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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
Canada13389 Posts
That isn't how this works.
Ask a Question, specific or general post a replay of you regarding that question if it is about your play and not a general response.
OR open a [H] thread wherein you analyse your play and ask for help and post replays following the guidelines.
Do not post a link to a thread from june with no information and expect us to know how to help you. I will put effort into helping you if you put effort into asking.
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On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army.
Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long.
Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play.
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On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play.
Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights.
Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map.
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On August 18 2012 08:59 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 08:35 aValanos wrote:
Hey lately in pvp I have been doing, but I feel that everytime they go for archon+ zealot charge I loose the game, anyone know a good response to zealot archon?
Are you talking about the 1 base bust? And what strategy are you doing against it? Typically the answer is to wall off completely at the top of your ramp upon scouting the bust incoming.
ah sry, should probably explain a bit more, the build that I am using pvp is usually the phoenix build from Liquid Hero. So I just build like 3 phoenixes to kill probes and pump out immortals and expand when i see that the protoss wants to expand. But I have no idea how to react to massive alot of zealot and archons when you have like 2 bases each. Immortals are quite useless, phoenixes is quite useless and collosi gets smashed with no defence, so if I scout a twilight and no robo, or twilight and dark shrine or templar archive, what is the right defence? It is reall yhard to wall off completly the natural but maybe that is what I ened to do? Because it is mostly a allin.
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Italy12246 Posts
Phoenix builds are indeed quite weak to a zealot/archon 2base timing; your best best bet is to walloff your natural with gateways and stall off until you get colossus tech up.
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hm will try it next time and see what happens
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On August 18 2012 19:01 aValanos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 08:59 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:On August 18 2012 08:35 aValanos wrote:
Hey lately in pvp I have been doing, but I feel that everytime they go for archon+ zealot charge I loose the game, anyone know a good response to zealot archon?
Are you talking about the 1 base bust? And what strategy are you doing against it? Typically the answer is to wall off completely at the top of your ramp upon scouting the bust incoming. ah sry, should probably explain a bit more, the build that I am using pvp is usually the phoenix build from Liquid Hero. So I just build like 3 phoenixes to kill probes and pump out immortals and expand when i see that the protoss wants to expand. But I have no idea how to react to massive alot of zealot and archons when you have like 2 bases each. Immortals are quite useless, phoenixes is quite useless and collosi gets smashed with no defence, so if I scout a twilight and no robo, or twilight and dark shrine or templar archive, what is the right defence? It is reall yhard to wall off completly the natural but maybe that is what I ened to do? Because it is mostly a allin. You MUST build wall off vs this kind of play, there is no way around it unless you are light years ahead. Before you have a considerable amount of collosus, zealot archon rapes collosus gateway armys in the open. Your goal should be to kill his archons as they do the most damage and once they are dead, force fiedls will dominate the zealots.
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On August 18 2012 18:33 Abusion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play. Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights. Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map.
I made an assumption that this was banshee play in the mid-game, not opening up to the 1-1-1 or some kind of mech. Lately, there has been an increasingly popular timing in PvT where the Terran gets delayed cloaked banshees because it attacks from a different metaphorical angle at about the same time when the normal Stim/+1/Medivac timing would hit. So the protoss is going down a tech path or two and investing heavily into dealing with the bio push, then cloaked units show up and do a bunch of damage. By this point in time, you're in the process of getting stuff to handle drops. If you're getting Blink, then you probably can handle Banshee play just fine with a couple more observers and/or maybe a cannon at each mineral line for detection. But if it's not the best map for blink or you otherwise decided to go straight for Charge, or maybe even Colossi, you're not going to have the infrastructure to handle mid-game banshee harass because you need to be able to send your anti-air between bases quickly. Stalkers without blink are going to get wrecked by 3-4 banshees fighting together, if you don't have enough stalkers around. If you leave just 2 stalkers around at each base, by that point, you're going to take a ton of damage from the harassment.
