Was just about to say the same thing, we've seen a lot of gate nexus plays where people get the cyber quicker and apply heavy stalker pressure early on forcing the speed upgrade or faster roaches. Tails does 1g nexus build if I'm not mistaken, if anyone was curious where to look.
It won't work the same from gate-nexus vs a competent zerg. Why? Beacase the proper answer for Z vs that oppening is to get a faster ling speed and speedlings will crush any light pressure.
On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas. If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural.
It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here.
Most games I don't straight up lose but I put myself into awkward positions. Well the scenarios so far I've played into unusual speedling timings the following occurs:
Protoss definitely lose his stalkers (3-4 depending how many were roaming on the map) With a good simcity at 3rd Protoss can hold the nexus However, the zerg player, if he wishes, can choose to trade his speedlings for majority of the protosses probe at 3rd. The zerg regains map control Protoss in the dark, knows zerg have gas but doesn't know how much gas, HAVE to prepare for a possible all in regardless whether the zerg droned behind the speedlings or not Now the protoss is behind with fewer gas because 3nd gas was after 3rd nexus meaning less sentries Protoss player in general, cannot move out of the map to be aggressive without 3-4 sentries unless the player wants to risk losing his entire army Meanwhile zerg has the option to get 4th and drone up even heavier
Basically instead of doing this build all the time, I'd rather know a very VERY specific way to transition into jangbi's build through knowing gas timing of zerg. If protoss one way or another can get the gas timing of zerg, then this becomes an incredibly powerful build.
Maybe try sacrificing a scouting zealot. It will make the pressure less effective, but maybe you can time it as your other zealot/stalker move to the 3rd and force him to multitask a bit or lose drones.
On July 17 2012 18:15 eScaper-tsunami wrote: I've been playing around with Jangbi's build, and I find it impossible to scout the zerg to check for gas. If I check for gas after zerg's 3rd, there's usually a ling/overlord at zerg's 3rd to make sure no pylon/cannon cheese occurs, therefore probe no longer have the opportunity to go to the main.
If I wait after the 5 min mark, the queen is already out ready to deny my scout. Therefore if I do jangbi's stalker aggression follow up it automatically becomes a coinflip, relying on the ASSUMPTION that zerg didn't gas.
If I go before the 4 min mark, I can confirm the occupancy of zerg's gas, but that only safely guarantees me the earliest speedling completion of 7.5 minute mark. Which actually isn't much time considering that's only 2-3 stalkers
The only option I've played around with is a gas steal on maps such as cloud kingdom where the gases are together. I can check the natural gas since it's wide open and vulnerable to a suicidal probe scout and the stolen gas will tell me if the main gases are taken. Doesn't seem like a very viable build so far unless I want to risk losing all my stalkers to unusual speedling timings in certain games.
Against unusually quick speedling after scouting no gas when the first lings pop out I've lost 3 stalkers at his 3rd base. But I've still held my 3rd and natural.
It ends up that he's stunting his economy to get a more powerful army early but if you're able to play greedy behind this and hold the counter attack it seems like a good situation for you. Unless you're saying you just lose to speedlings here.
Most games I don't straight up lose but I put myself into awkward positions. Well the scenarios so far I've played into unusual speedling timings the following occurs:
Protoss definitely lose his stalkers (3-4 depending how many were roaming on the map) With a good simcity at 3rd Protoss can hold the nexus However, the zerg player, if he wishes, can choose to trade his speedlings for majority of the protosses probe at 3rd. The zerg regains map control Protoss in the dark, knows zerg have gas but doesn't know how much gas, HAVE to prepare for a possible all in regardless whether the zerg droned behind the speedlings or not Now the protoss is behind with fewer gas because 3nd gas was after 3rd nexus meaning less sentries Protoss player in general, cannot move out of the map to be aggressive without 3-4 sentries unless the player wants to risk losing his entire army Meanwhile zerg has the option to get 4th and drone up even heavier
Basically instead of doing this build all the time, I'd rather know a very VERY specific way to transition into jangbi's build through knowing gas timing of zerg. If protoss one way or another can get the gas timing of zerg, then this becomes an incredibly powerful build.
Maybe try sacrificing a scouting zealot. It will make the pressure less effective, but maybe you can time it as your other zealot/stalker move to the 3rd and force him to multitask a bit or lose drones.
If you sacrifice the early zealot to walk into the main... you may or may not see the gas (takes 4-6 lings to kill a zealot) :/ You have to remember that the watch towers are controlled... and by the time first zealot is out... there's a queen at natural and at main... I tried it already and it's really depends on how bad the opponent is...
I'm still hoping we'll see more of this build and/or some good players on here can explore it further. I just tried it out for the first time and loved it but I'm only diamond so I can't really tell if it's solid enough.
How does this build work against Ling/Muta?, especially early mutas and a rather early speed timing (-> Zergs will SEE the mass chrono on your gateway till your stalker pops -> and no +1 etc). I dont see a way to defend 3 Bases without many units, blink and without +1 attack ready vs ling/Muta O_ô
-> You wont be able to really scout gases if he takes to after he denied your scouting probe.
On July 18 2012 20:23 EZ_blacktears wrote: How does this build work against Ling/Muta?, especially early mutas and a rather early speed timing (-> Zergs will SEE the mass chrono on your gateway till your stalker pops -> and no +1 etc). I dont see a way to defend 3 Bases without many units, blink and without +1 attack ready vs ling/Muta O_ô
-> You wont be able to really scout gases if he takes to after he denied your scouting probe.
