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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On August 11 2012 05:03 ZeromuS wrote:http://drop.sc/236295My PvT remains pretty bad. I've been able to become a little more stable but need some help (big major help) with my engagements. In addition I need some help in knowing where and how to take my third. I always feel like I take it too late. Here is a PvT where I took a third later than I would have liked, and lost the big engagement near my third. It was on antiga. I feel like I had lost the game the moment he took the gold and was able to deny mine. Please let me know how I can improve so that I stop losing terribly to Terrans. + Show Spoiler +
This one here had the Terran at slightly favoured and I am around 900 points in master league in case anyone is wondering. I spoilered it because idk how important my ladder rank is :/
Repost with a link to the replay.
The first engagement comes when you are five seconds away from finishing +3 attack and about thirty seconds away from finishing +3 armor. I daresay if you stalled a bit to wait for those or had more consistent CB you would've smashed his army easily. Also, it seems like half your stalkers were target firing vikings and half were on a-move; just blink all of them underneath the vikings right after the zealots charge through since it's easier to target fire with a ball of stalkers rather than a spread line. Ten zealots are doing nothing after winning their half of the battle while the lack of zealots (or force fields, before your sentries vaporized) on the other half of the battle really screws you up since the bio gets up close to your colossus/stalkers. If those two factors go better (not even the upgrades) you get to retain 2 colossus, probably 3, and things don't look too bad for you. I personally prefer to initially get archons before storm when doing double forge, since archons are an immediate return on gas investment (storm was half done when he hit) that take advantage of your upgrades, but I guess that's up to what you like.
After that you take control of the center but decide to push down and attack him for some reason, why? You can deny mining at the gold with stalkers/colossus and force him to fight on your terms, either around the side or going up the ramp in the middle. In either case templar and storm are much better when defending a position than attacking it. If you play scrappy until your fourth kicks in then you are back in the game.
You could've set up your third at 13 minutes when your second colossus came out and your observer spotted him backing off. Looks like you had the same idea by sending the probe out to make the pylon but for some reason the factory manages to delay you for two whole minutes from the time that pylon is queued up. If you have an observer over the area between the center and your ramp you can see any frontal attacks coming which means you can kill the factory with your entire army (perhaps minus stalkers in case of drops) instead of just two zealots.
Usually when I play against triple OC, I take a super early third because I know the medivac push will be delayed by at least a minute, and sometimes two minutes because he might make more initial barracks or go for double upgrades (goes with the triple OC theme of "macro hard"). The idea is to cut a few warpin cycles to get a third, tech, and enough gates, then get those lost units back before his pressure hits. I don't play triple OC that much, and I stopped doing double forge every game, so I don't have too much experience doing this, but it seems theoretically sound on most maps. On this particular map I'm not sure how much I like it because even though the medivac pressure is later, if he does a multiple medivac drop while attacking the front, the sheer number of units that terran gets from a triple OC opener might just overwhelm you. Then again, I don't like this map for anything in PvT.