My point is this: If you're either taking a third base or you're at least about fully saturated on 2 and looking towards taking that third base, and that's when Banshees are coming out of the woodwork, that's when you should get Phoenixes. If you think about it, 150/150 will go into either Blink or a Stargate. If you get a Stargate, you won't need to build more stalkers, so if you build 3 Phoenixes instead of 6 blink Stalkers for defense, you're spending the same amount of gas to thwart the Banshees, and as an added bonus you get a new form of map presence where the dropships are taking a big risk when they move out on their own, since you functionally have a group of 'toss mutas out on the map. You know that banshees take up gas and starport time, so if he's making them at that stage in the game (which is happening in the metagame), then you're not investing as much into the solution as your opponent is investing into the threat.
Now, maybe SoulAbyss94 was talking about just the 1-1-1 or something similar to that, but I figured with all the tons of information on this site about dealing with those banshee timings and followups, he would be able to figure that out with the search button. Or he could have posted a replay, so we actually know what's going on in his games.
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On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army.
I believe countering with a stargate and phoenixes is not good, since you are left with phoenixes that take a lot of your gas. I believe the best counter is, if you are dealing with 1 starport, means probably not more than 2 maybe 3 banshees. In that case, just put 1 observer in your main and 1 in your natural, and warp some stalkers. Add a cannon too later on. That should take care of it. But - if you scout double starport, that means you will be dealing with a large number of banshees, and quite too often a raven for point defense drone. Stalkers simply cant beat that, unless you have a huge food lead, which won't be the case 99% of the time at that point into the game. The proper counter to mass banshee in my opinion, is to scout well and once scouted, to tech for twilight council, rush for templar archives and then research blink. Do not get the colossus tech. The reasoning behind this, is that templars can feedback banshees very effectively dropping them to very low health or killing them, while they can warp into an archon, which deals splash damage to air, and does not get countered by point defense drone, as it is not a missile attack. Further more, research storm to make your templars even more efficient, as most sky terrans in TvP will rarely get marauders, since all their gas goes into sky tech, so you will be dealing with a lot of marines, in which case, having blink stalkers / archons / templars with storms counter greatly both ground and air. Do not get zealots as they will be useless against banshees.
*Templars can feed back ravens and point defense drones, rendering them useless in fights.
Hope this helps :-)
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Ive just came back to laddering after a few months off. I was in diamond on EU before i left, and now im in platinum. Got 2 questions to ask, one short one a bit longer.
1. What maps do toss veto atm? Ive got TDA atm (ive had that one veto since it was 'popular' all those seasons ago. Such a bad P map) are there any others that people dont tend to play on? I know its all the players choice, and im not gonna veto maps just because thats what toss are doing atm, im just curious as to what maps toss dont like playing on.
2. belive it or not that was the short question  Antiga shipyard. firstly i dont see many ladder games on this map, Is that just bad luck or do people not like it? anyway, before i took a break, a really popular stratergy in PvZ on this map was the voidray/zealot+1 timing. I just got this MU on this map, and i was bottom left and the Z top left - perfect positions to try this. It worked really well. I just wondered if people still used this build? or is it easy for Z to stop it?
Thanks for the help
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Italy12246 Posts
I veto condemnded ridge as well; i hate shakuras and antiga pvz too but i just to silly 2base crap on those and it works out kind of ok.
+1 zealot void ray is kind of outdated these days as zergs are getting better and better and defending such timings, but honestly that's only at high level. I consistently take out a zerg's third or force enough units to be ahead with a 4gate zealot timing in master so at lower level i would imagine a build like that would be even more effective.
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On August 19 2012 05:54 Teoita wrote:
I veto condemnded ridge as well; i hate shakuras and antiga pvz too but i just to silly 2base crap on those and it works out kind of ok.
+1 zealot void ray is kind of outdated these days as zergs are getting better and better and defending such timings, but honestly that's only at high level. I consistently take out a zerg's third or force enough units to be ahead with a 4gate zealot timing in master so at lower level i would imagine a build like that would be even more effective.