He will have to cut a bunch of drones early to hold the pressure, he cant just throw up 6 extractors and dump 18 drones into them like zerg would when going muta vs robo third, with blink transition this is a pretty hard counter to it, Mutas seem to be minutes away when the extra gates are done and a blink push from 24 mineral patches instead of 16 hitting before zerg can get a critical mass of speed roaches or a handful of infestors with an army to back them up is almost impossible to trade effectively against
Does anyone have a replay of this, even if it's not executed properly ? Anything really. I would like to see how this plays out in some other scenarios than what happened in the Jangbang game. Thanks
Ye i saw the game of naniwa aswell, mmh.. im still not sure if zerg cant mess it up with "early" double gas speed into mutas... Because when they hit you offguard and you lose your stalkers, i dont see a way to defend your 3rd against lings and main and 2nd vs the first mutas. 1-0 wont be done if the zerg would play a HARD timing against this build :/
Would really love to see many more replays, because it seems kinda fragile to me, but extremly strong against all the roach players.
The pressure forces spines/units, which halts drone production. This means if you keep making probes behind your micro, you will have a better economy. Just wall off well with gates/few cannons for the return pressure, and you should be fine most of the time.
I'd really like to try this. Mixing in a few Stalkers makes it mechanically intensive. The Stalkers must be microed well (can't be lost), you must continue worker production and continually add infrastructure. I really like it, though. It would be great to force Spine/Ling production, allowing you to add perhaps 4 extra Gates, a Robo, more gases, and a safe third.
On July 19 2012 04:01 Jaeger wrote: Just went through nani's stream vod and didn't see this at all. Can someone link the vod and time?
I saw him doing a 2 base blink all-in with 4 sentries and an observer mixed in. That build isn't great against pure stephano style, really. He doesn't pressure at all early on and hits when zerg should already be maxed out.
It's not at all like jangbi's build.
edit: I found a game that looks like the same build. He doesn't pressure as much with his first units, just forcing a few lings and pulling back, but that's still pretty sufficient. http://sv.twitch.tv/quanticnani/b/325242324?t=2h28m
http://drop.sc/223948 - I could've kept pressuring but I wasn't sure if he had speed or not. I even let a ling run by into my main cus I'm bad at this game. Build still needs to be refined but I still have to say its a lot of fun.
http://drop.sc/223948 - I decided eh, what the hell I'll try doing a gate expo without knowing what the build order even is and then wing it from here. Basic idea is the same. I mean even if you execute poorly like I did with no build order, most Zergs that are on auto pilot in ZvP will get wrecked.
Note: I'm uploading these two replays to give people an idea of what it's like. I am terrible at this game, there is no need to tell me this.
so i've found a little problem with this build. what the zerg did was when he saw that i was pressuring with the zealots and stalkers he didn't drone at all and got ling speed and roaches. after wiping the initial stalker / zealots he just attacked my main which had 1 cannon. tried to use sentries but my gates were up a little late. (i might have screwed up my building placement a little, although i don't think it would've mattered much.
On July 19 2012 12:12 Pobbes wrote: so i've found a little problem with this build. what the zerg did was when he saw that i was pressuring with the zealots and stalkers he didn't drone at all and got ling speed and roaches. after wiping the initial stalker / zealots he just attacked my main which had 1 cannon. tried to use sentries but my gates were up a little late. (i might have screwed up my building placement a little, although i don't think it would've mattered much.
I used to do this as zerg. It's pretty risky, as a protoss could be going for a 2 base all-in and not only defend, but counterattack and win easily. I'm not sure what the best way to scout this would be, but possibly just try to hold watch towers or hide a probe after your harass to follow up with scouting. I don't know if it would be viable to mix a robo in this build just for an observer, but that could also help out with the blink attack later anyway.
Thanks for posting a high level replay. Ryze is really good.
I've been going stargate and cutting the second zealot. It has been pretty good. In 25 games at high masters I don't think I have come across anyone who had a hardcounter.
On July 19 2012 12:12 Pobbes wrote: so i've found a little problem with this build. what the zerg did was when he saw that i was pressuring with the zealots and stalkers he didn't drone at all and got ling speed and roaches. after wiping the initial stalker / zealots he just attacked my main which had 1 cannon. tried to use sentries but my gates were up a little late. (i might have screwed up my building placement a little, although i don't think it would've mattered much.
I think pylon blocking his natural slows down your gateway way too much. You're also on a 4 player map which means you had to double scout and forge first which slows everything down once again. You have to go cannon before gate, again slowing things down. For reference JangBi's gate starts at 3:10 yours starts at 3:38.
Your core and zealot are late (gate finishes @ 4:43 core starts @ 4:55, zealot starts @ 5:02). This all adds.
Your first stalker finishes at 6:24 compare that to JangBi's at 5:46.
You start your 2nd gas on time but never mine from it. Your 3rd gas was queued to start on time but you canceled the order (I assume accidentally) so you were way behind on gas.
You got spawned in dumb positions on entombed which means counter attacking is way stronger than it is normally.
His counter attack hits @ 9:00. I think with really good execution you could've had additional gates up and held that although the rocks would make it hard if he continued attacking and bounced back and forth between the natural and the 3rd).
I think the map and especially those spawning positions make it not really a great strategy there. His rally path naturally flanks your units in his 3rd and makes it more difficult to micro/escape/reinforce. If you're going to do it there I think you need to build your cannon in range of the rocks. A cannon can take those rocks down by 7 minutes.
On July 19 2012 12:12 Pobbes wrote: so i've found a little problem with this build. what the zerg did was when he saw that i was pressuring with the zealots and stalkers he didn't drone at all and got ling speed and roaches. after wiping the initial stalker / zealots he just attacked my main which had 1 cannon. tried to use sentries but my gates were up a little late. (i might have screwed up my building placement a little, although i don't think it would've mattered much.
I think pylon blocking his natural slows down your gateway way too much. You're also on a 4 player map which means you had to double scout and forge first which slows everything down once again. You have to go cannon before gate, again slowing things down. For reference JangBi's gate starts at 3:10 yours starts at 3:38.
Your core and zealot are late (gate finishes @ 4:43 core starts @ 4:55, zealot starts @ 5:02). This all adds.
Your first stalker finishes at 6:24 compare that to JangBi's at 5:46.
You start your 2nd gas on time but never mine from it. Your 3rd gas was queued to start on time but you canceled the order (I assume accidentally) so you were way behind on gas.
