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United States8477 Posts
On August 09 2012 14:40 GoodNewsJim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying? My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game. The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count. Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech.
This is just wrong. Templar first PvT is perfectly fine, something that Parting consistently uses.
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On August 01 2012 15:49 Roadog wrote:
If I open with 3 Stalker PvP on, say, Ohana, how do I react if I find that the opponent is turtling behind sentry/immortal on 1 base?
I thought immortal/3gate was the safest opening for P and was hard to beat.
One dude did this vs me: All zealots/archons.
Immortals/stalker/sentry/zealots don't have any advantage vs all zealot/archons. In fact archons will stomp down ff.
Opening zealot/archon blindly though can means you'll lose to DT because you made no obs.
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On August 09 2012 14:49 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 14:40 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying? My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game. The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count. Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech. This is just wrong. Templar first PvT is perfectly fine, something that Parting consistently uses.
Maybe GM Protosses can get it to fly, but in Diamond/Master, my friend wins his matches the most convincingly when he uses the timing push vs HT first. You can't tell me what I see with my own eyes is wrong. Maybe my friend's opponents aren't GM and that could be the case. But watching it, Terran has a great advantage vs Protoss that goes HT first if they strike just before storm researches. P has no AOE to deal with mass marine. I think some people could see how this makes sense, and isn't "just wrong"
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On August 09 2012 15:13 GoodNewsJim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 14:49 NrGmonk wrote:On August 09 2012 14:40 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying? My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game. The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count. Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech. This is just wrong. Templar first PvT is perfectly fine, something that Parting consistently uses. Maybe GM Protosses can get it to fly, but in Diamond/Master, my friend wins his matches the most convincingly when he uses the timing push vs HT first. You can't tell me what I see with my own eyes is wrong. Maybe my friend's opponents aren't GM and that could be the case. But watching it, Terran has a great advantage vs Protoss that goes HT first if they strike just before storm researches. P has no AOE to deal with mass marine. I think some people could see how this makes sense, and isn't "just wrong"
Post replays of this push that your friend does, if you're going to keep talking about it. If GM Protosses are making Storm work without Colossi, then they're doings something better than your friend's opponents. Maybe it's positioning. Maybe they're getting upgrades and chargelots or blink (depending on the map and which is better against drops) and then getting storm on 3 bases. Or maybe, just maybe, they have better macro to deal with a terran attack at a point when every single units counts.
There's a reason why GMs can make some things work, and other players can't. Some strategies and tactics require a skill threshold. Guess what? If a GM can pull it off and a Diamond player can't, it's probably not a flaw in the strategy.
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On August 09 2012 15:21 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 15:13 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 09 2012 14:49 NrGmonk wrote:On August 09 2012 14:40 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying? My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game. The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count. Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech. This is just wrong. Templar first PvT is perfectly fine, something that Parting consistently uses. Maybe GM Protosses can get it to fly, but in Diamond/Master, my friend wins his matches the most convincingly when he uses the timing push vs HT first. You can't tell me what I see with my own eyes is wrong. Maybe my friend's opponents aren't GM and that could be the case. But watching it, Terran has a great advantage vs Protoss that goes HT first if they strike just before storm researches. P has no AOE to deal with mass marine. I think some people could see how this makes sense, and isn't "just wrong" Post replays of this push that your friend does, if you're going to keep talking about it. If GM Protosses are making Storm work without Colossi, then they're doings something better than your friend's opponents. Maybe it's positioning. Maybe they're getting upgrades and chargelots or blink (depending on the map and which is better against drops) and then getting storm on 3 bases. Or maybe, just maybe, they have better macro to deal with a terran attack at a point when every single units counts. There's a reason why GMs can make some things work, and other players can't. Some strategies and tactics require a skill threshold. Guess what? If a GM can pull it off and a Diamond player can't, it's probably not a flaw in the strategy.