hmmm i remember a while ago that voidray/zealot timing was used in all leagues. I watched axslav do it nearly every single PvZ on antiga with sucess, i used it alot in diamond, and i knew people in gold who were trying it too
what is it that zergs are doing that shut it down? when my 2 voidrays and 7 zealots got into his 3rd he was hatching roaches already, i still managed to take out the third twice. I thought early roaches were the counter to this, but his didnt work out so well
i think ill play on all but TDA, i was just wondering
i dont see most of the maps, i get alot of ohana/daybreak/cloudkingdom
hope they remove the likes of TDA and bring in some new maps in the next season
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Italy12246 Posts
Mostly, in theory, they got their lair/queen/roach warren/drone timings down a lot better than a few months ago. Here's kcdc explaining it a lot better in his original post, it's a bit old but a good read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=320894
As i said though, that is only for a much higher level of play than even me, so if it keeps working for you go for it
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On August 19 2012 05:13 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2012 18:33 Abusion wrote:On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play. Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights. Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map. I made an assumption that this was banshee play in the mid-game, not opening up to the 1-1-1 or some kind of mech. Lately, there has been an increasingly popular timing in PvT where the Terran gets delayed cloaked banshees because it attacks from a different metaphorical angle at about the same time when the normal Stim/+1/Medivac timing would hit. So the protoss is going down a tech path or two and investing heavily into dealing with the bio push, then cloaked units show up and do a bunch of damage. By this point in time, you're in the process of getting stuff to handle drops. If you're getting Blink, then you probably can handle Banshee play just fine with a couple more observers and/or maybe a cannon at each mineral line for detection. But if it's not the best map for blink or you otherwise decided to go straight for Charge, or maybe even Colossi, you're not going to have the infrastructure to handle mid-game banshee harass because you need to be able to send your anti-air between bases quickly. Stalkers without blink are going to get wrecked by 3-4 banshees fighting together, if you don't have enough stalkers around. If you leave just 2 stalkers around at each base, by that point, you're going to take a ton of damage from the harassment. My point is this: If you're either taking a third base or you're at least about fully saturated on 2 and looking towards taking that third base, and that's when Banshees are coming out of the woodwork, that's when you should get Phoenixes. If you think about it, 150/150 will go into either Blink or a Stargate. If you get a Stargate, you won't need to build more stalkers, so if you build 3 Phoenixes instead of 6 blink Stalkers for defense, you're spending the same amount of gas to thwart the Banshees, and as an added bonus you get a new form of map presence where the dropships are taking a big risk when they move out on their own, since you functionally have a group of 'toss mutas out on the map. You know that banshees take up gas and starport time, so if he's making them at that stage in the game (which is happening in the metagame), then you're not investing as much into the solution as your opponent is investing into the threat. Now, maybe SoulAbyss94 was talking about just the 1-1-1 or something similar to that, but I figured with all the tons of information on this site about dealing with those banshee timings and followups, he would be able to figure that out with the search button. Or he could have posted a replay, so we actually know what's going on in his games.
I've got to be honest I've never ever seen a Terran go mid-game banshee's. I therefore cannot give sound advice on facing a 10:30 banshee.
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Italy12246 Posts
On August 19 2012 06:39 Abusion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 05:13 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 18:33 Abusion wrote:On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play. Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights. Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map. I made an assumption that this was banshee play in the mid-game, not opening up to the 1-1-1 or some kind of mech. Lately, there has been an increasingly popular timing in PvT where the Terran gets delayed cloaked banshees because it attacks from a different metaphorical angle at about the same time when the normal Stim/+1/Medivac timing would hit. So the protoss is going down a tech path or two and investing heavily into dealing with the bio push, then cloaked units show up and do a bunch of damage. By this point in time, you're in the process of getting stuff to handle drops. If you're getting Blink, then you probably can handle Banshee play just fine with a couple more observers and/or maybe a cannon at each mineral line for detection. But if it's not the best map for blink or you otherwise decided to go straight for Charge, or maybe even Colossi, you're not going to have the infrastructure to handle mid-game banshee harass because you need to be able to send your anti-air between bases quickly. Stalkers without blink are going to get wrecked by 3-4 banshees fighting together, if you don't have enough stalkers around. If you leave just 2 stalkers around at each base, by that point, you're going to take a ton of damage from the harassment. My point is this: If you're either taking a third base or you're at least about fully saturated on 2 and looking towards taking that third base, and that's when Banshees are coming out of the woodwork, that's when you should get Phoenixes. If you think about it, 150/150 will go into either Blink or a Stargate. If you get a Stargate, you won't need to build more stalkers, so if you build 3 Phoenixes instead of 6 blink Stalkers for defense, you're spending the same amount of gas to thwart the Banshees, and as an added bonus you get a new form of map presence where the dropships are taking a big risk when they move out on their own, since you functionally have a group of 'toss mutas out on the map. You know that banshees take up gas and starport time, so if he's making them at that stage in the game (which is happening in the metagame), then you're not investing as much into the solution as your opponent is investing into the threat. Now, maybe SoulAbyss94 was talking about just the 1-1-1 or something similar to that, but I figured with all the tons of information on this site about dealing with those banshee timings and followups, he would be able to figure that out with the search button. Or he could have posted a replay, so we actually know what's going on in his games. I've got to be honest I've never ever seen a Terran go mid-game banshee's. I therefore cannot give sound advice on facing a 10:30 banshee.