You got spawned in dumb positions on entombed which means counter attacking is way stronger than it is normally.
His counter attack hits @ 9:00. I think with really good execution you could've had additional gates up and held that although the rocks would make it hard if he continued attacking and bounced back and forth between the natural and the 3rd).
I think the map and especially those spawning positions make it not really a great strategy there. His rally path naturally flanks your units in his 3rd and makes it more difficult to micro/escape/reinforce. If you're going to do it there I think you need to build your cannon in range of the rocks. A cannon can take those rocks down by 7 minutes.
Maybe something like
On a 4 player map, there's just no way that you can use jangbi's build without risking to die to silly early pools. Double scout is almost mandatory (unless playing on GSL version of maps) and that really pushes all timings behind quite a bit.
I still feel this build is best played out on cloud kingdom using a gas steal on zerg's main. I usually do it before I leave the main from zerglings then stall around to check 3rd and because I stole the gas, I cut 1 zealot (which also saves me 1 chronoboost)
Edit: On a side note, I also find that a gas steal on standard maps also helps, if my probe skips out on scouting the 3rd and sneaks into the main without overlords/zerglings catching me before reaching the natural, I can always check the other gas. The initial zealot is then sent to the 3rd.
Naniwa has played around with it a lot of his stream, making some like 5-7 units from his gw and takes a third. Looks pretty nice but it has kind of a weak mid game if the stalkers dont do enough dmg tbh.
I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco)
I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries?
On July 19 2012 17:00 Kornholi0 wrote: I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco)
I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries?
You are assuming the stalker pressure early game does nothing and that the protoss player goes purely into a 3 base blink all-in every single time. Protoss can easily tech after securing the third base with blink stalkers.
I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
No. A max before 11:00 is extremely rare (earliest i have met at low masters was almost 12 minutes) and with any kind of pressure like this they will have a lot of trouble doing what they want. Zerg cannot get a critical mass of speed roaches, or a handful of infestors with supporting army out fast enough to trade well and come out ahead against 3 base blink aggression very easily at all, the few games i have seen end with zerg unable to get supply up enough to either deny the third in good economic standings or hold an all in comfortably, it seems to be extremely dangerous, im gonna try some on ladder soonish
On July 19 2012 17:00 Kornholi0 wrote: I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco)
I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries?
You start pressure a lot earlier, at a time where the zerg still needs to drone in order to hit the 11:00 max timing. Theoretical max timings aren't relevant if you do this build properly.
I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
No. A max before 11:00 is extremely rare (earliest i have met at low masters was almost 12 minutes) and with any kind of pressure like this they will have a lot of trouble doing what they want. Zerg cannot get a critical mass of speed roaches, or a handful of infestors with supporting army out fast enough to trade well and come out ahead against 3 base blink aggression very easily at all, the few games i have seen end with zerg unable to get supply up enough to either deny the third in good economic standings or hold an all in comfortably, it seems to be extremely dangerous, im gonna try some on ladder soonish
I can max any game at 10:30 with no pressure. It's just very different when you have a 2 zealot 1 stalker type of early pressure.
I have played with this build agaisn't one of my friends and won the three games we played and I feel like this build is straight up very hard to do on some map like Ohana and Entombed where if you try pressuring the third, the lings reinforcement from the main and nat comes in from behind you, creating a situation where it is really easy for the zerg to surround your units. It works much better on maps like Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak where all the lings reinforcement comes from the same place so it is much easier to not loose your stalkers.
Also, not being used to multitasking this heavily early in the game combined with the fact that I don't know the build yet makes it so I have a lot of trouble getting the build right Sometimes I forget a gas, sometimes I forget my third base, then I can't add gateways because I don't have pylon coverage, then you realize you have forgotten your +1 zzzzzz
I feel like during your poke, you should try to target queens down as killing them will considerably slows a stephano style roach build if he tries it. He will have to rebuild queen, he wasn't able to drone hard, maybe even lost drones. I usually achieve to keep the zerg on a similar drone (not to mine to himself, if he has 35 drones at the start, maybe he will have 38 drones at the end, exemple) count from like 6:00 to 8:00 depending on how well I control my stuff. This makes it really hard, if not impossible, to hit a full strength 200 pop roach attack in a reasonable timing. If you do what you consider enough damage, I would proceed with the 11min stalker push, if you don't do enough damage, I would suggest a build a little bit more defensive and hitting the usual pre-broodlord timing.
Final thoughts : Sick build @ my opinion.
P.S : I have replays if anyone wants them, as I said, I don't really do the build well, and sometimes I forget some stuff, but the general feel is there.
On July 19 2012 17:00 Kornholi0 wrote: I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
I feel really bad for protoss cause they basically are forced to 2 base all-in to contest, or turtle colossi (end up losing shortly thereafter to corruptors from zergs 4-5 base eco)
I think if you take this same build, maybe cut 1 stalker per warp in, and tech towards colossi you would have less unit by 11:00 but maybe immortals and more sentries?
....
The +2 pure blink stalker attack is not core to the opening. Hence I say in the OP:
On July 15 2012 02:42 Jaeger wrote: Add a bunch of gates to be safe against a counter attack. Then transition into your tech path of choice.
6 gate robo works nicely. You can get a healthy sentry stalker immortal composition for any mega roach timings and then when zerg transitions to hive switch into double robo colossus and hit a pre-broodlord timing with 4 colossus with range and a ton of blink stalkers.
Looks like a really solid build, will try it out once I get home since I have been struggling when it comes to PvZ. One question though, what would be the suggested response if the initial 2 zealot an 5 stalker push were to be thwarted without much losses from the Zerg opponent? Should I still aim to get my third although it would be harder to defend or would I just try to go for an all in?
On July 20 2012 10:07 Sauquim wrote: Looks like a really solid build, will try it out once I get home since I have been struggling when it comes to PvZ. One question though, what would be the suggested response if the initial 2 zealot an 5 stalker push were to be thwarted without much losses from the Zerg opponent? Should I still aim to get my third although it would be harder to defend or would I just try to go for an all in?
