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On August 08 2012 14:26 Omnibrad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 00:42 esaul17 wrote:
Question: When scouting a T what builds should make me abandon my intended 1 gate FE? What can I hold with Zealot Stalker Stalker Nexus, and vs what is that too greedy? Generally, any sort of attack before 6 minutes will give me pause. Proxy barracks cheese is obviously way before any expansion would go down, but that would throw off pretty much any build. Early (5:30) Marine aggression will make me think twice about whether I want to cancel my Nexus before it finishes, but if you're making Sentries then you shouldn't have a problem in most instances unless the map doesn't allow for FF defense at your natural's choke. MC's 1 Gate FE is very safe and will hold pretty much anything. I default to this build in PvT, though I scout and look for opportunities to drop my Nexus earlier if the opponent is not being aggressive. Keep in mind two things: 1) If they are building an EARLY 2nd Depot to wall in and prevent you from scouting their base, they aren't going to have the minerals to perform a standard 2 rax early pressure build. If they do let you in, you will be able to scout early gas or not and maybe even see the 2nd Rax go down. 2) If you see only one base, and aren't sure what they are doing, build a Robo immediately before or after your Nexus (depending on how comfortable you feel) and get an Obs to see what's up. Be careful of Banshees in this situation.
Early Marine aggression can be deflected very easy with one or two Stalkers, you just need to outmicro them and start hitting them near their base which actually isn't that hard.
In general I tend to 1Gate expand against every no-gas opening and if I see gas being taken I go for a 2Gate Expand.
Ideally Sentries+Stalkers+one or two Zealots can defend every small Bio push. I used to overmake Zealots and pay for it.
Against Marauder pushes, focus the Marauders with your Stalkers.
If it is a gasless expand you can go for Nexus before Cybercore. You should add the Robo before any additional Gates and get a nice and early scout to see exactly what you are up against. (Barracks count - Starport timing)
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Show nested quote +I see these Gateway expansions and keep thinking "If Zerg produces Units, Protoss would die" But the pros don't do that. Except Moon, who crushes.. It's interesting that you brought up Moon, who was a player that revolutionalized Warcraft 3 by expanding everywhere with a bunch of low HP units against a bunch of fast melee units and AoE-casting heroes. And that was in War3, which was basically the land of 1-base play. Nobody thought you could do that with Archer/Talon against Undead's Ghouls/Gargoyles and Nuke heroes, but he made it work beautifully. Granted, he was very skilled to pull it off, but that doesn't mean it was a gimmick--it worked against fantastick undead players who knew how to fight the composition and did their best to multitask harass. It means it just took a high skill threshold to execute the strategy. If something is challenging, it's still possible.
I brought up Moon because I saw him play against a Protoss that decided to go for a Gateway expansion and just died to slow Lings. Moon fllooded him off of 2 Bases and destroyed all attempts to wall in.
Also Archer+Talon was used against Orc with Demonhunter+Beastmaster.
Against Undead you went for DH Brewmaster Bears/Dryads. Which was pretty damn cool since Bears don't attack air and UD would make almost only Gargoyles 
Trust me I am a huge Moon fan and was a high level WC3 Nightelf
Your answer however has nothing to do with what I said, that Moon just kills people that Gateway Expand.
Sure you could delay your expansion and not die to the Zerglings but 1Base vs 2Base doesn't sound like a good idea either.
So this is a game I say a few days back: I believe it was ASUS ROG
I don't know who it was but Protoss was doing the standart Zealot Stalker stuff near Moons base. Moon just flooded Lings, killing the Zealot and forcing the Stalker back.
At the choke to Protoss' natural Protoss builds a Gateway a Forge and a Pylon in panic. He walled off completely against the Lings, those however took down the Forge and the Pylon, almost killing the Gate as well. Cannons were not up in time to save and Units/Workers and Cannons alone suck vs Zerglings if they get good surface. That was game. And that is how I feel every Gateway expand should play out.
You only build sentries when you have decided it's time to stop applying pressure. If you scout cheese, that means you build a sentry after your first stalker. If you scout economy, you build a sentry after you pop the Nexus down.
Then I don't have enough Forcefields to not die as I described above.