I would even go further, if a GM Protoss can make it work against a GM Terran, a Diamond Porotss can make it work against Diamond Terran.
But you said your friend was Masters and then got hacked and dropped down to diamond?
Maybe the opponents just got a lot worse than before and that makes it easy for him to win?
Also, I don't like the Templar opening, a good Terran will still deflect any attacks since stimmed Bio is so incredible mobile your Storms won't do a lot of damage. You may force Ghosts a bit earlier but I'd rather force Vikings since more Vikings means less Medivacs.
Also, with armor upgrades and Sentries, Zealots are incredibly strong against Marines, couple that with one or two Archons and you have your way to defend against Marines.
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Italy12248 Posts
On August 09 2012 15:13 GoodNewsJim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 14:49 NrGmonk wrote:On August 09 2012 14:40 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying? My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game. The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count. Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech. This is just wrong. Templar first PvT is perfectly fine, something that Parting consistently uses. Maybe GM Protosses can get it to fly, but in Diamond/Master, my friend wins his matches the most convincingly when he uses the timing push vs HT first. You can't tell me what I see with my own eyes is wrong. Maybe my friend's opponents aren't GM and that could be the case. But watching it, Terran has a great advantage vs Protoss that goes HT first if they strike just before storm researches. P has no AOE to deal with mass marine. I think some people could see how this makes sense, and isn't "just wrong"
I die all the time vs Medivac pushes when i go storm first in PvT in Master's, and each and every time it's because i fuck up my engagements, not because my build can't hold it.
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On August 09 2012 16:09 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 15:13 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 09 2012 14:49 NrGmonk wrote:On August 09 2012 14:40 GoodNewsJim wrote:On August 05 2012 04:39 Aynophae wrote:
What do you tosses think about colossi-less PvT? I use to get up to 3 colossi and then transition into HT, but is it possible to be safe going straight to HT+storm? I think it may be very vulnerable to 10-12 minute attacks, is it worth trying? My diamond Terran friend(used to be masters until hacked) has a timing push designed to kill this build. You need colo to slow the stim timing push of T. If you want to cheat and think your opponent Terran isn't aware of this, you can go straight to zealot/templar play which is strong end game. The reason you need colo is the AOE is the only good way to deal with marines when they get enmass. Storm works, but the timing hits right around before when storm can be researched. The reason the timing works so well is that it goes for players who save their gas for tech and have a low sentry count. Just be aware there is a timing TVP that punishes asap HT tech. This is just wrong. Templar first PvT is perfectly fine, something that Parting consistently uses. Maybe GM Protosses can get it to fly, but in Diamond/Master, my friend wins his matches the most convincingly when he uses the timing push vs HT first. You can't tell me what I see with my own eyes is wrong. Maybe my friend's opponents aren't GM and that could be the case. But watching it, Terran has a great advantage vs Protoss that goes HT first if they strike just before storm researches. P has no AOE to deal with mass marine. I think some people could see how this makes sense, and isn't "just wrong" I die all the time vs Medivac pushes when i go storm first in PvT in Master's, and each and every time it's because i fuck up my engagements, not because my build can't hold it.
This. It can be easy to fuck up against these timings, and can result in some pretty easy losses if u go templar first. But it is not unholdable by any means at all, u just gotta really well.
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Here is me getting wrecked by a reactor hellion/marauder/scv allin. Main mistakes I see are not spotting the push until it's killing my units and not microing when he walks up my ramp (lag spike). I can see myself possibly holding the main without that lag and with slightly quicker reaction/warpins but how can I save my natural? The only pro replay/vod that I can think of where Protoss holds this push is MC vs Bomber on Ohana (at Red Bull I think), but it was on a 2 FF natural ramp and Bomber didn't pull nearly as many SCVs.