Unless you move command your stuff into his base I don't see how you can loose your stuff without dealing damage. Even if he kills it, he suffered damage since he made lings. If you happened to loose some units, you still have your reinforcement to apply pressure and make him feel uneasy. You have to remember that the initial poke is 2 zeal 1 stalk then your stalker come in one by one. You might loose some units for no reason but after 3-4 games, it shouldn't happen anymore.
Now to the actual question, I feel like you can still get away with it provided you actually lost your units for a reason (ie : you lost them because you were busy making sure you did the build properly and that the third and gates were going down on time. Note that if you loose your units, your thid is most likely already underway so you don't really have the choice, you must continue. Just add some cannons, depending on how hard you were shut down and proceed with the plan.
EDIT : Oh yeah and remember that you don't have to loose your units, if you feel like you applied enough pressure and there is too much stuff out, play it safe. Back away, stop kiting constantly and only do it when you actually have time to do it. Don't try to multitask too hard if you can't do it. With decent control, you shouldn't even loose a single stalker. Your zealots will die no matter what tho, so use them to lower the ling count as much as possible.
The flowchart I use after the pressure is the following :
After the 2 zealot 5 stalker poke I ask myself the question "Did I deal enough damage, and forced enough lings out?"
Yes : I transition into the blink timing Jangbi used. No : I transition into DT while still starting +2 attack and blink shortly after. I make 3 DT, one for each base, and try to kill as many drones as I can
Now after the DT, I come back with the question : "Did I deal enough damage?"
Yes : Proceed with blink timing, although it comes in later, your DT dealt enough damage to make sure the zerg doesn't have a force big enough to challenge yours, with proper micro, you should be able to win easily. Make sure to deny potential 4th base, you don't want him to outmacro you just because you think he has no drones. No : Transition into some sort of pre-broodlord timing as you do in usual PvZ.
Whoah that's really insightful, I've been playing Protoss for only a week now and this really helps me understand the thought process behind playing Protoss in addition to learning a new sick build, will definitely try it out.
Hi guys I made an fpvod on me trying this build! It's not perfect because it's my first time doing it. I did the blink transition after the gate pressure.
I know this build sounds great, but "a bunch of +2 blink stalkers at 11 minutes" really doesn't seem that great, considering you can get maxed anywhere from 10:30-11:30 with roach/ling, without sentries or immortals you can't trade stalkers effectively enough.
No. A max before 11:00 is extremely rare (earliest i have met at low masters was almost 12 minutes) and with any kind of pressure like this they will have a lot of trouble doing what they want. Zerg cannot get a critical mass of speed roaches, or a handful of infestors with supporting army out fast enough to trade well and come out ahead against 3 base blink aggression very easily at all, the few games i have seen end with zerg unable to get supply up enough to either deny the third in good economic standings or hold an all in comfortably, it seems to be extremely dangerous, im gonna try some on ladder soonish
I can max any game at 10:30 with no pressure. It's just very different when you have a 2 zealot 1 stalker type of early pressure.
There is a difference between "no pressure" and being 100% safe against everything though, legit games will never put you at the same max timings as an empty game unless you take risks. Lowest i can explicitly remember was 11:17 max in a legit game, and that was by Nestea or Stephano
looks like a cool build, also the vod is awesome. Is the stalker harass necessary at the zergs third in order to get your own third up without pressure from the lings ?
Most builds with early aggression require solid mechanics, but this build is doable with 60-70 APM at a decent level (one of my practice partners has an APM that never goes over 100 and I've been getting him to do this build to me).
On July 23 2012 21:19 althaz wrote: Most builds with early aggression require solid mechanics, but this build is doable with 60-70 APM at a decent level (one of my practice partners has an APM that never goes over 100 and I've been getting him to do this build to me).
Just microing the stalkers should be more than 60. I don't understand how it is possible to do it with 70 apm.
You don't need to spend 60 APM on microing the stalkers. If you have low APM, concentrate on your macro. You can do things like control, then every 30s pull back go back to your base, build a pylon/whatever, then go back to your army. You won't have world-class control obvioulsy with 70 APM, but you can have good enough control for Diamond or lower at least whilst still keeping up solid macro.
I'm going to go and try it out, playing slowly .
EDIT: Well, I didn't manage to keep it down to 70 APM, but I stayed in the low 90s and managed ok. Obviously playing naturally would be better .
EDIT2: Of course your stalker control suffers a little, but it's good enough. Just keep your zealots in between your stalkers and lings and concentrate on retaining units rather than retaining units AND causing maximum damage. Of course you will be less effective, but, IMO, the purpose of this is to force units before Zerg has had a chance to power their econ (any really early attacks hurt your econ a lot more than if you are terran or toss).
APM 100 (EPM 60 y I spam) When was executing build was feeling some slips in macro, but then I haven't yet played the build for 50 to 100 times, so I really think that it's fine to execute it with 70 EPM. Ofc more amp will benefit more from this pressure.
APM is only relevant in spikes. EPM is entirely irrelevant. If you can't control your units while you macro, playing builds like this one will teach you how to do that..
I have one big question: Why even get the cannon? Why not just go with Gateway first, get the Forge later to time out with when you want to dump 100 gas into +1 weapons, and skip the cannon entirely? I mean, it's a different opening obviously, but I wonder if the Forge and Cannon are economically a mistake, if you scout the Zerg and see standard Pool/Hatch timing with no gas.
You want the cannon regardless to be safe against runbys if you go nexus first like Jangbi did. I never really do gassless 1gate fe so i don't know how this build would work as a followup to that though.
On July 23 2012 20:15 Rimak wrote: This is so good. Used it with my practice partner - diamond zerg (plat myself), worked out really great.
Went for 1 gate pressure into 4gate +1 into 3rd into 8 gate blink-immortal.
Solid.
