EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 301
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On August 06 2012 07:57 Sated wrote: I'm not joking: http://drop.sc/234447 I feel like there has to be a better way of doing it than this, though. I need to go through BabyKnight's replay packs and find some examples of him doing it, he does it a lot. just reading the chat log -- you went 2 gate. What I feel i normally face is 1 gate twilight robo gate gate I believe. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13414 Posts
The 3 rax medivacs isn't too bad its the 5 barracks with reactored starport before third that really gives me a hard time. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 06 2012 13:58 ZeromuS wrote: Can anyone point me in the direction of a strong and solid opening in PvT? I've been trying the creator prime style but been having a very hard time against medivac timings. The 3 rax medivacs isn't too bad its the 5 barracks with reactored starport before third that really gives me a hard time. What about it gives you a hard time? If you're not having problems with 3 rax into port into cc, then the 3 rax into port into 5 rax shouldn't give you any problems as long as you can get your first colossi out. If you're having trouble with the Creator mid game, I suggest the Startale Protoss standard mid game that goes like: robo + 3 gates into forge into twilight into 5 gates into templar archives into 7 gates. There's no guide for it currently, but it's a nice solid, standard style. | ||
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zcki
Norway58 Posts
Scouting gets denied by speedlings. I feel like I cause the aggression myself by blocking natural/third with probe or a pylon, but I can't really let them power up freely either. The last 7/10 games vZ were baneling busts of which I only won one. Please help! | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On August 06 2012 19:42 zcki wrote: Recently I've started encountering a lot of zergs going for quick baneling bust w/ ling speed. It seems impossible to hold it off, even if I do hold I'm left with ~20 probes and a missing forge / cyber core / gateway with supply block. Even if I have 2+ cannons down there's just a runby to the main, and I really don't feel like investing in pylon + cannon in the main that early because having the wall powered seems more important. I only have 1-2 sentries when the bust hits and I seem to have the probe just a few hex too far to rewall. Is rewalling really the only thing I can do? Should I have one probe ready to rewall? I feel really lost against this. Scouting gets denied by speedlings. I feel like I cause the aggression myself by blocking natural/third with probe or a pylon, but I can't really let them power up freely either. The last 7/10 games vZ were baneling busts of which I only won one. Please help! Forcefield and stall until you can get more 3-4 cannons and more sentries up. If he opens speed, always make a second cannon as he will probably be aggressive and his economy is delayed anyway. Here's a replay of me holding it, even with a fucked up simcity. The guy was hilariously terrible but somehow made it into master's, so i guess it should be a decent example for you. http://drop.sc/234652 edit: oh also, a nice timing to know is that a speedling expand should make a second hatch at around 4 ish minutes and a a third at 6 ish. If you don't see one of the two, expect 2base play, either a roach or baneling allin, mutas, or some sort of nydus+hydra allin. | ||
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LGStarcraft
United States40 Posts
On August 06 2012 19:42 zcki wrote: Recently I've started encountering a lot of zergs going for quick baneling bust w/ ling speed. It seems impossible to hold it off, even if I do hold I'm left with ~20 probes and a missing forge / cyber core / gateway with supply block. Even if I have 2+ cannons down there's just a runby to the main, and I really don't feel like investing in pylon + cannon in the main that early because having the wall powered seems more important. I only have 1-2 sentries when the bust hits and I seem to have the probe just a few hex too far to rewall. Is rewalling really the only thing I can do? Should I have one probe ready to rewall? I feel really lost against this. Scouting gets denied by speedlings. I feel like I cause the aggression myself by blocking natural/third with probe or a pylon, but I can't really let them power up freely either. The last 7/10 games vZ were baneling busts of which I only won one. Please help! No matter what, a trade-off of banelings for a gateway/forge/cybernetics will always be in your favor, cost-wise. If he's going to go on busting through these buildings, he's probably all-in. All you have to do is hold this off, which is relatively easy to do. You are doing it right by putting heavy buildings in the front and cannons in the back. What you are missing are sentries. Always have some sort of forward scout to see the incoming zerg force so you will have time to react with the sentries. Place the FF's strategically to force an unfavorable bust with the banes, and when the lings attempt to run through the hole, drop another FF to cut the lings into a manageable chunk. Pick the army apart until the zerg decides to retreat. Macro up for your preferred 2-base all-in, and A-move your way to victory. | ||
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Bahamuth
134 Posts
On August 06 2012 13:58 ZeromuS wrote: Can anyone point me in the direction of a strong and solid opening in PvT? I've been trying the creator prime style but been having a very hard time against medivac timings. The 3 rax medivacs isn't too bad its the 5 barracks with reactored starport before third that really gives me a hard time. You could maybe take a look at what MaNa was doing at Asus ROG. He also does double upgrades, but gets the Robo Bay much earlier to get Colossi out fast. He delays Twilight to get Colossi out, so it's a tradeoff. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13414 Posts
On August 06 2012 14:04 NrGmonk wrote: What about it gives you a hard time? If you're not having problems with 3 rax into port into cc, then the 3 rax into port into 5 rax shouldn't give you any problems as long as you can get your first colossi out. If you're having trouble with the Creator mid game, I suggest the Startale Protoss standard mid game that goes like: robo + 3 gates into forge into twilight into 5 gates into templar archives into 7 gates. There's no guide for it currently, but it's a nice solid, standard style. I do like the startale Protoss players. Thanks, I'll give it a try. Watching Parting vs sC right now so I am watching Parting do it right now. | ||
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ThirdDegree