2base cloak banshee hits at around 9 minutes and it's popular as a followup to 1rax fe is the Terran is doing some sort of 2base tech based push like marine/thor/banshee or marine/tank/banshee.
Even in that situation though, i agree that going phoenix is silly.
On the other hand, it might be a necessary reaction to sky terran type play (at least 2 starports making banshees). Honestly i have never faced sky terran nor seen it in a high level match so i don't know.
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On August 19 2012 06:45 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 06:39 Abusion wrote:On August 19 2012 05:13 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 18:33 Abusion wrote:On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play. Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights. Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map. I made an assumption that this was banshee play in the mid-game, not opening up to the 1-1-1 or some kind of mech. Lately, there has been an increasingly popular timing in PvT where the Terran gets delayed cloaked banshees because it attacks from a different metaphorical angle at about the same time when the normal Stim/+1/Medivac timing would hit. So the protoss is going down a tech path or two and investing heavily into dealing with the bio push, then cloaked units show up and do a bunch of damage. By this point in time, you're in the process of getting stuff to handle drops. If you're getting Blink, then you probably can handle Banshee play just fine with a couple more observers and/or maybe a cannon at each mineral line for detection. But if it's not the best map for blink or you otherwise decided to go straight for Charge, or maybe even Colossi, you're not going to have the infrastructure to handle mid-game banshee harass because you need to be able to send your anti-air between bases quickly. Stalkers without blink are going to get wrecked by 3-4 banshees fighting together, if you don't have enough stalkers around. If you leave just 2 stalkers around at each base, by that point, you're going to take a ton of damage from the harassment. My point is this: If you're either taking a third base or you're at least about fully saturated on 2 and looking towards taking that third base, and that's when Banshees are coming out of the woodwork, that's when you should get Phoenixes. If you think about it, 150/150 will go into either Blink or a Stargate. If you get a Stargate, you won't need to build more stalkers, so if you build 3 Phoenixes instead of 6 blink Stalkers for defense, you're spending the same amount of gas to thwart the Banshees, and as an added bonus you get a new form of map presence where the dropships are taking a big risk when they move out on their own, since you functionally have a group of 'toss mutas out on the map. You know that banshees take up gas and starport time, so if he's making them at that stage in the game (which is happening in the metagame), then you're not investing as much into the solution as your opponent is investing into the threat. Now, maybe SoulAbyss94 was talking about just the 1-1-1 or something similar to that, but I figured with all the tons of information on this site about dealing with those banshee timings and followups, he would be able to figure that out with the search button. Or he could have posted a replay, so we actually know what's going on in his games. I've got to be honest I've never ever seen a Terran go mid-game banshee's. I therefore cannot give sound advice on facing a 10:30 banshee. 2base cloak banshee hits at around 9 minutes and it's popular as a followup to 1rax fe is the Terran is doing some sort of 2base tech based push like marine/thor/banshee or marine/tank/banshee. Even in that situation though, i agree that going phoenix is silly. On the other hand, it might be a necessary reaction to sky terran type play (at least 2 starports making banshees). Honestly i have never faced sky terran nor seen it in a high level match so i don't know.
I've faced cloak banshee off of 2 base but I've felt that this is used to force stalkers which marine/tank/banshee play is good against and slows down your tech and is not designed to get a lot of probe kills and not for "keeping me contained and splitting my army".