e: Completely unrelated to what happened in the game, but it really makes me uncomfortable how naked your main is to drops, especially since your double forge is right there. Yeah, you have stalkers by the smoke, but if a double medivac drop unloads by your gas those stalkers are worthless given the late blink. An observer patrolling the 3 o'clock third would cover the space that your stalkers don't. Or a probe/pylon there, just something to give you advance notice.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 11 2012 06:17 whistle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 05:03 ZeromuS wrote:http://drop.sc/236295My PvT remains pretty bad. I've been able to become a little more stable but need some help (big major help) with my engagements. In addition I need some help in knowing where and how to take my third. I always feel like I take it too late. Here is a PvT where I took a third later than I would have liked, and lost the big engagement near my third. It was on antiga. I feel like I had lost the game the moment he took the gold and was able to deny mine. Please let me know how I can improve so that I stop losing terribly to Terrans. + Show Spoiler +
This one here had the Terran at slightly favoured and I am around 900 points in master league in case anyone is wondering. I spoilered it because idk how important my ladder rank is :/
Repost with a link to the replay. The first engagement comes when you are five seconds away from finishing +3 attack and about thirty seconds away from finishing +3 armor. I daresay if you stalled a bit to wait for those or had more consistent CB you would've smashed his army easily. Also, it seems like half your stalkers were target firing vikings and half were on a-move; just blink all of them underneath the vikings right after the zealots charge through since it's easier to target fire with a ball of stalkers rather than a spread line. Ten zealots are doing nothing after winning their half of the battle while the lack of zealots (or force fields, before your sentries vaporized) on the other half of the battle really screws you up since the bio gets up close to your colossus/stalkers. If those two factors go better (not even the upgrades) you get to retain 2 colossus, probably 3, and things don't look too bad for you. I personally prefer to initially get archons before storm when doing double forge, since archons are an immediate return on gas investment (storm was half done when he hit) that take advantage of your upgrades, but I guess that's up to what you like. After that you take control of the center but decide to push down and attack him for some reason, why? You can deny mining at the gold with stalkers/colossus and force him to fight on your terms, either around the side or going up the ramp in the middle. In either case templar and storm are much better when defending a position than attacking it. If you play scrappy until your fourth kicks in then you are back in the game. You could've set up your third at 13 minutes when your second colossus came out and your observer spotted him backing off. Looks like you had the same idea by sending the probe out to make the pylon but for some reason the factory manages to delay you for two whole minutes from the time that pylon is queued up. If you have an observer over the area between the center and your ramp you can see any frontal attacks coming which means you can kill the factory with your entire army (perhaps minus stalkers in case of drops) instead of just two zealots. Usually when I play against triple OC, I take a super early third because I know the medivac push will be delayed by at least a minute, and sometimes two minutes because he might make more initial barracks or go for double upgrades (goes with the triple OC theme of "macro hard"). The idea is to cut a few warpin cycles to get a third, tech, and enough gates, then get those lost units back before his pressure hits. I don't play triple OC that much, and I stopped doing double forge every game, so I don't have too much experience doing this, but it seems theoretically sound on most maps. On this particular map I'm not sure how much I like it because even though the medivac pressure is later, if he does a multiple medivac drop while attacking the front, the sheer number of units that terran gets from a triple OC opener might just overwhelm you. Then again, I don't like this map for anything in PvT. e: Completely unrelated to what happened in the game, but it really makes me uncomfortable how naked your main is to drops, especially since your double forge is right there. Yeah, you have stalkers by the smoke, but if a double medivac drop unloads by your gas those stalkers are worthless given the late blink. An observer patrolling the 3 o'clock third would cover the space that your stalkers don't. Or a probe/pylon there, just something to give you advance notice.
Thank you, that helps a lot actually.
What do you do now that you have stopped double ups? I know the Startale style involves single forge faster templar into double ups, is that the kind of thing you go for?
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I haven't really settled on anything yet.. most of my recent games have been quick single forge (around the time the expansion finishes) into two rangeless colossus & templar transition while getting a lot of armor upgrades. It's just something that I thought might work because I got sick of having to macro & control immaculately to defend the double reactor marine medivac timing without colossus, but I found it a bit difficult to transition out of colossus against a viking heavy timing if I commit too much to them. I sort of just wing the build by feel so it's not the most efficient, and I've mostly been using my time to practice execution rather than build improvement. But a few weeks ago I saw Creator doing one rangeless colossus into double forge and templar, which seems like a more polished and efficient way to do the same thing, so I think I'll start trying that.
Glad the post helped!
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Two Protoss questions:
Question #1: PvZ - Right now I have been using the 4 gate +1 opening where you hide a pylon and warp in zealots. I've been using that because I feel it's a good way to apply pressure even if you don't do much damage. My question is, what's a good macro transition? I feel like you can obviously just make stalkers, sentry, immortals and expand, but I feel like I should do some further harass. I know there are blink stalker follow ups, but those seem to be focused on all-inning or putting a lot of stock into that one attack. Any suggestions?
