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eugalp
United States203 Posts
On July 16 2012 09:56 Mr.Bimbles wrote: I didn't get get an answer for my questions  Here is a bit dated but still excellent guide to Blink/Robo http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772 Here are builds designed to stop 4 gate: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=256711 | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On July 16 2012 01:11 Abusion wrote: It depends how many roaches and lings there are. If it's his whole army I would warp in a couple of sentry's by my ramp and save all my probes from the nat and then delay him by my wall then go up the ramp and keep forcefielding him off. You can destroy his nat and main and then go round and kill his army. However, its a lot harder with a blink stalker all-in than a immortal one. It's hard but doable. oh that make sense... I don't know how that never occurred to me, I was trying to do some crazy split crap where I bring most of my army home. I guess you could perma-stall main ramp with 4-5 sentries and eventually push through with your main army. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On July 16 2012 09:56 Mr.Bimbles wrote: I didn't get get an answer for my questions 1. Three stalker rush saving up to 75 chrono boost energy when core finishes and a third gate before a tech structure should literally always hold a 4 gate. Just poke immediately below your ramp with your 3 stalkers and then return straight home, if you go out and try to take a watchtower he can sneak past sometimes. 2. Twilight+robotics with blink and observers is sort of the most safe and standard build, it doesn't get hard countered by anything and has some sort of answer to everything, though it does force you to go 1 base allin against some of the greedier robo based expands. Its veeerrrryyy technical and difficult to play, but you'll never experience a build order loss using it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=249772 3. Impossible question to answer, but generally expand when you feel safe from early tech pressure but also believe your opponent is heading for an expansion himself but does not have it already and if he does he did not get it more than a minute in game time before you did unless you have a significant tech advantage. | ||
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iremnant3847
Taiwan269 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 16 2012 12:11 vizi wrote: (Protoss v Terran)Ever since my 1Gate F.E into Templar build has been improving at a fast rate, I've been thinking of adding a 1-base play strategy that can punish Terrans who go for a 1-Rax F.E. What build do you guys recommend? Links would be awesome. 1 rax fe isn't something that's easily punishable without a (blind) one base all-in, all of which rely on Terran just not knowing how to hold/reacting poorly/controlling poorly etc. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 16 2012 12:11 vizi wrote: (Protoss v Terran)Ever since my 1Gate F.E into Templar build has been improving at a fast rate, I've been thinking of adding a 1-base play strategy that can punish Terrans who go for a 1-Rax F.E. What build do you guys recommend? Links would be awesome. If you're both 1 Rax/1Gate expoing, it's about an even footing. Neither of you should really be able to break each other without going all in or having some kind of tech advantage. There are some good timings and a few different harassments you can do to get an advantage on the Terran from that point in time, but for the most part I agree with the above guy that 1Rax FE is pretty safe for Terran. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 16 2012 12:11 vizi wrote: (Protoss v Terran)Ever since my 1Gate F.E into Templar build has been improving at a fast rate, I've been thinking of adding a 1-base play strategy that can punish Terrans who go for a 1-Rax F.E. What build do you guys recommend? Links would be awesome. From a terran perspective, the only really good builds to "punish" 1-rax expand are 1) unscouted 4-gate, 2) cannon rush, 3) zealot rush, 4) zealot/cannon rush. Basically, cheese. 1-rax FE is designed to be the safest way to expand, much like pool first for zerg. It's not really a punishable thing. The more important thing is probably to abuse the followup: things like 5rax or 1-1-1 builds take a little time to get off the ground, so a delayed 4-gate or an immortal 4-gate will certainly be more difficult for the terran to deal with, but, in general, the terran will respond to not seeing an early expo and throw down extra bunkers, play defensive, and be perfectly safe. | ||
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iremnant3847
Taiwan269 Posts
I have another question regarding PvZ: When they go Stargate after a Forge F.E, why do Professional players always 'save' Phoenix until he or she has around three or more? I was watching NASL and players such as HerO, Puzzle, and Alicia always move out with at least 4 Phoenix to accompany the initial Void Ray. What advantages does a Stargate build provide over a 2base all-in? What are its shortcomings? Does anyone have a modern build order involving a Stargate after Forge F.E? | ||