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On August 19 2012 06:45 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 06:39 Abusion wrote:On August 19 2012 05:13 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 18:33 Abusion wrote:On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play. Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights. Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map. I made an assumption that this was banshee play in the mid-game, not opening up to the 1-1-1 or some kind of mech. Lately, there has been an increasingly popular timing in PvT where the Terran gets delayed cloaked banshees because it attacks from a different metaphorical angle at about the same time when the normal Stim/+1/Medivac timing would hit. So the protoss is going down a tech path or two and investing heavily into dealing with the bio push, then cloaked units show up and do a bunch of damage. By this point in time, you're in the process of getting stuff to handle drops. If you're getting Blink, then you probably can handle Banshee play just fine with a couple more observers and/or maybe a cannon at each mineral line for detection. But if it's not the best map for blink or you otherwise decided to go straight for Charge, or maybe even Colossi, you're not going to have the infrastructure to handle mid-game banshee harass because you need to be able to send your anti-air between bases quickly. Stalkers without blink are going to get wrecked by 3-4 banshees fighting together, if you don't have enough stalkers around. If you leave just 2 stalkers around at each base, by that point, you're going to take a ton of damage from the harassment. My point is this: If you're either taking a third base or you're at least about fully saturated on 2 and looking towards taking that third base, and that's when Banshees are coming out of the woodwork, that's when you should get Phoenixes. If you think about it, 150/150 will go into either Blink or a Stargate. If you get a Stargate, you won't need to build more stalkers, so if you build 3 Phoenixes instead of 6 blink Stalkers for defense, you're spending the same amount of gas to thwart the Banshees, and as an added bonus you get a new form of map presence where the dropships are taking a big risk when they move out on their own, since you functionally have a group of 'toss mutas out on the map. You know that banshees take up gas and starport time, so if he's making them at that stage in the game (which is happening in the metagame), then you're not investing as much into the solution as your opponent is investing into the threat. Now, maybe SoulAbyss94 was talking about just the 1-1-1 or something similar to that, but I figured with all the tons of information on this site about dealing with those banshee timings and followups, he would be able to figure that out with the search button. Or he could have posted a replay, so we actually know what's going on in his games. I've got to be honest I've never ever seen a Terran go mid-game banshee's. I therefore cannot give sound advice on facing a 10:30 banshee. 2base cloak banshee hits at around 9 minutes and it's popular as a followup to 1rax fe is the Terran is doing some sort of 2base tech based push like marine/thor/banshee or marine/tank/banshee. Even in that situation though, i agree that going phoenix is silly. On the other hand, it might be a necessary reaction to sky terran type play (at least 2 starports making banshees). Honestly i have never faced sky terran nor seen it in a high level match so i don't know.
I face sky terran styles fairly frequently in master league (maybe 1 out of every 10 to 15 pvts). It's pretty unpleasant to play against, but phoenixes and eventually observer speed are required to keep yourself afloat until you can get a nice templar force. Even still I've often lost to this, so maybe there's a better way to handle it. I've seen it played several ways, but the most common style is mass banshees --> slowly integrating vikings and ravens --> battlecruisers. Marine squadrons are used to attack wherever you aren't defending, and his bases are all planetaries (often multiple planetaries at each location). Storm has the potential to devastate this composition, but you can also get caught without observers (because the vikings snipe them with the raven's vision) and get all of your templar picked off. Cannons are worthless unless you get a billion, because more than a few banshees can focus down cannons almost instantly.
The marine/thor/banshee 2 base play is really strong, too.