Question #1: PvP - Right now I have been opening up 3 gate blink stalker with a robotics, but I find at least 50% of my opponents get two gateways and expand off a few stalkers and a zealot and then get their sentries. By the time I am able to confirm their expansion I have my blink up and a robo, but there expansion is done and mine has just begun. Am I really behind at this point? Do I NEED to do damage to still be in the game? Could I just macro with archon/immortal/chargelot from here?
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What beats cannon elevator on antiga shipyard? Namely 12 forge, pylon + cannon in the corner by your ramp, then use that pylon to power another cannon on the high ground next to your gas. You can't deny it by pulling probes, they have to go all the way around and the opponent can simply wall himself in with pylons on the low ground so your probes can't reach. You can't get a stalker out in time.
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I am going to assume you FFE here, if you do oldschool gateway expand not much of this is relevant:
1) Depends on the opening. If you don't see a 3 hatch opening yes because you need to be super paranoid about 1-2 base play like roach/ling, baneling busts, or 2base tech like muta, infestor or even a nydus allin. If you see him taking a 3rd at a standard time, i don't think it's necessary. Normally it's really hard to get all the way in the zerg's main to see the exact gas timing though, especially since the queen buff.
2) The standard 3base roach play takes 2 gasses at 6 minutes or so, and 2 more gasses a bit later. If he goes up all the way to 6 gasses it means he's most likely switching away from roach/ling or pure roach to either infestors, mutas or hydras if he's silly.
3) Off a speedling expand, their nat goes down at around 4.20 ish and 3rd at around 6 minutes. Off 15 pool with no gas, their nat goes down at 2.50 and their third at around 4-4.30.
4) Again depends on your build. Most macro follow ups to FFE scout with either observers or stargate units; if you still sentry expand getting hallucination is nice though.
5) Lair is usually started around 7.30-8 minutes. For Hive, it depends on how greedy they are being and how they react to your play. Assuming you take a third, they opened roach and decided to take a fourth and tech rather than try to bust you with a roach max, Hive would start at around 13 minutes or so. By 16.30 Zerg can definitely have Broodlords and while it will never be that super scary critical mass that can only be killed with an Archon Toilet, it's still a bit late for a pre-hive timing attack because most likely his spine wall will also be up; you should aim to hit him about one minute earlier than that afaik.
Keep in mind that if he does go for some pressure on your third instead, his timings will all most likely be delayed by a couple of minutes.
Thanks so much! I'll try to keep those times in mind when I play now  hopefully it'll get better 
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On August 11 2012 10:29 Xequecal wrote:
What beats cannon elevator on antiga shipyard? Namely 12 forge, pylon + cannon in the corner by your ramp, then use that pylon to power another cannon on the high ground next to your gas. You can't deny it by pulling probes, they have to go all the way around and the opponent can simply wall himself in with pylons on the low ground so your probes can't reach. You can't get a stalker out in time.
Kill the probe on high ground and wall your ramp with 3 pylons then get 1 cannon or stalker depends at what time he's doing it.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 11 2012 11:18 Asmodeusx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2012 10:29 Xequecal wrote:
What beats cannon elevator on antiga shipyard? Namely 12 forge, pylon + cannon in the corner by your ramp, then use that pylon to power another cannon on the high ground next to your gas. You can't deny it by pulling probes, they have to go all the way around and the opponent can simply wall himself in with pylons on the low ground so your probes can't reach. You can't get a stalker out in time. Kill the probe on high ground and wall your ramp with 3 pylons then get 1 cannon or stalker depends at what time he's doing it.
I would advise to have vision of the cannon spot for the initial cannon and scouting after gateway. If you see that he is doing that you will need to get a forge to defend.
Its really hard to stop and similar to the Xel'naga rush from a LONG time back. You COULD wall with pylons but that is horribly inefficient and gives them a chance back into the game (you are cutting probes and a cyber core while doing this).
Furthermore, killing the probe involves finding it and killing it before that first cannon is done which is often quite difficult. By taking the gas closest to your ramp you can prevent a gas steal for vision for their cannons, and by checking the cannon location often you can hopefully scout in time to get a forge and hopefully deny too many cannons from going up.