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HexSCII
Canada115 Posts
On July 16 2012 14:25 vizi wrote: Thanks to rd, ineversmile, and sc2john for replying. Judging by each of your replies, I think I'm just going to polish my current build to perfection. I have another question regarding PvZ: When they go Stargate after a Forge F.E, why do Professional players always 'save' Phoenix until he or she has around three or more? I was watching NASL and players such as HerO, Puzzle, and Alicia always move out with at least 4 Phoenix to accompany the initial Void Ray. What advantages does a Stargate build provide over a 2base all-in? What are its shortcomings? Does anyone have a modern build order involving a Stargate after Forge F.E? Well to answer your question, 1 phoenix doesn't do anything. Literally it DOES not do anything. 2 would mean that only 1 is attacking which is really slow. So pros wait till they have 3-4 phoenixes to go harass. The initial void ray is to check the map for free overlords and to take the towers. Plus void rays are slow so they take time to get cross map. A stargate build really helps you to scout out your zerg opponent. You could potentially take out the third with your void ray. If you go phoenix first then you could hunt for overlords. Alot of zergs on the ladder bunch them up at the back of their main. Find the motherload and start sniping. The shortcoming however is that you can't stop a 2 base all-in from zerg. You don't have the economy to and 1 void ray isn't going to do anything. A good and bad is that, you have to take the 3rd early to stimulate your eco. The problem is, if the zerg is good then they might counter and you would have to cancel & that would make you feel behind and pressured etc etc. I have a little question of my own. I have been having trouble with mass marine pushes with medivacs and stim. I scout it perfectly and have collosus up in time but I just can't seem to hold it off without taking significant damage. ie, loss of nat or loss of units. If I face it again, should I aim for an all-in(1 base or 2base?) or turtle up? | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 16 2012 14:25 vizi wrote: Thanks to rd, ineversmile, and sc2john for replying. Judging by each of your replies, I think I'm just going to polish my current build to perfection. I have another question regarding PvZ: When they go Stargate after a Forge F.E, why do Professional players always 'save' Phoenix until he or she has around three or more? I was watching NASL and players such as HerO, Puzzle, and Alicia always move out with at least 4 Phoenix to accompany the initial Void Ray. What advantages does a Stargate build provide over a 2base all-in? What are its shortcomings? You can do one of three things when going Stargate: 1. Send out your first air unit to scout immediately. 2. Send out your first air unit to hunt overlords around your base to deny further scouting from the zerg 3. Not send out air units until you have a group of Phoenixes that go together. The main thing about going later is that you're less likely to run into Spores with Phoenixes, which means a much easier time killing Queens and a less micro-intensive drone-hunting session. It also sometimes means just less Queens in general, since those take a very tangible period of time to build and one or two queens make a giant difference in the realm of fending off air harassment. The other benefit to waiting is that your phoenixes bank energy gradually, which means more grav lifts by the time you go to harass, which means even higher potential damage if your opponent didn't guess you were going Phoenixes and you show up at his base with high energy on 4-5 of them. On July 16 2012 14:51 HexSCII wrote:A stargate build really helps you to scout out your zerg opponent. You could potentially take out the third with your void ray. If you go phoenix first then you could hunt for overlords. Alot of zergs on the ladder bunch them up at the back of their main. Find the motherload and start sniping. The shortcoming however is that you can't stop a 2 base all-in from zerg. You don't have the economy to and 1 void ray isn't going to do anything. A good and bad is that, you have to take the 3rd early to stimulate your eco. The problem is, if the zerg is good then they might counter and you would have to cancel & that would make you feel behind and pressured etc etc. I agree with most of this, but not the part about all-ins. A Void Ray is actually really good against Roach busts because it puts a clock on the Roaches and whatever else is sitting in range of your Void Ray. When roaches are around, the Void either gets charged or it forces the all-in away--which is a win-win scenario. So if you smell out a 2-base all-in and you're in Stargate tech, your goal should be to park a Void right outside your natural and turtle up hard with more cannons, sentries, and sim-city. I have a little question of my own. I have been having trouble