I'm cool with using feelings to make some judgment calls at a glance, but if we're going to talk about the ups and downs of specific openings, then there needs to be more than emotion invested in this. What do you want a third gas for, at that point in the game? I like going Stargate after my natural finishes, and I don't have gas problems with that. I tend to take my third gas in time for the Nexus to finish, then rally 3 probes there right away--you can get your extra gas suprisingly fast, that way.
I was propably mistaken, going for a Gateway expansion means way earlier pressure, that leads to lesser need of Tech. I was still thinking in terms of FFE Builds.
Show nested quote +Should the Zerg not get his third as soon as you get your second?
In that case you would have given him a huge advantage (2 base v 1 as compared to 3 base v 2) not even counting the fact that against a 6 Min. 3rd my natural is done when he starts his third.. If you have a Zealot and 2 stalkers across the map and he took a third, you can either go cancel it and kill the drone, or you can go up his ramp and kill a queen and some other stuff. If he keeps the third, he has slower queens and he needs to also make a bunch of lings and usually a spine in order to push you away without pulling his drones and losing a bunch of workers. Win-win for protoss. Against your 3 units, he needs at least a dozen speedlings to force you away. Not 6 or 8--a dozen. You can trade away your zealot for 4 lings and pull back with the stalkers, and be happy with that kind of indirect economical damage.
So I can actually get an Expansion, a wall off and a Zealot + 2 Stalkers without cutting Probes too much?
Either the expansion is really late, in that case what you said does not apply since I meant that Zerg gets the Expansion at the same time you take your natural, meaning no third to harras.
Or the expansion is relatively early, Zerg loses his third and just kills you since you can not afford a Forge, a Gateway, a Pylon to wall off as well as the Nexus second Pylon, Cannon and Sentries.
I still struggle to believe that you have a chance of winning against a Zerg who knows what he is doing and attacks at the right times. However with decent scouting you survive his attacks with a FFE.
BTW the FFE in theory has no real advantage, not even macrowise. The reason players developed it is because there were certain Ling/Roach+Ling timings that were close to undefendable with Gateway Expansion. (That is how I recall that whole metagame shift after having done some research at the time)
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Hi guys,
I felt like this didn't require a whole thread, so I decided to post here instead.
I'm having so much trouble fighting against Muta/Ling. Whenever I decide to go to three bases as a Protoss, the seemingly endless waves of Zerglings and Mutalisks are far too agile and quick for me to defend. Usually I scout his Spire tech going down with an Obs, and I get Blink/Cannons to defend myself. Despite all that, the Zerg always finds a way to get my Stalkers out of position and destroy my army with Zergling surrounds.
I have a replay here: http://drop.sc/235438?pass=7e67eb65-2606-45f4-883c-68f503b3525e
I think my problems were:
1. I let my Sentries die to Zerglings and therefore lost ALL my Force Fields.
2. I didn't get Weapon Upgrades after +1.
3. My Storm and High Templar were far too late.
4. My Macro still isn't good enough and needs lots of improvement.
5. I should've pushed and forced some pressure (?).
6. Horrible engagements that resulted in Zergling surrounds.
Any advice/pointers would be greatly appreciated.
P.S - I forgot to type 'gg' because I was in a hurry to post here :S I'm not a bad-mannered person!
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On August 08 2012 16:50 iremnant3847 wrote:Hi guys, I felt like this didn't require a whole thread, so I decided to post here instead. I'm having so much trouble fighting against Muta/Ling. Whenever I decide to go to three bases as a Protoss, the seemingly endless waves of Zerglings and Mutalisks are far too agile and quick for me to defend. Usually I scout his Spire tech going down with an Obs, and I get Blink/Cannons to defend myself. Despite all that, the Zerg always finds a way to get my Stalkers out of position and destroy my army with Zergling surrounds. I have a replay here: http://drop.sc/235438?pass=7e67eb65-2606-45f4-883c-68f503b3525eI think my problems were: 1. I let my Sentries die to Zerglings and therefore lost ALL my Force Fields. 2. I didn't get Weapon Upgrades after +1. 3. My Storm and High Templar were far too late. 4. My Macro still isn't good enough and needs lots of improvement. 5. I should've pushed and forced some pressure (?). 6. Horrible engagements that resulted in Zergling surrounds. Any advice/pointers would be greatly appreciated. P.S - I forgot to type 'gg' because I was in a hurry to post here :S I'm not a bad-mannered person!
