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On July 15 2012 11:59 quillian wrote:
I like it, this is similar to what I've been doing with my 1 gate fe PvZ, except you can pressure sooner with zealots and faster warpgate. My current build gets a 5:30 nexus, right after the first 2 zealots and stalker chase the scouting lings and overlord away. Need to explore transitions more fully, I quite like the blink play shown here.
This also relies on the current metagame -- if zergs start getting earlier roach warrens reactively, it could just die outright.
Unless that's a 5:30 3rd Nexus, that's a REALLY slow Nexus by today's standards.
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On July 15 2012 14:39 RyLai wrote:
It's good to finally see Protoss players (or at least just Jangbi) do something REALLY cool without centering everything around Warp Gate tech, and off of a single gateway! But it's heavily reliant on Zergs being as greedy as they've been the past several months. If they'd just get early Ling Speed, they could not only stop the pressure, but more or less deny your third base until you have a decent army. It'd be nice if Protoss players throw in early non-warp pressure like this to force Zerg players to be a little less greedy and maybe force them to at least get an earlier Ling Speed. Hell, it'd be REALLY cool if Protoss players started developing a lot of cool little pressure openers that didn't rely on Warp Gate tech.
Yep but as long as you scout his gas just before lings pop (and he hasn't taken it yet) you know you'll have at least 3 minutes before he has ling speed.
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Jangbi is the master of the 2/1 Gate in BW so this is probably a good build even though it's in SC2.
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What a cool build. So happy kespa players are around. Between this and the way nony has been playing I feel like the matchup is really opening up for me. Also I think it is 3:10 after the gas starts that they can have speed.
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On July 15 2012 04:28 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:46 city42 wrote:On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote:
I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer. I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus... On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map.
Similarly, early pools aren't as strong on small maps, and you can still double probe scout on 4 player maps, or just take the gamble that 4 player maps are.
It's not like the build just falls apart if you can't go nexus first. You could just do the build with a forge first, or just do it on 2 player maps...
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On July 15 2012 15:32 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 04:28 Zephyr.Sky wrote:On July 15 2012 03:46 city42 wrote:On July 15 2012 03:39 Zephyr.Sky wrote:
I should also point out that 17 nexus is very greedy. Any early pool build would walk over you. 14forge/15nex is safer. I don't think he is suggesting a blind 17 nexus... On a large map that is the only kind of 17 nexus there is. By the time you scout the zerg you will probably reach that food. Unless it's a 2 player map. Similarly, early pools aren't as strong on small maps, and you can still double probe scout on 4 player maps, or just take the gamble that 4 player maps are. It's not like the build just falls apart if you can't go nexus first. You could just do the build with a forge first, or just do it on 2 player maps...
I'm not sure how much the 2 zealots rely on timing but it might be that it doesn't time out well enough with forge first. If any mid master and above zerg are around I'd be happy to help test it.
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Those Kespa scrubs coming up with good sc2 builds? Awesome! Especially to see this stuff when he's, you know, preparing for the last OSL final and all. No big deal.
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anyone got any high level replays of this?
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On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case.
the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine.
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nvm delete thought this was 1 gate expand.
Interesting build though, specially when he's preparing for OSL.
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On July 15 2012 14:50 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 11:59 quillian wrote:
I like it, this is similar to what I've been doing with my 1 gate fe PvZ, except you can pressure sooner with zealots and faster warpgate. My current build gets a 5:30 nexus, right after the first 2 zealots and stalker chase the scouting lings and overlord away. Need to explore transitions more fully, I quite like the blink play shown here.
This also relies on the current metagame -- if zergs start getting earlier roach warrens reactively, it could just die outright. Unless that's a 5:30 3rd Nexus, that's a REALLY slow Nexus by today's standards.
...of course that's the third.
Build is gate, nexus, zealot, gas, cyber, zealot, stalker, forge, nexus
You do the same thing as the video, everything is just 30 seconds sooner, except the cannon which you delay till your poke
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On July 15 2012 16:20 -Switch- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case. the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine.
Exactly, you only expand once you scout his gasless third, so the only thing he will have to attack with is slow lings. You can have a good sized force and cannons at the third by the normal time roaches hit. That said, zergs will probably start to find earlier roach timings that shut down the poke, but allow for less droning
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On July 15 2012 23:32 quillian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 16:20 -Switch- wrote:On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case. the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine. Exactly, you only expand once you scout his gasless third, so the only thing he will have to attack with is slow lings. You can have a good sized force and cannons at the third by the normal time roaches hit. That said, zergs will probably start to find earlier roach timings that shut down the poke, but allow for less droning
Even if they get earlier roaches it won't really shut down the poke. Stalkers can still micro just fine against slow roaches.