Jangbi's opening has no chronos on cyber core (they are all on units) so you wont actuly have warpgate ready until you have a lot more than 4 gateways. The entire point of the opening is to take a third from 1 gate, are you sure you are doing something similar (with 3 chrono's on probes, then chain chrono on your 1 gate to make 7 units before warpgate?)
This build is excellent in the current gasless zerg meta, watching Oz take the opening of this build into stargate really inspired me.
It is also an excellent build in a learning sense, having to actively chrono, hit gas timings etc you need some multitasking to micro against lings during all this. Once you get your third going with your 8+ gateways you feel so comfortable to defend and tech or attack with a good economy.
This build is also preferable on taldarim altar as, using your first 3 units to knock down the rocks, the timings line up with your third nexus.
On July 23 2012 20:09 scsequeL wrote: looks like a cool build, also the vod is awesome. Is the stalker harass necessary at the zergs third in order to get your own third up without pressure from the lings ?
the harass at the third is the whole point of the build, to hit zerg when he is weak and force lings so you can expand and get ahead in economy.
On July 23 2012 20:09 scsequeL wrote: looks like a cool build, also the vod is awesome. Is the stalker harass necessary at the zergs third in order to get your own third up without pressure from the lings ?
the harass at the third is the whole point of the build, to hit zerg when he is weak and force lings so you can expand and get ahead in economy.
Yes, nexus first is already good for rivaling zergs economy in early game, but forcing lings too ive found you can pretty consistently either do notable damage or get 5+ workers ahead
Tried this build several times, so for 16 for 16 games with this. Amazingly strong and you can actually hold the counter attack which I thought would be fatal. Very impressive! :D
I'd say the one thing you need to watch out for if you do this build (other than the obvious stuff) is choosing your follow up. Jangbi did that blink follow up and it works pretty well but if you're control isn't that good or you feel more comfortable with playing a bit more of a macro game, I suggest throwing down 5 or gateways and then a robo, and then doing a +3/+1 or +2/+1 colossus timing before hive.
I have just recently been seeing more use of naniwa's 1 gate expand into a 2 base 4 gate to attack the third base of the Zerg early on while securing yourself your natural. How does jangbi's build compare to naniwa's? I've been interested in both and having seen the recent game from MC vs seal I believe in the dual proleague, it has made me wonder the pros and cons of both builds.
On July 24 2012 10:04 Sauquim wrote: I have just recently been seeing more use of naniwa's 1 gate expand into a 2 base 4 gate to attack the third base of the Zerg early on while securing yourself your natural. How does jangbi's build compare to naniwa's? I've been interested in both and having seen the recent game from MC vs seal I believe in the dual proleague, it has made me wonder the pros and cons of both builds.
They are very very different openings and it is almost like playing a different matchup in the first ~15 minutes
They are pretty different, but there are some important similarities when you consider the boosted gateway pressure backed by a nexus. I wonder if it's just better to 13 Gate in base and scout after Gate. If you build it next to your nexus it's safe from 6-8 pools, and then you wall off the low ground with your extra gates/forge/tech building(s) etc.
Jangbi FFE-->Pressure Pros: -Looks like a regular FFE and often gives the zerg a false sense of security -Faster Nexus Cons: -Slower pressure timing since it's Nexus-->Forge-->Gateway -Spending money on a Forge and Cannon early on during a pressure build
1Gate 1Gas FE Pros: -Faster pressure because it's gateway first -You don't cut probes -300 minerals Cons: -Slower Nexus -Later wall-off against later pool pressures/dedicated ling busts (might be compensated for by early boosted gateway units)
Going gate/cyber with a gas is completely different and will prompt a completely different reaction from zerg. The instant they see a 1basing protoss they will get their gas up, which means ling speed can be up as fast as 6/7 minutes depending on when they scout.
This also means that your window to harass is between only 5 and 6 minutes (your units have to be at your natural when lings speed finished, never after or it's really easy to get caught and die). In this window of time, all you can realistically have is one zealot and 2 stalkers. The instant their ling speed finishes, you can't secure a third while only having a single gateway, so the followup that Jangbi does is also out of the question.
On the other hand, with ffe vs no gas 3 hatch you can harass between 6 ish mintues (when your first zealot arrives at his third) and 9 when his ling speed can finish (assuming zerg takes gas at 6 like they usually do). In this window of time, you will have 2 zealots and 5 stalkers rallied afaik, which is a much scarier force that can harass for a longer period of time.
On July 24 2012 17:29 Teoita wrote: Going gate/cyber with a gas is completely different and will prompt a completely different reaction from zerg. The instant they see a 1basing protoss they will get their gas up, which means ling speed can be up as fast as 6/7 minutes depending on when they scout.
This also means that your window to harass is between only 5 and 6 minutes (your units have to be at your natural when lings speed finished, never after or it's really easy to get caught and die). In this window of time, all you can realistically have is one zealot and 2 stalkers. The instant their ling speed finishes, you can't secure a third while only having a single gateway, so the followup that Jangbi does is also out of the question.
On the other hand, with ffe vs no gas 3 hatch you can harass between 6 ish mintues (when your first zealot arrives at his third) and 9 when his ling speed can finish (assuming zerg takes gas at 6 like they usually do). In this window of time, you will have 2 zealots and 5 stalkers rallied afaik, which is a much scarier force that can harass for a longer period of time.
I think it's a bit later than 6 minutes. If they open 15 pool into hatch and scout with overlords only (which is the standard), they will see that it's gateway play and start their gas about then. That means the timing window isn't until the 6 minute mark; it's about the 7 to 7:30 minute mark. I guess if you consider going home worth a minute, you have until ~6 to 6:30 to do damage and then leave. I should probably go do some research on this, because I pay a lot more attention to what I scout when I scout it than I do to the in-game clock during a game.
Either way, the goal is to do damage before speed is out. I suppose if you use the FFE that means the zerg invests 300 minerals+drone into a third hatch and gets a gas a bit later, so the timing window is probably similar in length (but just delayed in the case of the FFE). There's also the faster +1 weapons, which is mostly relevant in dealing with zerglings (though obviously always useful).