Cannot watch the replay from here sadly. I am high Master on EU so maybe I can help you a little anyway.
So, first thing when you know it will be Muta Ling is to get Cannons. But you don't want them to just sit in your mineral line, they should be placed with a purpose. You want to zone the Mutas out of your base. I usually place Cannons in my main on the side opposing my natural (1 or 2 for the start later more) and near my natural on the side opposing my main.
Now, get your twilight ASAP, maybe it is in your build already that would be great! Get Blink and Templar tech.
Stop Sentry Production, you will need the Gas for something else. Do not move out of your base unless you feel safe to take a third or killed a big portion of his mutas.
+Armor Upgrades are incredible both against Zerglings and Mutas (it will reduce the bounce damage significantly) it will go from 8 3 0 to 7 2 0 I belive. If he gets attack Upgrades Armor becomes even better, so get started on those.
Now what you want as army is a couple of Zealots, as many Stalkers as you needed to defend your base 2-3 Archons and a couple of Templars. Zealots are really good vs Zerglings if you upgrade them, Storm is incredible against Zerglings and Mutas and so are Archons.
If Zerg transitions out of Mutas (you should have a Robo to scout his tech with observers) You can take a third and get colossi. If he doesn't, get a third after having 3-4 Cannons at each mineral line with a Templar and a few stalkers.
Always keep working on that macro, find out when you miss probe production and fix it, avoid supply blocks and so on.
If you go for a lot of Sentries early on, just stay defensive and take a third with cannons + complete your wall off. Do not move out and lose the sentries for no reason. Also just take the time to place perfect forcefields if the Zerglings attack your Sentries, you will safe most of them if you Forcefield them in to deny surfice area.
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Hi all kind people at teamliquid,
I'm a gold group player in China server(used to be diamond 1 year ago and just back to play). I want to ask about common build to start with to practice my macro. Please tell me whether my current build is good to practice with, and here is my current builds:
PvZ: FFE with maybe 14/15forge and 17 nexus, and then 6-7 gate robo push. I can win with this but I have several problems:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. can't deal with 6d/7d. If i can scout that in time, i usually put pylon and cannon at main base and give up forge at the 2nd base, but sometimes i fall behind on econ and sometimes i can't scout in time.
2. Hard to scout, seems i can't scout after my first probe is dead, he can see my further probes out with overlord or lings and then chase down them.
3. i can't give pressure to zerg until too late, so he can get free drones with just 2-4 lings and it's usually 100 vs 120 supplies when i push out with 7 gate robo. Though i can win in most gold-group games because of my +1/+1 and maybe out-micro the zerg with sentries, but i do want to give some earlier poke to punish his drones and an early poke will help with scouting.
PVT: 1 gate expand and then 1 robo 3 gate. Seems terran players in gold-group like to use all-ins so i rarelly macro with this build... is it a good build to start with?
PVP: 3-4 gate warp, didn't play too much PvP yet.
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Italy12248 Posts
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number 1 priority is to get storm ofc.
The Archons were only meant for an army you want to move out with.
In that case Archons are the only thing stopping Zerg from sniping a lot of Templars with Mutas, he can jast dart in, kill 2-3 Templars within a heartbeat and dart out again, you might place one storm and get off one volley of stalker shots. That will only kill 1 Muta and do very little damage to the rest.
But yeah, the Archons were meant for later in the game.
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On August 08 2012 18:09 hurric9 wrote:Hi all kind people at teamliquid, I'm a gold group player in China server(used to be diamond 1 year ago and just back to play). I want to ask about common build to start with to practice my macro. Please tell me whether my current build is good to practice with, and here is my current builds: PvZ: FFE with maybe 14/15forge and 17 nexus, and then 6-7 gate robo push. I can win with this but I have several problems: + Show Spoiler +
1. can't deal with 6d/7d. If i can scout that in time, i usually put pylon and cannon at main base and give up forge at the 2nd base, but sometimes i fall behind on econ and sometimes i can't scout in time.
