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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
PvT: For a few months MC has been doing zealot -> stalker -> sentry -> expand while sentry is building, instead of the old "MC style" where you make two stalkers with chronoboost, but that's a very minor difference. Honestly, the specific 1 gate FE build you do doesn't matter too much until you get to higher leagues, just pick one so you get a lot of practice with it. In terms of transitions in the midgame, the same thing applies... double forge is just one way to play, but it's solid and you should have good success with it.
PvP: I wouldn't recommend SaSe's pressure expansion build if you're in gold. It's rather tricky to execute the build properly, and once you expand, it's easy to die to most 1 base attacks in PvP unless you scout/react well and have good control. You could make the argument that these difficulties will make you a better player but I think it is rather like dropping a kid into the ocean to teach him how to swim. Instead I would go with a robo build, either 1 gate robo or 3 gate robo. Robo is a flexible style without any straight-up build order losses that gives you good scouting and teaches you to react to that information. There are probably more recent builds out there, but when I open robo I still use the build outlined in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117.
PvZ: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905 should have everything you need to know about macro PvZ. The robotics transition outlined there is the most standard way to play PvZ currently. If you're interested in all-ins, check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325014 or http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=346737 or www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344421.
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One thing I have found with MC's old 1 Gate FE is that I am quite vulnerable to marine-scv all-ins. Is this a weakness of the build, or am I just doing it wrong? Zealot-Stalker-Sentry does seem safer as you can still poke with Zealot and Stalker while making a Sentry. I presume the minerals saved means that you don't have to probe cut at 30 and you can still afford an early expand? Does MC make another unit from his gate? You should be able to, I think, unless the chrono distribution is different?
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On August 14 2012 18:01 aZealot wrote:
One thing I have found with MC's old 1 Gate FE is that I am quite vulnerable to marine-scv all-ins. Is this a weakness of the build, or am I just doing it wrong? Zealot-Stalker-Sentry does seem safer as you can still poke with Zealot and Stalker while making a Sentry. I presume the minerals saved means that you don't have to probe cut at 30 and you can still afford an early expand? Does MC make another unit from his gate? You should be able to, I think, unless the chrono distribution is different?
I always get a Sentry after the second Stalker. Since you Chronoboost on your Stalkers twice, I belive you should have the Sentry in time.
I need some help in PvT myself. Recently, I've been trying to do the style that HasuObs uses often: Robo Bay into double Forge. However, that build cuts gateway units a lot, so I often find myself having a hard time against Medivac timings. I'm a low Diamond player. Would you suggest to keep trying this build, or go for something else?
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I have a question that has been nagging at the back of my head, but didn't bother to try and figure it out until I had to face it on the ladder.
In Protoss vs. Random, specifically when they spawn Zerg, what is the best approach? My PvZ is really strong when I'm able to open FFE, however a FFE is suicide in PvP and still really poor in PvT. I feel like any sort of 1 base play puts me at an immediate disadvantage when facing a Zerg player, particularly since they can go Hatch first and I don't feel like I can punish it at all.
Is the Gate->Nexus->Core approach ideal? What should I be concerned about if I open this way? It seems very vulnerable until the wall-off completes. Also, any sort of light pressure I can put out with this build doesn't seem to do much of anything to the Zerg player. I just feel very behind both army wise and economy wise the entire game, almost like I'm a full minute or two behind the Zerg player.
Any advice would be appreciated.
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On August 15 2012 07:05 Omnibrad wrote:
I have a question that has been nagging at the back of my head, but didn't bother to try and figure it out until I had to face it on the ladder.
In Protoss vs. Random, specifically when they spawn Zerg, what is the best approach? My PvZ is really strong when I'm able to open FFE, however a FFE is suicide in PvP and still really poor in PvT. I feel like any sort of 1 base play puts me at an immediate disadvantage when facing a Zerg player, particularly since they can go Hatch first and I don't feel like I can punish it at all.
Is the Gate->Nexus->Core approach ideal? What should I be concerned about if I open this way? It seems very vulnerable until the wall-off completes. Also, any sort of light pressure I can put out with this build doesn't seem to do much of anything to the Zerg player. I just feel very behind both army wise and economy wise the entire game, almost like I'm a full minute or two behind the Zerg player.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Try opening Gateway (to wall off) against Random. It gives more flexibility than FFE in PvR.
Zergs early pool rush?
+ Show Spoiler +
Speedling timing? Zerg being greedy? 6gate them.