I think with opening gateway first you are inclined to "do damage" in order to even out the economical disparity, but you don't really have to kill stuff to do damage. All you have to do is slow that third base down and indirectly reduce the drone count by forcing earlier gas (one killed drone) and a bunch of lings/some number of spines (more killed drones). But if they open up standard, that's not very hard to do with Stalkers and a Zealot, since they have to be concerned with a followup involving more gateways or some kind of tech. So they could just call your bluff and keep droning behind minimal defense, but if you actually are adding on more production the warpgate timing can just kill them--especially with the potential to just forcefield the ramp twice and kill the natural.
I don't know; I'm just glad to see some different styles showing up in the openings for PvZ because the generic FFE shouldn't be the only way to start a game.
On July 23 2012 20:15 Rimak wrote: This is so good. Used it with my practice partner - diamond zerg (plat myself), worked out really great.
Went for 1 gate pressure into 4gate +1 into 3rd into 8 gate blink-immortal.
Solid.
Jangbi's opening has no chronos on cyber core (they are all on units) so you wont actuly have warpgate ready until you have a lot more than 4 gateways. The entire point of the opening is to take a third from 1 gate, are you sure you are doing something similar (with 3 chrono's on probes, then chain chrono on your 1 gate to make 7 units before warpgate?)
I C.
Thank you, I should proceed to 3rd into gates then?
On July 23 2012 20:15 Rimak wrote: This is so good. Used it with my practice partner - diamond zerg (plat myself), worked out really great.
Went for 1 gate pressure into 4gate +1 into 3rd into 8 gate blink-immortal.
Solid.
Jangbi's opening has no chronos on cyber core (they are all on units) so you wont actuly have warpgate ready until you have a lot more than 4 gateways. The entire point of the opening is to take a third from 1 gate, are you sure you are doing something similar (with 3 chrono's on probes, then chain chrono on your 1 gate to make 7 units before warpgate?)
I C.
Thank you, I should proceed to 3rd into gates then?
Doesnt really matter, but if you have warpgate and +1 done and ready for pressure and dont have a bunch of extra money, and didnt cut those 7 units (chrono'd) then something seems wrong, your +1 is delayed and neither warpgate nor upgrade is chrono'd with this opening
Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening.
On July 25 2012 04:00 Vaporak wrote: Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening.
Seed has been doing Gate expands on his stream for a couple of months, and he did one in the top 8 against Symbol. I know I've seen at least one other high level korean doing a Gate opener lately, too, but I don't remember who. There might honestly be a revolution happening. I think Naniwa definitely did his opening specifically because he was playing against DRG, but that doesn't automatically make it a bad opening against early pools or other players. DRG is known for 6pooling every once in a while, especially in best of 5s (and super-especially on Entombed Valley; DRG hates that map). You can fight a 6-8 pool with a gateway opener if you know what you're doing, and it often puts you in a better position than the FFE does from that point because you already have a gateway and zealot. It's better if you put the first gate right by your nexus instead of at the ramp, so you can defend with probes more easily (and lose less mining time), but it's still doable at the ramp with good micro.
On July 25 2012 04:00 Vaporak wrote: Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening.
1 gate expand is viable. It's not used commonly because Nexus first is better economically.
However, if you wall off low ground with your 1 gate and pylons you can be 100% safe from ling pressure, and still get forge in time for roach all ins if necessary.
On July 25 2012 04:00 Vaporak wrote: Gate expand hasn't been standard for a long time because if you didn't get a forge&cannon and huddled in your base anyways the zerg would just walk up and kill/cripple you. As far as I was aware Naniwa went gate expand against DRG because he was betting DRG would just assume FFE and do the 3 hatch opening on auto pilot. Unless there's been some big revolution in the gate expand builds that the pro's don't know about FFE is still the way to go over gate expo if you want to do a solid opening.
1 gate expand is viable. It's not used commonly because Nexus first is better economically.
This is true, but by going purerly for economy with Nexus first you force yourself to either go into Forge+cannon or you have to take a serious gamble with a late gateway. Also, Nexus first almost always is followed by a serious probe cut because you have to build a Nexus, Forge, and often Gateway before your second pylon--and then you resume production. So if you open with a Gateway, it won't give you that faster nexus, but you have a probe lead over the zerg consistently until his first inject makes 4 drones; you are constantly producing probes. And then he has to deal with the fact that you have some units, which means map control, more careful overlord placement, and no third base until he gets the units/ling speed to defend it. So all you really have to do is hang on to that early worker count, force him to make a couple non-drone units (or kill drones by turning them into a gas/spine crawler), and then get your second Nexus up about when your main is fully saturated.
However, if you wall off low ground with your 1 gate and pylons you can be 100% safe from ling pressure, and still get forge in time for roach all ins if necessary.
and continue with the OP's build from there, chronoing out stalker/sentry and taking a fast 3rd off 1 gate.
You scout on 13, and if you see earlier pool just chrono zealots and sim city for the win.
This is pretty safe and solid. I personally think that building your 13 gate in your main is the safest from early pools because you can use probe pulls to defend it quickly without losing too much mining time. Then, later on, you wall the low ground with additional gates/Forge/Twilight to deal with speedling run-bys. If you see really early (non-reactionary) gas, you can wall off the natural earlier. Or you can put the second gate down there before your Nexus and go for some 2gate pressure.
So for me it's:
9 pylon (constant probes after this) 13 gate (by nexus/gas)-->probe scout 14 gas 16 pylon (by nexus and gateway) 17 core Zealot Constant Stalkers after Zealot Nexus 2nd Gas Wall-off low ground and choose tech path/transition
I boost workers 3 times (even against scouted 6pool) and then constantly boost my gateway for more units until the second Nexus is done. You can also cancel the Zealot if you see Hatch first or a late pool and use the extra minerals to get a faster nexus.