This being said it is hard to do but killing the probe and putting up a 3 pylon wall while a possibility isn't easy to accomplish either.
Note: if you see the pylon going down before a single cannon finishes try to kill it with 4 probes. It will delay his cannons enough to let you either Forge defend if he commits or stop the rush entirely.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 11 2012 04:16 SkaPunk wrote:
I need a proper response vs a 6.7.8 pool. I cant fucking ever beat it, I'm like 1480 points in masters so please dont give me advice unless youre high masters/GM. They just drone so damn hard behind it and get speed so i cant pressure. WTF DO I DO?!
I think you would get some better advice if you were
A) a little bit nicer. Some of us aren't GM but might have something to add. Its all fair and good to not want bronze advice but your wording is quite condescending.
B) put in a little more detail (I am assuming you can hold the 6 pool without losing many drones - pylon/cannon in mineral line etc etc)
C) post a replay it could help if you have a few recent ones
D) describe what you are trying to do in response after surviving initial 6 lings
E) Tell us the maps you are having most trouble with.
For what its worth, there are 2 maps (Ohana, Cloud) where you can build a Forge and 2 gates THEN a cannon all on 13/14 and then not lose the nat to the lings. On ohana, you will have to pull probes to put on hold position at the bottom of your ramp if they focus down the forge and the cannon isn't down the SECOND it can be and if your initial pylon was even a few seconds late. On cloud you should be able to hold effectively by adding to the wall behind the forge if you place it a little further forward and on the bottom of the left spawn, top of right spawn. That bit that Juts out there can help you wall if the forge is starting to die and they focus it.
The gates will have enough HP to hold for sure against a 7/8/9
Against 6 pool you need to have a couple probes to help block the ramp giving the cannon time to kill the lings alongside the probes on ohana (cannon should be in range of the ramp and the buildings). On Cloud, you need to pull the probes a bit further forward and keep them from breaking it if you see that the gate/forge will die before the cannon finishes.
counter cannoning their nat after holding the wall in is good and will let you get an expo up. Make 3 zealots and counter them to also scout for baneling bust and go for some sort of timing after.
Blink timings are good, so are 3 void rays + 6 Gates old school all in.
As for maps where you can't wall in against 6 pool I also have a lot of troubles defending so on those maps I can not offer too much advice.
On Ohana and Cloud though it is significantly easier to hold 6 pool than any other map. Shakuras also applies the same approach but you WILL for sure need to pull probes to hold it as walling off extra is more difficult and the cannon often isn't in range of the whole ramp there.
(should have been more careful and avoided the double post >.<)
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So what is the appropriate response to a build like Lyyna's, the turtling Terran mech style?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003
It seems like opponents with the best success go for some colossus, lots of immortals, zealots, stalkers, some high templar, some archons. The only thing is, they still don't trade efficiently, in fact if they trade evenly it's pretty rare, usually the Terran does better. The only thing I can guess is that you should aggressively expand in order to either ensure an economic advantage or force an attack from the Terran?
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On August 11 2012 10:25 Salv wrote:
Question #1: PvZ - Right now I have been using the 4 gate +1 opening where you hide a pylon and warp in zealots. I've been using that because I feel it's a good way to apply pressure even if you don't do much damage. My question is, what's a good macro transition? I feel like you can obviously just make stalkers, sentry, immortals and expand, but I feel like I should do some further harass. I know there are blink stalker follow ups, but those seem to be focused on all-inning or putting a lot of stock into that one attack. Any suggestions? [/quote[
Warp Prism harass is pretty solid, particularly if you have fast weapon upgrades and Charge incoming for Zealots.
DT is a great tool to harass, and doesn't really interfere with your "main" army composition much. They shut down so many bases, or at least force the Zerg to go above and beyond simply building a new hatch, and in a worst case scenario you can make Archons with them. They can even be handy in later-game engagements by being really annoying Infestor assassins.
A "good macro transition" is kind of vague though. Scout what your opponent is up to, then respond appropriately.