Run-through of my thinking process that game (and why I didn't react optimally). Quick wall-off so I suspect gasless FE since you need to cut SCVs to do it with gas. ZS poke sees there's no expansion on the low ground but there's a bunker so I'm almost certain it's some sort of factory play. I keep a few units from my first warpin in my main in case it's a hellion drop (although my positioning could be a lot better if it actually was a hellion drop). I didn't want to keep a stalker out on the map because it would help a lot against a hellion drop, plus without a tower by his base, if he goes hellions he can chase down the stalker and it dies for nothing. By the time I realize a drop isn't coming and start to think it's a 1/1/1 a ton of units are killing my dudes and it goes downhill pretty quick after I lose three units for free.
Should I just sac the natural because he pulled so many SCVs? If not, any tips on how to save it?
http://drop.sc/235727
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What is the best way to counter a 1/1/1 these days? I do scout it when it is comming but i always seem to screw it up. Might have something to do with my combat.
The buildorder i use against it is a 1gate expand. After nexus robo and 2x gate. Then i get the time to create about 3 immortals and some zealots / stalkers but it just doesn't seem to work (i don't blame the buildorder, i think it has something to do with my combat). I do stop probe production if i see it comming so that also isn't the problem..
Does anyone have any good tips to stop this?
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Italy12248 Posts
On August 09 2012 21:35 Nipje wrote:
What is the best way to counter a 1/1/1 these days? I do scout it when it is comming but i always seem to screw it up. Might have something to do with my combat.
The buildorder i use against it is a 1gate expand. After nexus robo and 2x gate. Then i get the time to create about 3 immortals and some zealots / stalkers but it just doesn't seem to work (i don't blame the buildorder, i think it has something to do with my combat). I do stop probe production if i see it comming so that also isn't the problem..
Does anyone have any good tips to stop this?
Sounds like you engage poorly or take too much damage from the harassment that often comes before the timing, please post a replay.
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On August 09 2012 21:35 Nipje wrote:
What is the best way to counter a 1/1/1 these days? I do scout it when it is comming but i always seem to screw it up. Might have something to do with my combat.
The buildorder i use against it is a 1gate expand. After nexus robo and 2x gate. Then i get the time to create about 3 immortals and some zealots / stalkers but it just doesn't seem to work (i don't blame the buildorder, i think it has something to do with my combat). I do stop probe production if i see it comming so that also isn't the problem..
Does anyone have any good tips to stop this?
You can get enough Probes to saturate your Natural.
Prioritize additional Gateways over Units when you scout the 111, you want to have 5-6 ready when he is moving out.
I found the ideal composition to be something around: 2-3 Immortals(you won't have more than that), 6-7 Stalkers, 2-3 Sentries and as many Zealots as you can possibly afford!
Flank with a portion of your Zealots and focus Tanks with Immortals, Banshees with Stalkers. Use Guardianshield! his main damage source is Marines.
keep warping in Units, Chronoboost your Gates! This is pretty important since your main advantage is indeed production.
If he runs low on Banshees warp in Zealots, if he runs low on Marines, warp in Stalkers.
Tanking the first shots with Immortals is very tempting but incredibly easy to mess up and lose your Immortals doing very little damage, so only do that if you are really confident in your Unit control.
Also, build one or two Observers during the attack to ensure you won't take any damage from left over cloaked banshees. Unless you know you cannot brake him without more Immortals, in that case get Immortals and deal with the Banshees later.
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Ugh... got creamed by 111's several times today... I have no idea how Terran's can get that much stuff on one base AND bring SCV's along to tank damage.... (oh wait... Mules!!! Almost forgot).
And I played a TON of PvZ's over the last few days... One thing I often have found - damn you have to work to get wins in PvZ. There is no fast, quick n dirty wait to chalk up a win. Always a long game, and a tough one.
What's a real fast, nasty, kick assed way to kill a 15hatch/15pool zerg player, in under 8 minutes other than a 4 gate (they just have Defense up by then (5:30-6:00) anyways).