United States329 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:27 ThirdDegree wrote: I have been playing around with the forgeless fast expand PvZ and going for a quick 2 base 4gate to try to take out the third. I only do it on larger maps where I feel safer from quick all ins. Has anyone else done this? Any good build orders? I just sort of wing it when I play I like to open with a 1gate stalker pressure into Nexus build. It's flexible; you can skip/cancel a zealot if you're not afraid of a 6pool, play defense if you scout 14 gas by the zerg, or go up to 2 gates/do a 4gate of 5gate nexus cancel against a fast 3hatch. (3 chronos on probes) 9 Pylon (by your nexus so you can pull probes to defend it vs 6-8 pool) 13 Gate-->scout 15 Gas 16 Pylon (high ground again; safer against early pools) 18 Core Zealot when money allows (don't cut probes) Stalkers when Core finishes; boost gateway constantly Third pylon on the low ground to start a wall-off, when it's appropriate for dodging supply block I usually put 3 on gas because if you scout some kind of gas opening, you can make a sentry after the first stalker or you can immediately go into some other tech path. However, if you put 2 on gas you get 100 gas and then pull them off when the core finishes, so you can immediately go into stalker+WG research but also have more mineral harvesting if you're looking to just go right into Nexus after the first stalker, and then from there you decide when you want them back on gas. But with 3 on gas, I like to go Zealot--Stalker--Stalker and either take my Nexus right then or wait for a third stalker before taking it. After I take my Nexus, I switch over to Sentry production and start walling off the natural. The goal is to go out there and make sure your opponent isn't taking a third. If he is, you can almost always kill a queen or two, drones, and his lings. If he isn't, you want him to spend more money on defense and take a delayed third. Sometimes the second option means you're going to force so many units that he's all-in, but you should be safe from his counterattack timings if you're actively paying attention with your pressure units and you build a wall-off with a sentry at home. Either way you'll be ahead in tech, but you often are also ahead in workers/production by the time you pull back. The time to pull back is dependent on your opponent's gas timing. If you can see the extractor timing, you can do the math from there. If you can't, you have to guess when he got gas and plan accordingly. Either way, you want to be walking back home about 30 seconds before speed finishes, on most maps. If you do that, you usually come home with all of your stalkers alive, which means your army will be decent should he choose to try to bust your natural. I used to go into a 4gate to take out his third, as well--but I think it's a bad idea to do this because you could just run into a ton of speedlings on the map and get wrecked...or he decides to tech on 2 bases and you're behind in tech with an even base count. I personally think that it's a stronger transition to go into some kind of tech path right away, instead. I usually do Stargate because Phoenixes are the #1 reason that I play Protoss, but sometimes I instead go double forge into Twilight like it's PvT because Chargelots are really good in even base situations if you keep them 1 or 2 upgrades ahead of the zerg. Robo into third+Warp Prism play isn't exactly bad either...basically, the whole point of the build is to use pressure and build units instead of using a Forge, to deal with the early pools. If the zerg goes gas/pool, you can see the gas timing on 2player maps in time to wall off your natural. As soon as I see this, I turn my units back around and don't even bother trying to pressure, and I cancel my second stalker for a sentry. The point is to wall off quickly and have a couple forcefields in the bank to deal with a bust. Try not to use pylons for the wall.... | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13414 Posts
On August 06 2012 14:04 NrGmonk wrote: What about it gives you a hard time? If you're not having problems with 3 rax into port into cc, then the 3 rax into port into 5 rax shouldn't give you any problems as long as you can get your first colossi out. If you're having trouble with the Creator mid game, I suggest the Startale Protoss standard mid game that goes like: robo + 3 gates into forge into twilight into 5 gates into templar archives into 7 gates. There's no guide for it currently, but it's a nice solid, standard style. Are there any replays out there excluding the GOM vods? I would prefer to watch reps over vods anyday  | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 07 2012 14:57 ZeromuS wrote: Are there any replays out there excluding the GOM vods? I would prefer to watch reps over vods anyday There a recent replay of him on the last page of my thread. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13414 Posts
On August 07 2012 15:05 NrGmonk wrote: There a recent replay of him on the last page of my thread. I meant any replays of the startale style? I see that there are no guides so I was wondering if you do that style opening or if there is a replay resource you know of I can use to learn from reps regarding his build. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 07 2012 15:08 ZeromuS wrote: I meant any replays of the startale style? I see that there are no guides so I was wondering if you do that style opening or if there is a replay resource you know of I can use to learn from reps regarding his build. I would try Parting/Squirtle's games from Red Bull Battlegrounds or their games from ESV. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On August 07 2012 15:08 ZeromuS wrote: I meant any replays of the startale style? I see that there are no guides so I was wondering if you do that style opening or if there is a replay resource you know of I can use to learn from reps regarding his build. http://scdojo.tumblr.com/ If you scroll down a ways, Artosis gives a build order for the five gate variation of the startale build. It's the closest thing to a guide I've found. If there are some good replays of follow ups to this style, I'd love to see them. ^^ edit: By "down a ways" I obviously meant the second post >.> <.< | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13414 Posts
On August 07 2012 15:11 NrGmonk wrote: I would try Parting/Squirtle's games from Red Bull Battlegrounds or their games from ESV. ok ty ty I will look into the redbull replays. The ESV replays i dont have access to right now since I didnt pay for the premium on esv stream | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On August 05 2011 15:11 Cubbieblue66 wrote: Can somebody give me a good build order for a forge fast expand versus Zerg? The one on Liquipedia has been a decent enough starting point for me, but I don't know how to go from there... I tend to favor gateway-heavy armies, maybe mixing in a couple immortals generally. Try Jangbi's 1 gt pressure into fast 3rd or the like, the 1 push/pressure before 9 min mark doesn't seem to work anymore vs high plats and up unless its a 2 base all-in. I lose a lot in PvZ before, but after learning opening and similar builds, my PvZ is in much better shape now  | ||
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