with mass marine pushes with medivacs and stim. I scout it perfectly and have collosus up in time but I just can't seem to hold it off without taking significant damage. ie, loss of nat or loss of units. If I face it again, should I aim for an all-in(1 base or 2base?) or turtle up? Well, a couple of things matter. If you have 1 Colossus without range, that's not necessarily enough to deal with the timing against a good player wtih a good M+M spread or a split attack. However, if you have 2 Colossi you can split your army in half, or if you have range you can dominate that army pretty hard with good Colossus positioning. I would have to see replays to give further advice, but I personally prefer to go for fast Colossi to deal with the Medivac/+1/Stim timing, and it works for me when I'm not cutting corners or making big mistakes. | ||
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Chandra
United States123 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On July 16 2012 16:10 Chandra wrote: How do you respond to a stargate opening when opening with a fast robo in PvP? From what I hear an immortal expand is essentially a BO loss versus a phoenix all-in, so should I be waiting to expand until I scout his tech? I usually open with 1 blind immortal for safety, but I'm a little unsure about when it's safe to produce additional immortals or take my nexus if I don't have scouting information. You're going to suffer a deficit pretty much no matter what with a robo opener vs. a stargate opener. If your plan was to expand, you should still stick with it, and figure out a way to hold it (depending on the map, throwing down a forge and some cannons can be viable to hold it), but the only other real option is to just abandon your tech and start warping in stalkers to defend, and keep your units clumped so they don't get picked off. It's a really hard position to play from because your opponent can see everything you are doing. The phoenix all-in on one base is pretty much a build order win vs. robo expand though, unless you force some mistakes. It's one of the reasons I don't like robo expand as a build, a good solid pvp build should be a build that cannot be blind countered into an almost unwinnable position. That's why I feel that in general, phoenix and blink openers are generally the best in the matchup. | ||
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HexSCII
Canada115 Posts
The phoenix all-in on one base is pretty much a build order win vs. robo expand though, unless you force some mistakes. It's one of the reasons I don't like robo expand as a build, a good solid pvp build should be a build that cannot be blind countered into an almost unwinnable position. That's why I feel that in general, phoenix and blink openers are generally the best in the matchup.[/QUOTE] Blink openers are still pretty difficult to pull off as most players go with the fast robo. So by the time you are pressuring the ramp with blink, there is already an immortal there. | ||
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Ashent
Korea (South)109 Posts
The phoenix all-in on one base is pretty much a build order win vs. robo expand though, unless you force some mistakes. It's one of the reasons I don't like robo expand as a build, a good solid pvp build should be a build that cannot be blind countered into an almost unwinnable position. That's why I feel that in general, phoenix and blink openers are generally the best in the matchup. Blink openers are still pretty difficult to pull off as most players go with the fast robo. So by the time you are pressuring the ramp with blink, there is already an immortal there. This is how I feel too. Every time I convince myself that I should start trying blink, it gets destroyed by every build out there except for blind stargate openers. | ||
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
http://drop.sc/222972 Guy floats 5k minerals, I spend my money much more, I harass and kill tech, I forcefield the best I can against his roaches, he amoves and wins. This is not fun for me. I am all for a balanced game, but this at the moment is just stupid. The roach is imbalanced at levels where the protoss player can't get literally perfect forcefields, I'm no pro at this but this is just crap. I even harass, kill all his major tech and still can't beat him. What more do I have to do to beat zerg? | ||
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Jaeger