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Italy12248 Posts
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On August 09 2012 21:49 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2012 21:35 Nipje wrote:
What is the best way to counter a 1/1/1 these days? I do scout it when it is comming but i always seem to screw it up. Might have something to do with my combat.
The buildorder i use against it is a 1gate expand. After nexus robo and 2x gate. Then i get the time to create about 3 immortals and some zealots / stalkers but it just doesn't seem to work (i don't blame the buildorder, i think it has something to do with my combat). I do stop probe production if i see it comming so that also isn't the problem..
Does anyone have any good tips to stop this? You can get enough Probes to saturate your Natural. Prioritize additional Gateways over Units when you scout the 111, you want to have 5-6 ready when he is moving out. I found the ideal composition to be something around: 2-3 Immortals(you won't have more than that), 6-7 Stalkers, 2-3 Sentries and as many Zealots as you can possibly afford! Flank with a portion of your Zealots and focus Tanks with Immortals, Banshees with Stalkers. Use Guardianshield! his main damage source is Marines. keep warping in Units, Chronoboost your Gates! This is pretty important since your main advantage is indeed production. If he runs low on Banshees warp in Zealots, if he runs low on Marines, warp in Stalkers. Tanking the first shots with Immortals is very tempting but incredibly easy to mess up and lose your Immortals doing very little damage, so only do that if you are really confident in your Unit control. Also, build one or two Observers during the attack to ensure you won't take any damage from left over cloaked banshees. Unless you know you cannot brake him without more Immortals, in that case get Immortals and deal with the Banshees later.
Thank you very much for the information. I am indeed pretty sure that i mess up my combat so this should help me a lot.
I can post a replay later. Thanks!
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thanks! I'll give these a look.
I just find it so frustrating that Terran and Zerg have so many options for cheese and early rushes and pressure, and in PvZ, it is so hard to beat down a Zerg off one base, when they just take 2 or 3 bases and throw up spines, lings and roaches.
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Italy12248 Posts
On August 10 2012 06:26 Grimmyman123 wrote:thanks! I'll give these a look. I just find it so frustrating that Terran and Zerg have so many options for cheese and early rushes and pressure, and in PvZ, it is so hard to beat down a Zerg off one base, when they just take 2 or 3 bases and throw up spines, lings and roaches.
Protoss has infinity 2base options in PvZ though, so that kinda makes up for it.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On August 10 2012 06:26 Grimmyman123 wrote:thanks! I'll give these a look. I just find it so frustrating that Terran and Zerg have so many options for cheese and early rushes and pressure, and in PvZ, it is so hard to beat down a Zerg off one base, when they just take 2 or 3 bases and throw up spines, lings and roaches.
Check out my posts on page 6 if you want wins around 8-9 minutes in PvZ. Its not one base, but 2nd base is dummy base, you will just transfer 8 probes, its there just for looks of normal macro play, and like you are trying to secure it. Its so funny, they will have a peek with overlord, see it and assume macro play and you abuse this so easily...
I am almost ashamed how many easy wins i have with this shitty strat. Since every zerg plays so naive, and everybody is doing what is standard and "normal" play you can abuse this fact if you figure out hole in that kind of play. I posted 8 replays, i probably have 50 more if you need them ^_^.
click me
There are some things that can fuck you up, but after some experience with the build and nice micro it feels like taking candy from a baby. Very often i get insulted, that's how suprising and wtf this all in strategy is.
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Hey, I am having a more "Mechanical problem than a strategic problem.
I recently switched up my hotkeys after seeing the Artosis video.
My question is do, you guys hotkey the cyber core? It is basically useless after warp gate is done.
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It's useful to hotkey it at the very beginning of the game so you can start warpgate while microing your scout probe, and double tapping the key lets you center the screen on your core for easier chronoboost. I also group it with my forges in PvZ when I start my late-game air transition. Some people like to stick their forges and cybernetics core with their nexus to easily keep track of upgrades.
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EPT