2. Hard to scout, seems i can't scout after my first probe is dead, he can see my further probes out with overlord or lings and then chase down them.
3. i can't give pressure to zerg until too late, so he can get free drones with just 2-4 lings and it's usually 100 vs 120 supplies when i push out with 7 gate robo. Though i can win in most gold-group games because of my +1/+1 and maybe out-micro the zerg with sentries, but i do want to give some earlier poke to punish his drones and an early poke will help with scouting.
PVT: 1 gate expand and then 1 robo 3 gate. Seems terran players in gold-group like to use all-ins so i rarelly macro with this build... is it a good build to start with? PVP: 3-4 gate warp, didn't play too much PvP yet.
PvZ:
Early Pools are really annoying. But you should be able to see them in time to react.
Now, you scouted with the Probe that build your 9Pylon. You see a 6pool. Just get the Forge this INSTANT! Move a probe at home to your pylon asap and cancel building Probes if needed to get the 150 Minerals.
Resume Probe production, get a Pylon close to your mineral line (I prefer behind it) and a Cannon in your mineral Line, Probemicro to buy time if needed.
Probemicro: mineral walk through the Lings with all your probes, 6 Lings cannot fight against 15 Probes, he will retreat and wait for your probes to split, at that time select them and walk to the other side of your mineral line.
6Pool defended and almost no damage taken!
He will now kill your Forge and 9Pylon but thats ok.
I usually follow up with Stargate because Zerg will not have an evolution chamber ready most of the time. Also they will not want to produce extra queens. 1 VR and 2-3 Phoenix to harras, 1 VR and a couple of gateway Units to get your expansion.
PvT: If you scout anything other than 1Rax and no Gas you should go for a 2Gate expansion and add the 3rd Gate before Robo, just to be safe. You will have a bigger army and still be able to get into a macro game if given the chance.
PvP: I wish I knew a safe build 
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On August 08 2012 19:19 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 18:09 hurric9 wrote:Hi all kind people at teamliquid, I'm a gold group player in China server(used to be diamond 1 year ago and just back to play). I want to ask about common build to start with to practice my macro. Please tell me whether my current build is good to practice with, and here is my current builds: PvZ: FFE with maybe 14/15forge and 17 nexus, and then 6-7 gate robo push. I can win with this but I have several problems: + Show Spoiler +
1. can't deal with 6d/7d. If i can scout that in time, i usually put pylon and cannon at main base and give up forge at the 2nd base, but sometimes i fall behind on econ and sometimes i can't scout in time.
2. Hard to scout, seems i can't scout after my first probe is dead, he can see my further probes out with overlord or lings and then chase down them.
3. i can't give pressure to zerg until too late, so he can get free drones with just 2-4 lings and it's usually 100 vs 120 supplies when i push out with 7 gate robo. Though i can win in most gold-group games because of my +1/+1 and maybe out-micro the zerg with sentries, but i do want to give some earlier poke to punish his drones and an early poke will help with scouting.
PVT: 1 gate expand and then 1 robo 3 gate. Seems terran players in gold-group like to use all-ins so i rarelly macro with this build... is it a good build to start with? PVP: 3-4 gate warp, didn't play too much PvP yet. PvZ: Early Pools are really annoying. But you should be able to see them in time to react. Now, you scouted with the Probe that build your 9Pylon. You see a 6pool. Just get the Forge this INSTANT! Move a probe at home to your pylon asap and cancel building Probes if needed to get the 150 Minerals. Resume Probe production, get a Pylon close to your mineral line (I prefer behind it) and a Cannon in your mineral Line, Probemicro to buy time if needed. Probemicro: mineral walk through the Lings with all your probes, 6 Lings cannot fight against 15 Probes, he will retreat and wait for your probes to split, at that time select them and walk to the other side of your mineral line. 6Pool defended and almost no damage taken! He will now kill your Forge and 9Pylon but thats ok. I usually follow up with Stargate because Zerg will not have an evolution chamber ready most of the time. Also they will not want to produce extra queens. 1 VR and 2-3 Phoenix to harras, 1 VR and a couple of gateway Units to get your expansion. PvT: If you scout anything other than 1Rax and no Gas you should go for a 2Gate expansion and add the 3rd Gate before Robo, just to be safe. You will have a bigger army and still be able to get into a macro game if given the chance. PvP: I wish I knew a safe build
Thanks a lot for the help on early pools and terran all-ins, i still want to know how to give some pressures after FFE, is there a guide or build for this? other my current the 7 gate robo all-in. Cause I want my build to be constantly giving oout pressure and is able to move to 3 bases game to improve my macro, other than a all-in ish one, thanks.