United States1150 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:19 Tao367 wrote: Every time I play zerg as a diamond player I get angry, I just can't beat them. http://drop.sc/222972 Guy floats 5k minerals, I spend my money much more, I harass and kill tech, I forcefield the best I can against his roaches, he amoves and wins. This is not fun for me. I am all for a balanced game, but this at the moment is just stupid. The roach is imbalanced at levels where the protoss player can't get literally perfect forcefields, I'm no pro at this but this is just crap. I even harass, kill all his major tech and still can't beat him. What more do I have to do to beat zerg? There is so much you can improve on in that replay. No reason to complain here. See [G] Analysing Replays A few examples: Get better at making probes. Refine your build. You're on 2bases at 16 minutes 130 supply with a zealot/stalker/sentry army and a single immortal against a 4 base maxed zerg. Your "harass" was trading 9 dts for a hive and a spire then dying to the counter attack. Followed by a 9 minute death animation because your opponent was bad at producing units. You had zero map vision and didn't have a chance to see his giant army barreling down on you until it was ontop of you. Put an observer at your 4th to spot units coming up the ramp into your 3rd, take your watch tower with a zealot, and put a pylon out to spot for attacks coming from the side into your 3rd. Realistically though just find a replay/vod of a progamer playing a build that you like and mimic it until you can match their unit/building count at their timings. | ||
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Poffel
471 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:19 Tao367 wrote: Every time I play zerg as a diamond player I get angry, I just can't beat them. http://drop.sc/222972 Guy floats 5k minerals, I spend my money much more, I harass and kill tech, I forcefield the best I can against his roaches, he amoves and wins. This is not fun for me. I am all for a balanced game, but this at the moment is just stupid. The roach is imbalanced at levels where the protoss player can't get literally perfect forcefields, I'm no pro at this but this is just crap. I even harass, kill all his major tech and still can't beat him. What more do I have to do to beat zerg? The following may sound harsh, and I don't intend to offend you, but I don't agree with your analysis of that game at all. First of all, while I agree with you that your opponent's marco wasn't good, you made quite a few mistakes yourself in that regard. Most importantly, your third was very late. The first time you tried to establish it is in minute 15, so you're far behind income-wise throughout most of the game. That the saturation at your main and natural are far from optimal (41 probes at the natural?) doesn't help either. To put it bluntly, that he's floating a bank doesn't mean that he didn't spend much more than you, and calling him out for bad macro isn't really adequate here; in my opinion, you would be better of practicing your own macro. On a sidenote, there is no way that you can afford 13 gateways, 2 robos, Colossus- and DT-tech from just two bases if your macro doesn't slip badly. Secondly, in regard to your harass, I think you may be overestimating the damage you have done. Your cannon rush simply failed and put you behind from the start. You lost 487 minerals, which is quite a huge investment during that phase of the game, and you did zero damage. Next, you warped nine (!) DTs into his main to destroy his morphing hive and his spire. Even though you took out quite a bit of tech here, I wouldn't deem this harass effective because, once again, you lost much more than him. This was especially risky since you knew that he had detection, given that overseers and changelings had already scouted your base. Your later harassment with zealots was ok and did quite a bit of damage, but at that time he was already so far ahead that he could indeed have a-moved into your base. Third, even though he could have, he didn't exactly a-move into your base, but caught you off guard multiple times in a row. He took down your third almost uncontested, he destroyed both your Colossi and the majority of your sentries when they were isolated from the rest of your army, and he took advantage of choke positions and burrow. To sum up, I would recommend you to work on your macro, especially things like not missing production cycles, and on saturating bases and securing expansions in a more timely manner. Also, you should be a bit more careful about the way you are harassing, because if you invest tons of resources into an attack, it should better do at least an equal amount of harm. Last, I'd say you should be a bit more critical towards yourself and a bit less critical towards your opponent or the overall game balance; for example, especially after failed cannon rush into failed DT-drop into the enemy outmacros you, a gg would be more appropriate than a balance whine, imho.  | ||
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Tao367
United Kingdom324 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 17 2012 20:33 Tao367 wrote: Yeah thanks guys. I was just raging after the game. Upon looking at it a gain I can spot the many mistakes I made, I shouldn't have BM'd. Just a quick follow up question - if you scout a build that looks like it could be stephano style roaches, what is the appropriate time to throw down a robo bay and start colossus production? After you hold off his timing with stalker/immortal, or when you see him teching into infestors. | ||
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ellsworth
United States30 Posts
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