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On August 19 2012 08:00 threshy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 06:45 Teoita wrote:On August 19 2012 06:39 Abusion wrote:On August 19 2012 05:13 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 18:33 Abusion wrote:On August 18 2012 14:59 ineversmile wrote:On August 18 2012 09:32 SoulAbyss94 wrote:
Has anyone seen a startling increase in banshee play in PvT? Im not really sure what to do against cloak banshees that are keeping me contained and splitting my army. Build a Stargate and make a squad of Phoenixes. If it's not a 1-1-1 all-in or heavy tech-based pressure opening and you're facing cloaked banshees 10+ minutes into the game, you can afford to invest into a harder counter than simply stalkers. Phoenixes will shut down the harassment completely and give you the ability to move out with a more cohesive force, and then you can use them in battle to help your Colossi against Vikings and to pick off straggling units. Or if you're not yet engaging in major army battles and you've effectively shut down/deterred the harassment, you can go over and pick off workers like it's PvZ and make back some of that money you invested into the air units. The squad of Phoenixes could just be 3 of them, which is enough to handle banshees or to pick off an escaping dropship. The whole point is to make it so that the terran is losing money by harassing; if it's economical for him to attack you, he will continue to do it all game long. Right now, most people basically ignore the existence of Stargate units for the PvT match-up. That doesn't mean they know what they're missing. Having actual air units makes it a heck of a lot easier to deal with banshees or to punish drop play. Erm, I'm pretty sure this is bad advice. If you reactively go phoenix against banshee I feel that puts a Protoss at an even bigger disadvantage than if he took a couple of probe kills. Sinking all that gas into a stargate and 3 phoenix that aren't going to do anything at all in the next 5 minutes or so and don't help at all in big fights. Since the original question didn't have a problem with scouting it I would say this. If you go MC 1 gate expand and get a robo you should hold with minimal damage. Keep an obs at each base with 2 stalkers. If he turns up with 2 banshee's at a base then just warp in another stalker to scare him away (if he has more than 2 banshee's he's probably 1-1-1ing you or doing some weird mech play) in the mid game you can plant a cannon or two near your mineral line to stop a banshee coming in while you are out on the map. I made an assumption that this was banshee play in the mid-game, not opening up to the 1-1-1 or some kind of mech. Lately, there has been an increasingly popular timing in PvT where the Terran gets delayed cloaked banshees because it attacks from a different metaphorical angle at about the same time when the normal Stim/+1/Medivac timing would hit. So the protoss is going down a tech path or two and investing heavily into dealing with the bio push, then cloaked units show up and do a bunch of damage. By this point in time, you're in the process of getting stuff to handle drops. If you're getting Blink, then you probably can handle Banshee play just fine with a couple more observers and/or maybe a cannon at each mineral line for detection. But if it's not the best map for blink or you otherwise decided to go straight for Charge, or maybe even Colossi, you're not going to have the infrastructure to handle mid-game banshee harass because you need to be able to send your anti-air between bases quickly. Stalkers without blink are going to get wrecked by 3-4 banshees fighting together, if you don't have enough stalkers around. If you leave just 2 stalkers around at each base, by that point, you're going to take a ton of damage from the harassment. My point is this: If you're either taking a third base or you're at least about fully saturated on 2 and looking towards taking that third base, and that's when Banshees are coming out of the woodwork, that's when you should get Phoenixes. If you think about it, 150/150 will go into either Blink or a Stargate. If you get a Stargate, you won't need to build more stalkers, so if you build 3 Phoenixes instead of 6 blink Stalkers for defense, you're spending the same amount of gas to thwart the Banshees, and as an added bonus you get a new form of map presence where the dropships are taking a big risk when they move out on their own, since you functionally have a group of 'toss mutas out on the map. You know that banshees take up gas and starport time, so if he's making them at that stage in the game (which is happening in the metagame), then you're not investing as much into the solution as your opponent is investing into the threat. Now, maybe SoulAbyss94 was talking about just the 1-1-1 or something similar to that, but I figured with all the tons of information on this site about dealing with those banshee timings and followups, he would be able to figure that out with the search button. Or he could have posted a replay, so we actually know what's going on in his games. I've got to be honest I've never ever seen a Terran go mid-game banshee's. I therefore cannot give sound advice on facing a 10:30 banshee. 2base cloak banshee hits at around 9 minutes and it's popular as a followup to 1rax fe is the Terran is doing some sort of 2base tech based push like marine/thor/banshee or marine/tank/banshee. Even in that situation though, i agree that going phoenix is silly. On the other hand, it might be a necessary reaction to sky terran type play (at least 2 starports making banshees). Honestly i have never faced sky terran nor seen it in a high level match so i don't know. I face sky terran styles fairly frequently in master league (maybe 1 out of every 10 to 15 pvts). It's pretty unpleasant to play against, but phoenixes and eventually observer speed are required to keep yourself afloat until you can get a nice templar force. Even still I've often lost to this, so maybe there's a better way to handle it. I've seen it played several ways, but the most common style is mass banshees --> slowly integrating vikings and ravens --> battlecruisers. Marine squadrons are used to attack wherever you aren't defending, and his bases are all planetaries (often multiple planetaries at each location). Storm has the potential to devastate this composition, but you can also get caught without observers (because the vikings snipe them with the raven's vision) and get all of your templar picked off. Cannons are worthless unless you get a billion, because more than a few banshees can focus down cannons almost instantly. The marine/thor/banshee 2 base play is really strong, too. As a Terran who used to go Sky Terran, I have to say that later on phoenix plus zealots to harass the Terran when he's going pure Air is the best way to kill him IMO, while building a few cannons and warpgates with your extra minerals to ward off small groups of banshees harassing your base.