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On August 15 2012 08:11 Roadog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 07:05 Omnibrad wrote:
I have a question that has been nagging at the back of my head, but didn't bother to try and figure it out until I had to face it on the ladder.
In Protoss vs. Random, specifically when they spawn Zerg, what is the best approach? My PvZ is really strong when I'm able to open FFE, however a FFE is suicide in PvP and still really poor in PvT. I feel like any sort of 1 base play puts me at an immediate disadvantage when facing a Zerg player, particularly since they can go Hatch first and I don't feel like I can punish it at all.
Is the Gate->Nexus->Core approach ideal? What should I be concerned about if I open this way? It seems very vulnerable until the wall-off completes. Also, any sort of light pressure I can put out with this build doesn't seem to do much of anything to the Zerg player. I just feel very behind both army wise and economy wise the entire game, almost like I'm a full minute or two behind the Zerg player.
Any advice would be appreciated. Try opening Gateway (high ground wall) against Random. It gives more flexibility than FFE in PvR. Zergs early pool rush? + Show Spoiler +http://youtu.be/4Pdb0KnMosY Speedling timing? Zerg being greedy? 6gate them.
Fixed. >.>
Ok, accidental double post.
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At high diamond, all terran players seem unstoppable. If I go collosus, they easily dispatch them with vikings and if I go templar, they almost always seems to stim and dodge the storms. They run me out options until they finally stim towards me and finish me off. Any suggestions?
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How does one go about defending a 1 base colossus all in with a 2 gate robo expand in PvP?
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 15 2012 08:39 Davron wrote:
At high diamond, all terran players seem unstoppable. If I go collosus, they easily dispatch them with vikings and if I go templar, they almost always seems to stim and dodge the storms. They run me out options until they finally stim towards me and finish me off. Any suggestions?
In a general sense it is just players getting better. What used to work for you playstyle wise will not do as well against Terran players that can control their armies that little bit better.
It's really just a case of refining your builds (whatever they may be), making better reads and macroing/controlling better. While 'play better' is pretty useless advice it's coming from experience. I coasted through PvT going up the leagues, and it's still by FARRR my best matchup but when I first started playing Masters Ts on ladders I was getting stomped.
I looked at replays and saw that I was getting my tech down on time, and my builds weren't trash. However, army control and missing warpin (that I previously got away with) were the cause of my downfall.
Hope this helps, and if it didn't I'm sure you'll get advice from other players here anyway
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On August 15 2012 08:39 Davron wrote:
At high diamond, all terran players seem unstoppable. If I go collosus, they easily dispatch them with vikings and if I go templar, they almost always seems to stim and dodge the storms. They run me out options until they finally stim towards me and finish me off. Any suggestions?
1. Post a replay. If it's not working for you and it works for people at higher levels, you're probably doing something wrong. How are we supposed to help you with specifics if you're not showing us even one game of yours?
2. The point of early colossi isn't just to get AoE, it's also to force vikings when the terran is still interested in building medivacs. Terrans want a bunch of Medivacs because they mean infinite stims and drops. If you force vikings, they have to cut Medivacs until they get another starport (which is honestly a 3 base thing unless they cut something).
3. Most of the struggle protosses have against Terrans is dealing with the mobility and micro-ability of Bio. You can win against bio with good army splits, constantly scouting for drops, and by making sure you minimalize damage from drops.
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I haven't looked into that build because I'm happy with my current PvZ but it doesn't strike me as a build that is particularly technical to execute. The one thing that I would note is that you're getting your additional gateways after the nexus so it's very important that you don't delay the nexus for too long in favor of more probes, and make sure you put the gateways down right when you have the money. Otherwise you might not have enough production to hold off the earliest waves of units that zerg can send. You'll also have to scout diligently for quick mutalisks and in that case be careful not to invest too much money into robo units.
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I'm really confused at how people are scouting so late in pvp. (cyber core or later) How can they hold a proxy 10 gate if they don't scout? Do they just take the risk and hope that their opponent doesn't go proxies or can they hold it somehow w/ out scouting?
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Canada13430 Posts
On August 15 2012 14:22 -MoOsE- wrote:
I'm really confused at how people are scouting so late in pvp. (cyber core or later) How can they hold a proxy 10 gate if they don't scout? Do they just take the risk and hope that their opponent doesn't go proxies or can they hold it somehow w/ out scouting?
Personally, I check proxy locations based on map.