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On August 08 2012 19:40 hurric9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2012 19:19 rEalGuapo wrote:On August 08 2012 18:09 hurric9 wrote:Hi all kind people at teamliquid, I'm a gold group player in China server(used to be diamond 1 year ago and just back to play). I want to ask about common build to start with to practice my macro. Please tell me whether my current build is good to practice with, and here is my current builds: PvZ: FFE with maybe 14/15forge and 17 nexus, and then 6-7 gate robo push. I can win with this but I have several problems: + Show Spoiler +
1. can't deal with 6d/7d. If i can scout that in time, i usually put pylon and cannon at main base and give up forge at the 2nd base, but sometimes i fall behind on econ and sometimes i can't scout in time.
2. Hard to scout, seems i can't scout after my first probe is dead, he can see my further probes out with overlord or lings and then chase down them.
3. i can't give pressure to zerg until too late, so he can get free drones with just 2-4 lings and it's usually 100 vs 120 supplies when i push out with 7 gate robo. Though i can win in most gold-group games because of my +1/+1 and maybe out-micro the zerg with sentries, but i do want to give some earlier poke to punish his drones and an early poke will help with scouting.
PVT: 1 gate expand and then 1 robo 3 gate. Seems terran players in gold-group like to use all-ins so i rarelly macro with this build... is it a good build to start with? PVP: 3-4 gate warp, didn't play too much PvP yet. PvZ: Early Pools are really annoying. But you should be able to see them in time to react. Now, you scouted with the Probe that build your 9Pylon. You see a 6pool. Just get the Forge this INSTANT! Move a probe at home to your pylon asap and cancel building Probes if needed to get the 150 Minerals. Resume Probe production, get a Pylon close to your mineral line (I prefer behind it) and a Cannon in your mineral Line, Probemicro to buy time if needed. Probemicro: mineral walk through the Lings with all your probes, 6 Lings cannot fight against 15 Probes, he will retreat and wait for your probes to split, at that time select them and walk to the other side of your mineral line. 6Pool defended and almost no damage taken! He will now kill your Forge and 9Pylon but thats ok. I usually follow up with Stargate because Zerg will not have an evolution chamber ready most of the time. Also they will not want to produce extra queens. 1 VR and 2-3 Phoenix to harras, 1 VR and a couple of gateway Units to get your expansion. PvT: If you scout anything other than 1Rax and no Gas you should go for a 2Gate expansion and add the 3rd Gate before Robo, just to be safe. You will have a bigger army and still be able to get into a macro game if given the chance. PvP: I wish I knew a safe build Thanks a lot for the help on early pools and terran all-ins, i still want to know how to give some pressures after FFE, is there a guide or build for this? other my current the 7 gate robo all-in. Cause I want my build to be constantly giving oout pressure and is able to move to 3 bases game to improve my macro, other than a all-in ish one, thanks.
You can always Chronoboost Gateway Research and hit with 4-5 Gates +1 Zealots, delay the Gases at your natural a little and hit around 8 minutes. Try to pay attention to your base, the Zealots will not require a lot of micro. You should really focus on macroing during that attack!
Build the Gateways a little before Gateway research is halfway done, build Zealots off of your first Gateway, without Chrono, move out with 2-3 Zealots and a Probe before WG Research is done to get a proxy pylon if you haven't already.
I have no idea if there is a guide for it and I won't search, you could just do that yourself.