It's ridiculously safe because your base is very close together in the beginning of the game, then you have a Zealot and Stalker to kill/chase away lings. When you go to poke with the Zealot and Stalker, your second Stalker pops out and denies ling scouting up your ramp, and then as that one goes across the map you have a third to pop out; etc. If you see like 8 or 10 lings, your Zealot and 2 Stalkers will clean all of that up if they try to engage, and if you see gas coming, it usually means you just pull back 30 seconds before the speed timing and build a sentry, and by then your base is walled off at the natural and you can punish overextension from speedlings with the forcefield.
I saw Mana doing it on his stream yesterday and was thinking, this is exactly what I've been playing lately! I like what Jambi did with the constant boost on the gateway from a 16 Nexus FFE, but it seems like you could one-up it with a full-blown 13 Gate Stalker pressure expand. The principle is the same, but the timings are much earlier.
EDIT: just saw some discussion of holding 6pools with the 13gate. I don't have the replays right on hand atm, but it's actually pretty easy to crush the 6pool with your zealot+probes by mineral walking down your ramp as the lings come up and surrounding them. If you can catch and kill the first 6 lings this quickly, then you pretty much auto-win. You can even go all in with your zealot(s) and probes. He can't see your probes at the top of the ramp, so he has no way to avoid this (unless you're close air on some weird map where he can get his OL to your ramp in time).
Loving this build ATM, but one trouble i having that i dont with other builds is over building probes. I keep building 80+ haha Ive also found that this buld helps so much with your multitasking. Props to the OP
On July 27 2012 08:02 wOod LeaGue wrote: Loving this build ATM, but one trouble i having that i dont with other builds is over building probes. I keep building 80+ haha Ive also found that this buld helps so much with your multitasking. Props to the OP
Yeah you get saturated so quickly. I think maybe 5 or so probes after you saturate your third base it's time to stop building probes.
After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker.
On July 27 2012 08:02 wOod LeaGue wrote: Loving this build ATM, but one trouble i having that i dont with other builds is over building probes. I keep building 80+ haha Ive also found that this buld helps so much with your multitasking. Props to the OP
I believe that when your 3rd finishes you're saturated on your main and natural (or at least very very close). You can ensure their saturation level real quick and then just rally all nexus to the 3rd and you only have to monitor the probe count there (assuming you lose no probes at your main and nat as the game goes on).
For the blink stalker +2 follow up you get exactly 61 (16*3, 6*2, 1 to proxy pylon) probes and 10 gateways (go up to 6 when you take your 3rd, 4 more when getting ready to move out).
On July 27 2012 09:20 SpiZe wrote: After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker.
There are more ways of scouting than seeing what you are looking to see. By scouting the timing of the zerg third base, you can ascertain his gas timing. Yes you should be leaving at about 9 minutes, but you should also have accomplished what you set out to do, expand your economy whilst stalling zerg droning.
After playing this a few times and reviewing the replays I can safely say that, with hitting the timings, protoss comes out at least even with zerg at 10 minutes.
On July 27 2012 09:20 SpiZe wrote: After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker.
There are more ways of scouting than seeing what you are looking to see. By scouting the timing of the zerg third base, you can ascertain his gas timing. Yes you should be leaving at about 9 minutes, but you should also have accomplished what you set out to do, expand your economy whilst stalling zerg droning.
After playing this a few times and reviewing the replays I can safely say that, with hitting the timings, protoss comes out at least even with zerg at 10 minutes.
I don't think you can tell anything about gas by the 3rd base timing.
You can detect some all-ins by queen count but unless someone can prove otherwise gas after lings vs gas @ ~6 minutes is basically indistinguishable.
Not sure if it matters though. You can hold 3hatch into speedlings with simcity and losing a couple of units at his third doesn't really affect you that much.
On July 27 2012 09:20 SpiZe wrote: After having played with this build for a while, one of the main problem is gas timing : there is no way to know it. So you have two choice, either you play it safe and back up at around 8 minutes, meaning it's pretty much useless to build the last units, or you hope he played standard and back up before 9 minutes.
There should be a way to scout zerg's main base but if the zerg is not asleep, he should have absolutely no problem killing the probes with lings So unless the zerg is adk with his queen on the opposite side of BOTH hatchery (main and nat), you can't scout with probe. Only way I have thought of is to scout with a zealot... but that makes the build much weaker.
There are more ways of scouting than seeing what you are looking to see. By scouting the timing of the zerg third base, you can ascertain his gas timing. Yes you should be leaving at about 9 minutes, but you should also have accomplished what you set out to do, expand your economy whilst stalling zerg droning.
After playing this a few times and reviewing the replays I can safely say that, with hitting the timings, protoss comes out at least even with zerg at 10 minutes.
Not sure how his 4:10 third base is gonna be influenced by his gas timing which comes at either 5:00 or 6:00. If he gas before his third, it's easily scoutable. If zerg gets a single gas right after his third, speed comes really early.
You could sacrifice a Zealot to check his natural for a drone count. Usually during a pressure,a player will have his main fully saturated and have less at his natural (where they can be sniped). If it's a bit undersaturated, that's an indication of ling production. Ling production is often an indication of speed, so you should go home and know that you've done your job. The zerg built non-drone stuff, lost about a minute of mining time on 3 drones, lost a drone and 25 extra minerals to build an extractor earlier, and is behind. If you can hold your natural, you should be fine--even if you poorly trade about 3 stalkers away to ~20 speedlings out on the map.
On July 28 2012 09:04 SpiZe wrote: Not sure how his 4:10 third base is gonna be influenced by his gas timing which comes at either 5:00 or 6:00. If he gas before his third, it's easily scoutable. If zerg gets a single gas right after his third, speed comes really early.
This attack starts at 5~ minutes with your first zealot, you should see if he cut a third queen and took a gas before he has speed finished. If in doubt just retreat 3 minutes after you saw his early third hatch.
god I hope this build works. I am REALLY REALLY getting sick and tired of the amount of Masss [unit] builds that zerg does.
I cannot seem to find a way to win vs a zerg opponent unless they majorly screw up.