The reason this works I think is because phoenix are really fast and have shields, so you can run in, kill some SCV's that are on gas, and get out before the Terran's missile turrets do too much damage to you. This forces him to make lots of turrets when he would rather get more CC's, gas, and SCV's. The zealots work because it takes 4 shots from a PF just to kill one; a few zealots can get several SCV kills before dying, and it's really annoying from a Terran perspective since he has to run around his SCV's then put them back in gas, possibly having to rebuild some gas. Hold-positioning Stalkers behind the minerals/gas can also work, and they can blink away if you notice his air fleet coming in, though it will need a very quick reaction.
Since your Phoenix fleet will be faster, if you notice his sky force is small you can run in and decimate most of it, snowballing into a win.
You will need HT's later to storm his banshees and feedback his ravens and eventual BC's; you really don't want him to yamato/HSM your phoenix and voidrays(voids are more effective against BC's and they aren't affected by PDD).
Though I have not played in a while, so my advice may be crap. 
Edit: I also highly recommend air attack upgrades. Phoenix do 5x2(+5 vs light) damage about every second, with +1 per attack upgrade, so 20% more damage than base for every upgrade.
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http://drop.sc/240297
Can someone watch my PvP replay and tell me what I need to improve on?
I have more replays available (PvZ, PvT, PvP, etc.) if needed for constructive criticism.
At the moment I am a high bronze player although I find many matches to be "too easy"
I didn't do the placement matches so that may be the cause.
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Hi protoss gurus of TL .
I'm looking to get back into 1v1s. The last time I played 1s in earnest was probably like ~6 months ago or so. My skill level back then was low diamond / high plat. level. I've read a thread or two that suggested that practicing many games using all-ins is a good way to get one's mechanics up and quickly improve. I have always been a macro player, and I was a little skeptical. But one article that was referenced in one of their posts brought to light that this could be beneficial, and I've decided to go forward with trying out allins.:
http://scdojo.tumblr.com/post/24330196542/learning-the-game-in-phases-some-quick-thoughts
So hate on me all you want, but I feel that until I can learn to execute the first 10 minutes of a game flawlessly, I have no hope of ever getting into master's, which is my current end goal. To that end, what are some solid 2 base all-in builds I can execute vs. each race? I'm looking to strengthen my micro mechanics in the process, so I'm looking for diversity in unit compositions if at all possible. A blink all-in, or an all-in heavily using forcefields, for example, would be nice.
Also, allins that implement some solid early harrassment would be great for the sake of forcing me to better learn how to micro my units without missing a macro production cycle (something which I did quite often...).
The only 2-base allins I see with any frequency are in PvZ, where both immortal sentry all-ins and blink allins are considered pretty strong. I might want to try both as my forcefield and blink micro both could use improvement.
But versus Terran and Protoss, what solid 2-base allins are there? I haven't seen much for either. There seems to be cutesy one-base allins for both (like 1-base collo allin versus Protoss or 4gate warp prism versus terran), which I suppose I could resort to. But I feel 2-base allins would be better for me right now, since even at two bases I mess up my macro quite often, and I feel if I could learn to execute 2-base allins well that will put me in a better position to master more macro-heavy play in the future.
To be clear: I'm not looking for the "easy way to master's." I'm not expecting to 2-base my way into master's, though it would be great if I could. I'm looking at this as more of a starting point from which I can launch into more macro heavy play.
If you could suggest an all-in for each matchup that would work at the diamond/low-master level, and that would help improve my micro, I would appreciate it .
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EPT