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Hello fellow Protosses. I just recently played a PvT on Shakuras Pleateau and just barely won. I'm a top diamond Protoss and I'd like to get some feedback on what I could have done better.
http://drop.sc/235511
1. I never realized throughout the whole game he had the secret third he took at around the 4~5 minute mark. Was it appropriate for me to take my third? I was planning to do a 7 gate all-in, but I noticed he scanned and went for a risky move; taking my third nexus near the watchtower. Would he have been able to punish me if he had not gone for that secret third and decided to stick on two bases?
2. I made a terrible engagement in the middle of the map where I lost basically everything, and the only saving grace that kept me alive for that time were the force fields that block off his entire army. Should I have engaged that at all? Or was my positioning okay? I'm still struggling to learn on how to better position my army.
3. Just an observartion for myself I noticed he made a ghost academy after seeing my initial archons. However, he never followed up with any ghosts. I believe this is what was the nail in the coffin for him as he could have EMPed my zealots and templar in the last engagement. Any thoughts if he could have repelled it if he even had ghosts?
4. Just a question in general. How do you guys remember to keep using chronoboost on your upgrades? I usually do it once, and if I'm lucky twice on upgrading one weapon/armor level, but I forget afterwards. Is this common amongst diamonds or masters even?
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can someone give me a build for PvT?
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Hello everyone!
I'm kinda new to the game and the community. I watch a lot of streaming, Day9 dailys, all that stuff, but I can't get the information I'm looking for and I feel it is very important. I understand that scouting is utterly important and that when you scout propretly, it's like playing rock-paper-scisors knowing what your opponent is going to play.
With that said, I would love to know what I'm looking for and then what to do with that information applied concretly into a strategy. I've been looking around a bit online and there's guides and tutorials but nothing that regroups all of the information I would like. I feel there isn't a good 101 guide that simply says stuff like: «PvT; You see X, you go for Y» -ish. I understand it's not that simple, but I think simple pointers for bronze-silver players like me would be a great addon for the newer community (if I can say so).
Is there something like that avaiable that I have not seen? Something that would look like a decision tree, to help us get general directions about what to do with the scouting information?
Thank you very much TL community!
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QUOTE]On August 09 2012 04:23 Unbrekableangel wrote:
Hello everyone!
I'm kinda new to the game and the community. I watch a lot of streaming, Day9 dailys, all that stuff, but I can't get the information I'm looking for and I feel it is very important. I understand that scouting is utterly important and that when you scout propretly, it's like playing rock-paper-scisors knowing what your opponent is going to play.
With that said, I would love to know what I'm looking for and then what to do with that information applied concretly into a strategy. I've been looking around a bit online and there's guides and tutorials but nothing that regroups all of the information I would like. I feel there isn't a good 101 guide that simply says stuff like: «PvT; You see X, you go for Y» -ish. I understand it's not that simple, but I think simple pointers for bronze-silver players like me would be a great addon for the newer community (if I can say so).
Is there something like that avaiable that I have not seen? Something that would look like a decision tree, to help us get general directions about what to do with the scouting information?
Thank you very much TL community![/QUOTE]
Hey! New to TL too and I think you will find most of what you're looking for in these two guide threads: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330787 - [G] Bronze to Masters, Improving Mechanics
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202400 - [G] WoL Openings/Timings
I am a diamond random/protoss player and I think a few basic tenets are crucial at the low levels of play. On 4 player maps it is helpful to scout with your probe that builds the pylon on 9. Take the early game lull in activity to shift-command move him to the 3 unscouted bases. On 2 player maps unless you are expecting cheese, you can usually use the probe that builds the 12/13 food gateway at your ramp AWAY from your natural minerals (to allow for slightly faster probe transfer) to scout the only position. A 1gate robo build allows you to get an early observer scout to see what your opponent is up to, and is a common opening at the pro level as it banks up minerals to allow for a safe early expansion before throwing down 2 additional gateways. In your case, I would recommend a 3gate robo build, making sure to continuously build probes while gearing up for a powerful push before 10 minutes consisting of early sentries to bank energy, stalkers, and immortals. As you move out, build a nexus at your natural and bring the probe along to build proxy pylons to warp in army units during your attack. This is a safe build that allows you to focus on scouting and macro for the first ~10 minutes of the game while getting practice using forcefields with ranged units.