The largest bane of my play is mass ling or mass roaches, and it is a never ending stream of them, though on 3 base I cannot keep up enough production or income to support a sufficient income to defend. It then comes down a matter of attrition: Zerg units are so cheap and specifically strong, protoss units expensive, and weak vs those T1 and T2 units.
It is to the point that I consider uninstalling the game, zerg is so broken. Nothing in my arsenal of protosss builds works in any way shape or form.
On July 28 2012 09:57 Grimmyman123 wrote: god I hope this build works. I am REALLY REALLY getting sick and tired of the amount of Masss [unit] builds that zerg does.
I cannot seem to find a way to win vs a zerg opponent unless they majorly screw up.
The largest bane of my play is mass ling or mass roaches, and it is a never ending stream of them, though on 3 base I cannot keep up enough production or income to support a sufficient income to defend. It then comes down a matter of attrition: Zerg units are so cheap and specifically strong, protoss units expensive, and weak vs those T1 and T2 units..
And this is why pressure builds are awesome. We're supposed to be the aggressor in this match-up, not the Zerg. We're supposed to be across the map on creep, killing drones and forcing non-drone units. I'm fine with playing macro games, but I'm not going to waste my money on needless cannons when my opponent is droning his face off.
On July 28 2012 09:57 Grimmyman123 wrote: god I hope this build works. I am REALLY REALLY getting sick and tired of the amount of Masss [unit] builds that zerg does.
I cannot seem to find a way to win vs a zerg opponent unless they majorly screw up.
The largest bane of my play is mass ling or mass roaches, and it is a never ending stream of them, though on 3 base I cannot keep up enough production or income to support a sufficient income to defend. It then comes down a matter of attrition: Zerg units are so cheap and specifically strong, protoss units expensive, and weak vs those T1 and T2 units.
It is to the point that I consider uninstalling the game, zerg is so broken. Nothing in my arsenal of protosss builds works in any way shape or form.
Don't blame the game. Your arsenal is either small or you aren't executing properly. Good forcefields with good sim city will allow u to beat those builds if ur playing well.
On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote: Like the build! My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks!
You simply can't take your third as quickly if your opponent has a ton of speedlings off 2 bases. A 2 base 8-gate +2 attack blink stalker all-in is usually really strong against a 2 base zerg, but if you want to take a third you can try to do it just a little bit later than you would otherwise. The stalker/zealot pressure won't be a good idea there either.
On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote: Like the build! My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks!
You simply can't take your third as quickly if your opponent has a ton of speedlings off 2 bases. A 2 base 8-gate +2 attack blink stalker all-in is usually really strong against a 2 base zerg, but if you want to take a third you can try to do it just a little bit later than you would otherwise. The stalker/zealot pressure won't be a good idea there either.
Ok thanks! Where could I find a 2base +2 blink allin?
On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote: Like the build! My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks!
You simply can't take your third as quickly if your opponent has a ton of speedlings off 2 bases. A 2 base 8-gate +2 attack blink stalker all-in is usually really strong against a 2 base zerg, but if you want to take a third you can try to do it just a little bit later than you would otherwise. The stalker/zealot pressure won't be a good idea there either.
Ok thanks! Where could I find a 2base +2 blink allin?
There should be some around here. I know lately it's more popular to go for about 4 sentries and fake a 3rd nexus, then cancel it and attack with 7 gate blink and +2. In the past I used this:
17 nexus forge pylon gate cannon 2 gas +1 attack 2 more gas twilight blink +2 attack, add 7 gates (cut at 44 probes) attack around 10 minutes with about 16 stalkers and send 1-2 probes to build proxy pylons.
On August 01 2012 11:57 AnonymousEmu wrote: Ok sweet thanks , Im not to crazy about faking an expo just because more than half the time they never scout it in the first place ... lol
You only really need to do that vs a good player who is going 3 hatch. A 2 base player can't really deal with it easily even if they know it's coming.
I've had pretty good success doing this same 2 zealot 5 stalker pressure off 1 gate into a 2base 3 immortal warp prism timing attack. Just involves starting your gasses earlier (like after first stalker), adding a robo, then adding on the additional 5 gates in your main without taking a 3rd.
I find this a bit preferable on maps like antiga where it's hard to hold roach ling aggression but very easy to assault their 3rd with immortal sentry.
I really like this build. It's too bad my execution of it is SO sloppy. I regularly forget to make probes and my nexus is always late...still works though
On August 01 2012 08:56 AnonymousEmu wrote: Like the build! My question is if this works vs a zerg without a fast 3rd, because at my silver level a small amount of zergs will take a fast 3rd
Thanks!
Below diamond just practice a basic 2 base all in, and adapting to situations. Dont use a build order, follow an idea of when/how you should be getting things and what your goals in the game are, you will need to do that if you plan on being successful at masters+ at any point in time.
A little scary to pull off vs fast lings. Depending on the map, it can be difficult to defend the third to a counter attack if you aren't careful with multitasking.
On August 08 2012 06:57 Ea wrote: A little scary to pull off vs fast lings. Depending on the map, it can be difficult to defend the third to a counter attack if you aren't careful with multitasking.
This is OK though. The whole point of this opener in PvZ is to prevent the Zerg from doing what he really wants to do which is endless droning. If you can force an early speed upgrade, the Zerg is sacrificing something. If you can force a bunch of Lings, the Zerg is sacrificing something. You don't actually have to attack and deal damage with your units...you can often just force the Zerg to play a "fair" game instead of growing his economy by leaps and bounds and that act alone is enough to make it all worthwhile.
I often find myself using this build on the ladder and dropping the early Stalker pressure because the Zerg has done something to counteract it, but at least the economy is evenly matched. You don't *have* to attack or make Stalkers early if it's not going to work. The beauty of this build is you can follow up with pretty much whatever you want, and so long as you are scouting the Zerg and reacting properly then you should be in good shape with a good economy while theirs isn't light years ahead of you.
EPT
JangBi showed a nice build recently in proleague against 
Sacsri. [vod]
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GgihM.jpg)