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Wow jangbi looks really good in sc2 already.
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On July 16 2012 01:32 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2012 23:32 quillian wrote:On July 15 2012 16:20 -Switch- wrote:On July 15 2012 03:23 Zephyr.Sky wrote:On July 15 2012 03:20 Jaeger wrote:
You build 2 zealots followed by 5 stalkers off of one gate while pressuring the 3rd.
When your 3rd finishes you are 3base to 3base with equal worker count generally. One problem with that is, that if the Zerg sees so many units he will expect a timing attack, and in turn make attacking units, which once he realizes you aren't going to 2base-all-in him, he will send at your third, where he will be able to trade more cost efficiently than yourself. The whole point of the fast 3 nexus is to get on equal footing economically with the zerg. You do NOT want to force attacking units out of him in this case. the only thing he can defend that early pressure with is zerglings and unless he gets speed which most zergs don't right now you should not lose your stalkers to his slow lings and you will be fine. Exactly, you only expand once you scout his gasless third, so the only thing he will have to attack with is slow lings. You can have a good sized force and cannons at the third by the normal time roaches hit. That said, zergs will probably start to find earlier roach timings that shut down the poke, but allow for less droning Even if they get earlier roaches it won't really shut down the poke. Stalkers can still micro just fine against slow roaches.
Yeah. The only early game problem I've had is vs banelings on maps with a more open Nat/ third. Since you don't have early sentries it can be tough to stop.
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On July 16 2012 03:25 covetousrat wrote:
Wow jangbi looks really good in sc2 already.
His blink micro was mind numbingly quick. Most people do it in slices, he was doing individual stalkers SO fast.
EDIT: to contribute something other than the above:
I'm not sure how much the 2 zealots rely on timing but it might be that it doesn't time out well enough with forge first. If any mid master and above zerg are around I'd be happy to help test it.
i've been trying to learn this against the AI (i have a terrible track record of absolutely botching builds unless i practise them like 25 times) and i've been doing my standard ladder FFE, where i go 13 forge, 17 cannon, 17 nexus, 17 gate, 18 pylon, 18 gas.
DISCLAIMER: I'm bad. i'm in plat.
So to compare to a replay of myself doing it (i think i had the execution pretty spot on with this one) at 5:50 Jangbi has 28 probes, 2 zealots, 1 stalker and 1 stalker in production. I have 27 probes, 2 zealots, and a stalker 15 seconds away. I do notice however that i'm floating a chronoboost that jangbi may have used on his zealots which may bring my timing closer to his.
This seems... weird? why do i have only 1 less probe than a nexus first? i do have 100 less minerals... maybe that's the discrepancy, or perhaps 2 probes are about to pop for jangbi.
Anyways, with my super conservative FFE it seems to delay the timing by 15 seconds. but like i said this could be an extra chronoboost that i didn't use. hard to tell from a vod
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The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base).
I have an HQ vod of a cast I did for this game btw. You can read the supply better etc - http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian/b/323962026?t=1h36m
Jangbi is so good at blink :D
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On July 16 2012 10:49 oOOoOphidian wrote:The coach gave him this build and I think it is brilliant. I don't think it is too risky and it can still work against a zerg who goes for faster speed than normal (for example, muta/ling off 3 hatch gets fast speed, but this would be a good counter as you get such a fast third base). I have an HQ vod of a cast I did for this game btw. You can read the supply better etc - http://www.twitch.tv/ooooophidian/b/323962026?t=1h36mJangbi is so good at blink :D
Thanks. How do you know he got it from the coach? Is it in an interview? If so did he say anything else about the build?
p.s.
Keep up the good casting work, enjoyed skt stx last night.
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i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend.
The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust?
The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes?
i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
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On July 16 2012 16:16 OrbitalPlane wrote:
i am sceptical about that build. There are a lot of all ins that are even on 2 base hard to defend.
The zenio 3 hatch baneling bust?
The roach ling all in that just hits before warpgate finishes?
i dont see a way to defend that on 3 bases.
Both of these allins can be scouted quite easily though. You're just not going to make a 3rd if you scout anything suspicious.
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EPT