If you are struggling with unit composition to counter an opponent's army, it would be helpful to play the single player Protoss challenge maps using the "Help" tab at the top of the screen to learn the hard counters and work on your control utilizing these units. Last few pointers: be tight with your cyber core timing at 16/17 food, don't be afraid to produce out of gateways before warp gate is finished, don't be afraid to throw down early pylons because the alternative of being supply blocked is MUCH worse, and try to keep your scouting probe alive (I pick up minerals and have my scouting probe on ctrl group 2 so I can quickly press 2-c to return minerals and "clip" through units on a mineral walk back to your base as soon as I hear "your probes are under attack!") because it is your easiest source of information to scout gas, extra production facilities, or a fast expand early in the game before your first stalker or observer is able to make its way across the map to scout your opponent. As my first post containing content, I hope you read this and find it helpful! GL HF
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Hey Guys,
Need some advice on placing proxy pylons in the early to mid game. By early I mean right when warp gate finishes and you're looking to harass the zerg early 3rd with some zealot play. Sometimes I get lucky and zerg either 1) doesn't scout enough or 2) I get lucky and a zealot picks off the scouting ling at just the right time. But I would think against better players they will send lings all over the map and scout for them as well as micro lings better ie not fight a zeal 1v1. What's a good spot to place them?
Should I place a bunch? Seems like a risky possible waste of resources so early in the game. I do normally get out a quick zealot and move him around the map trying to pick off stray lings. But if I want my proxy across the map that seems like too much ground for a zeal to cover.
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On August 09 2012 11:12 hocash wrote:
Hey Guys,
Need some advice on placing proxy pylons in the early to mid game. By early I mean right when warp gate finishes and you're looking to harass the zerg early 3rd with some zealot play. Sometimes I get lucky and zerg either 1) doesn't scout enough or 2) I get lucky and a zealot picks off the scouting ling at just the right time. But I would think against better players they will send lings all over the map and scout for them as well as micro lings better ie not fight a zeal 1v1. What's a good spot to place them?
Should I place a bunch? Seems like a risky possible waste of resources so early in the game. I do normally get out a quick zealot and move him around the map trying to pick off stray lings. But if I want my proxy across the map that seems like too much ground for a zeal to cover.
You should have a couple of gateway units at minimum when you move out to place your proxy pylon. The safest way to put down the proxy pylon is with your units between the pylon and his base. E.g. on Ohana, if you are going to pressure the 3rd, as you move your units in that direction, plant the pylon on the ledge by the rocks on the ramp to his 4th, so that your attack directly covers the pylon. Most pro players plant them in advance a bit so you can warp in as soon as the units build in your base arrive, but this can be risky.
I wouldn't recommend more than one or two proxy pylons, considering if you don't kill him instantly then you will have to sacrifice them all when you retreat after your pressure.
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On August 08 2012 16:39 rEalGuapo wrote:I brought up Moon because I saw him play against a Protoss that decided to go for a Gateway expansion and just died to slow Lings. Moon fllooded him off of 2 Bases and destroyed all attempts to wall in. Also Archer+Talon was used against Orc with Demonhunter+Beastmaster. Against Undead you went for DH Brewmaster Bears/Dryads. Which was pretty damn cool since Bears don't attack air and UD would make almost only Gargoyles
Well, that was the standard for elf vs orc, but I was talking about a specific game Moon played against Undead on TM where he did Archer talon and there was serious frost nova going on, but he fought through it and crushed with a bunch of split groups of archer/talon that gave him map control. Everyone knew about 2 wind talons vs orc, but it was siiiiiick to see him do it against ud. That's kind of how I feel about 13 gate. We know it works in the other 2 match-ups, but it takes thinking about the game a bit differently to make it work in the third.
Trust me I am a huge Moon fan and was a high level WC3 Nightelf
<3<3<3 I played NE for a long time before eventually playing UD in the last couple of years of War3, so I'm a huge fan of moon, too.
Your answer however has nothing to do with what I said, that Moon just kills people that Gateway Expand.