[quote[Question #1: PvP - Right now I have been opening up 3 gate blink stalker with a robotics, but I find at least 50% of my opponents get two gateways and expand off a few stalkers and a zealot and then get their sentries. By the time I am able to confirm their expansion I have my blink up and a robo, but there expansion is done and mine has just begun. Am I really behind at this point? Do I NEED to do damage to still be in the game? Could I just macro with archon/immortal/chargelot from here?
You don't need to do damage, but you have a great opportunity to do so because you have Blink/Obs and they don't have tech up at that point. You can also experiment with blinking into their main, backing out when their army shows up, then go for their natural and FF the ramp so their army can't defend the expansion because they're stuck in the main.
On August 11 2012 10:29 Xequecal wrote:
What beats cannon elevator on antiga shipyard? Namely 12 forge, pylon + cannon in the corner by your ramp, then use that pylon to power another cannon on the high ground next to your gas. You can't deny it by pulling probes, they have to go all the way around and the opponent can simply wall himself in with pylons on the low ground so your probes can't reach. You can't get a stalker out in time.
If you scout this too late, there isn't a whole lot you can do. Scout early-ish and immediately build a defensive Forge (skip the Core for now, cancel it if you already started it but need money for the Forge), and then Cannon however you need to do so in order to maintain control of your base. If you can keep them from completing a Cannon on the high ground, you should be in great shape.
On August 11 2012 13:15 Salv wrote:So what is the appropriate response to a build like Lyyna's, the turtling Terran mech style? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323003It seems like opponents with the best success go for some colossus, lots of immortals, zealots, stalkers, some high templar, some archons. The only thing is, they still don't trade efficiently, in fact if they trade evenly it's pretty rare, usually the Terran does better. The only thing I can guess is that you should aggressively expand in order to either ensure an economic advantage or force an attack from the Terran?
The power of mech comes from efficiency and brute force in direct engagements. Much of this stems directly from the Siege Tank. To beat his efficiency, you should expand and create a solid income, but you should also pay attention to your engagements so that you are not wasteful.
Aggressively expanding is OK. The only real ways a Mech player can stop you from expanding are:
1) (Cloaked) Banshee harass
2) Hellion harass
3) Moving his army
Building a substantial number of Cannons at each base will deter the first two. When you do expand, try to expand to opposite corners of the map. Mech is very immobile, and if he wants to shut down 2 expansions it can be very difficult for him to run his army across the whole map 2-3 times to kill things off.
Try not to engage into Sieged Tanks. Stay away when he is Sieged, but punish him when he is not. Force him to move his army slowly by leap-frogging it.
Do not let him sit on 4-5 bases. His army pretty much has to be in one spot or you can pick it apart, so attack wherever his army is not stationed. Make it difficult for him to take a 3rd. On the flip side, if you do have expansions across the map from each other, then counter-attacks are a great way to play because you can run in and destroy all his production/income before his army can successfully travel across the map 2-3 times.
The above are pretty solid ideas. This next idea is less concrete, but it works for me and my style of play. I find the best way to defeat a Mech Terran is through air superiority.
If the Terran concedes the air battle you can create a bunch of Phoenix, lift his Tanks, and march your army in quite safely. When his Tanks land, you crush them and win the game (because it will take forever to rebuild his army). Alternatively, a few Carriers make it easy to pick apart a Tank line if the game goes long.
If the Terran fights the air battle you have a much fairer game because he most likely has MUCH fewer Tanks, and unless he has a certain threshold of Tanks then your ground army is still in great shape to beat his . Phoenix/HT is really solid here, and your success will probably be determined by how you use your HT because Storm is great but so is Feedback too.
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I have a quick question, can you chronoboost buildings without centering the screen on those buildings and click with the mouse on it`. let aside over the minimap.
for example chrono with hotkeys or clicking on the avatar or something like that
thx
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Hey guys, really fast question here. iv been playing sc for about 6 days, and after placing bronze, have risen to high gold / low plat.
However, i know that mouse accuracy will always be a massive issue for me ( from experience from training in other games )
as a protoss, i am considering switching to other races that require less spell casting as my positioning and multi tasking / macro is still strong.
so in essence: is it worth me switching race? if so which?