On daybreak and cloud I check in base corners on 9 then gate 13 and out of base on the 13 gate probe.
On 4 player maps, the chance of getting proxied is super small so people scout later for where the opponent is not their build.
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On August 15 2012 14:22 -MoOsE- wrote:
I'm really confused at how people are scouting so late in pvp. (cyber core or later) How can they hold a proxy 10 gate if they don't scout? Do they just take the risk and hope that their opponent doesn't go proxies or can they hold it somehow w/ out scouting?
It's mostly map dependant. On 2 player maps, (or maps like shakuras or metal but i have those veto'd), i check commonproxy locations to be safe. Also, on 4 player maps where all spawns are available, the chances of a proxy are extremely unlikely. Of course, it actually is possible to hold off proxy gates without them being scouted, but it's extremely hard and i wouldn't recommend not scouting at least the proxy locations on maps where it common.
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On August 15 2012 08:39 Davron wrote:
At high diamond, all terran players seem unstoppable. If I go collosus, they easily dispatch them with vikings and if I go templar, they almost always seems to stim and dodge the storms. They run me out options until they finally stim towards me and finish me off. Any suggestions?
Make stalkers to dispatch the vikings. Don't lay down such bad storms. Put more effort into your post and we'll put more effort into our answers.
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PvR:
Don't go gate at the front. Go standard 13 gate near the nexus. Beats early pools, if its zerg you can wall off with 2nd pylon and gates, if its terran can still 1 gate expand, and if its toss, a 13 gate isnt that behind a 12 gate and can still 4 gate from if you want.
Gate at the front requires a full wall off to hold a pool, or at least a probe pull
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On August 14 2012 18:27 Bahamuth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 18:01 aZealot wrote:
One thing I have found with MC's old 1 Gate FE is that I am quite vulnerable to marine-scv all-ins. Is this a weakness of the build, or am I just doing it wrong? Zealot-Stalker-Sentry does seem safer as you can still poke with Zealot and Stalker while making a Sentry. I presume the minerals saved means that you don't have to probe cut at 30 and you can still afford an early expand? Does MC make another unit from his gate? You should be able to, I think, unless the chrono distribution is different? I always get a Sentry after the second Stalker. Since you Chronoboost on your Stalkers twice, I belive you should have the Sentry in time.
So, I am doing it wrong. Thanks.
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On August 15 2012 17:16 Arachne wrote:
PvR:
Don't go gate at the front. Go standard 13 gate near the nexus. Beats early pools, if its zerg you can wall off with 2nd pylon and gates, if its terran can still 1 gate expand, and if its toss, a 13 gate isnt that behind a 12 gate and can still 4 gate from if you want.
Gate at the front requires a full wall off to hold a pool, or at least a probe pull
i used to always wall off at front vs zerg when 3gate sentry expand was still popular (now i always FFE). was i doing it wrong the entire time?!
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On August 16 2012 04:17 cclim387 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 17:16 Arachne wrote:
PvR:
Don't go gate at the front. Go standard 13 gate near the nexus. Beats early pools, if its zerg you can wall off with 2nd pylon and gates, if its terran can still 1 gate expand, and if its toss, a 13 gate isnt that behind a 12 gate and can still 4 gate from if you want.
Gate at the front requires a full wall off to hold a pool, or at least a probe pull i used to always wall off at front vs zerg when 3gate sentry expand was still popular (now i always FFE). was i doing it wrong the entire time?!
Ya, you were. Most people were. WhiteRa would put his first gate in base and wall off later for this exact reason, at that point in time, but he wasn't playing midgame at a high enough caliber to influence the whole meta game with that, and then the FFE basically dominated popularity for the matchup. But basically, a zealot and probe pull will guard your buildings and workers until a boosted stalker comes out, and the stalker+zealot will chase out slow lings by themselves. Then you wall off the low ground and make a sentry, or if you see him get late gas off a 6-8pool, you can kill him with a 4gate because he can't afford to get speed or 1base roach or bane and survive a 4gate...just not enough money for that.
We also know now that you don't need 3 gates to sentry expand. 1 is fine. You boost the gate constantly and wall off your low ground, and try to get home before speed finishes (if you choose to poke or pressure).
Most ransoms who hit Zerg will open gas/pool because it's the most favorable opener against a 13 gate, but you can totally defend it with a good sim-city and sentries. Just make a critical decision about whether you can wall-off the low ground in time, or if you see a bust you can just wall the safer high ground and push down the ramp later.
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