Sure you could delay your expansion and not die to the Zerglings but 1Base vs 2Base doesn't sound like a good idea either.
So this is a game I say a few days back: I believe it was ASUS ROG
I don't know who it was but Protoss was doing the standart Zealot Stalker stuff near Moons base. Moon just flooded Lings, killing the Zealot and forcing the Stalker back.
At the choke to Protoss' natural Protoss builds a Gateway a Forge and a Pylon in panic. He walled off completely against the Lings, those however took down the Forge and the Pylon, almost killing the Gate as well. Cannons were not up in time to save and Units/Workers and Cannons alone suck vs Zerglings if they get good surface. That was game. And that is how I feel every Gateway expand should play out.
I think I need to see the VOD, because I have a hunch that the protoss probably screwed up against Moon. Basically all forms of aggression can be stopped wtih 13 gate 15 gas, so long as you are aware they're coming and you prepare for them (and being aware is part of preparation, often). Were they slow lings? Because you can do different types of wall-offs depending on what you expect. For example, put a pylon on the low ground adjacent to your ramp (but not part of the wall-off itself), then put a 150 mineral building down in such a manner that it's next to the ramp and you can hold position a Zealot on the base of the ramp to wall it off from a mass slow ling rush. If they hit before cannons and you went right into Forge on the low ground, you still should be able to hold because you have Zealot/Stalker at that point, with either a Sentry or second stalker building (either one helps; stalkers are fine vs slow lings if you're careful).
Should the Zerg not get his third as soon as you get your second?
In that case you would have given him a huge advantage (2 base v 1 as compared to 3 base v 2) not even counting the fact that against a 6 Min. 3rd my natural is done when he starts his third..
You can go take a fast third yourself, or use tech to kill/cancel his third, or use multipronged aggression since he has to defend 3 bases at once. Understand that his worker count barely passes you about when his natural is fully saturated, so you are honestly going to have a better economy for the majority of the early game, and then it's even because you both saturate your naturals fully about simultaneously. This is assuming you pressure, he builds just enough to stop it and then goes back to droning while you go home with your stalkers and play a macro game. That's what you were talking about, though...right?
So I can actually get an Expansion, a wall off and a Zealot + 2 Stalkers without cutting Probes too much?
Yes. You don't have to take any shit from zerg players, and you shouldn't.
I still struggle to believe that you have a chance of winning against a Zerg who knows what he is doing and attacks at the right times. However with decent scouting you survive his attacks with a FFE.
BTW the FFE in theory has no real advantage, not even macrowise. The reason players developed it is because there were certain Ling/Roach+Ling timings that were close to undefendable with Gateway Expansion. (That is how I recall that whole metagame shift after having done some research at the time)
People also were missing easy forcefields and messing up hold position on a Zealot at the GSL level, in that era. How many games of PvT were lost due to the Terran 2raxing and the Protoss being up his ramp, but missing one forcefield?
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Hi guys, Diamond Z here and I am hitting a massive wall right now due to several reasons.
Before I gave up Z, I tried out Toss a few games in my diamond account and I find Toss's macro mechanic is a lot more comfortable for me and more options to do harassment and scouting, winning maybe 4 games out of 6. (around high plat level).
I haven't really learn any proper build order for 2 bases and my main goal when I have 2 bases up is to get 2 robo (for obs and colossus/immortal production) 5 gateways disgarding my opening for all matchup
Overall game plan is:
scout, if possible, FE and turtle/macro hard without pressuring the opponent on 2 bases. Drop a third asap depending on what my obs scouted.
My main concern is when should I drop the forge.
Too early will slow down my colossus count (more specifically is the range upgrade and double colossus really eats up the resources earlier on)
Too late of cause will just mean any timing push from terran dealing much more damage than it could have been.
So I am wondering if anyone still doing this 5 gate 2 robo mid game can help me out?
Currently I only want to do 5 gate 2 robo mid game because it is a midgame that really can be used through all the matchups and quite immune to any cloak banshee etc play.
Or if anyone think it is just extremely outdated and has a good mid game plan for all matchup, I would be very happy to listen and try it out.
Thanks
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On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying?
My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game.
The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count.
Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech.
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EPT