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On August 11 2012 23:49 phil.ipp wrote:
I have a quick question, can you chronoboost buildings without centering the screen on those buildings and click with the mouse on it`. let aside over the minimap.
for example chrono with hotkeys or clicking on the avatar or something like that
thx
I know you can chronoboost by clicking the building on the minimap, not sure if you can do building portraits.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 12 2012 00:14 Vernay wrote:
Hey guys, really fast question here. iv been playing sc for about 6 days, and after placing bronze, have risen to high gold / low plat.
However, i know that mouse accuracy will always be a massive issue for me ( from experience from training in other games )
as a protoss, i am considering switching to other races that require less spell casting as my positioning and multi tasking / macro is still strong.
so in essence: is it worth me switching race? if so which?
Pick the race you enjoy playing the most. Who cares if you have to learn to be more accurate with the mouse. If thats what it takes thats what it takes
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On August 12 2012 00:46 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2012 00:14 Vernay wrote:
Hey guys, really fast question here. iv been playing sc for about 6 days, and after placing bronze, have risen to high gold / low plat.
However, i know that mouse accuracy will always be a massive issue for me ( from experience from training in other games )
as a protoss, i am considering switching to other races that require less spell casting as my positioning and multi tasking / macro is still strong.
so in essence: is it worth me switching race? if so which? Pick the race you enjoy playing the most. Who cares if you have to learn to be more accurate with the mouse. If thats what it takes thats what it takes
hehe my problem is that protoss is a micro heavy race ;/ i dont want to run into issues later.
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Is rushing storm in a PvT efficient? I remember day9 saying that rushing templar/storm is not really that efficient as the terran army is not that big when storm finishes.
What do you guys think?
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why does a protoss help me thread even exist its not like protoss players need to know anything about this game
they are in fact not even playing starcraft 2
User was warned for this post
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On August 12 2012 01:00 HexSCII wrote:
Is rushing storm in a PvT efficient? I remember day9 saying that rushing templar/storm is not really that efficient as the terran army is not that big when storm finishes.
What do you guys think?
That's exactly why I like rushing storm. Don't need many units besides ht's, and it's not like gateway units are useful (tier 1). I'd rather have "overkill" units than units that need to be perfectly micro'd. I feel more at peace knowing I have storm, rather than hoping the other guy helps me out by killing some of his own units. No peace of mind there.
On that note... builds that seemingly force you to make gateway units... does anyone have replays of them beating 1/1/1 at Diamond or higher? That build owns my life.
But yeah, if you need fewer units to accomplish something, that simply means you can do things like get double upgrades faster and/or take your third faster. I don't understand how this can be a bad thing. By the time a terran army is big, you will usually have a lot of energy built up, so 4 templars become more like 8 (if you made them later).
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@Playa. I have one.
MC's DT expand. 3 DT's hitting at 7 minutes, 12 gas. Hits between the 1st and second banshee, and normally just b4 a scan so you can bust the wall. You can also afford a robo facility, and probably maybe cancel cloak/completely destroy the army, since 3DT's are actually greater DPS than what the terran has. I can't post a replay tho  .
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213108 this thread has a similar build.
I use a 11 scout 12 gas 14 gate 17 pylon (hidden in my base, generally behind the mineral line as terrans don't scan the nexus, ever...) 18/19 cyber, 23/24 2nd gas, 24 pylon (mostly proxy with my scout probe), get twilight once you're pretty sure the scv has left, place two more gates and dark shrine as you can, and the DT's hit at about 7 minutes ideally, and you expand shortly after All CB's on probes.
Use the scout probe to scout for a reactored rax if you suspect 1/1/1, otherwise you can use it to turret scout the front, also send in one DT to check for turrets as well, as you can survive losing 1 DT, not 3. Transitions well into chargelots and double forge as well, and you can afford the robo fac and a few more stalkers if you suspect cloaked banshees.
Block the ramp with the zealots and stalkers if you are scared of hellions, and get an obs once you scout the 1st banshee.
Actually beating a 1/1/1 with gateway units, no, not so much .
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EPT
