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PvP, we both go 3-Stalker rush into 5 Stalkers into a fast expand. We're on equal footing, but he gets his second robo significantly faster than I do (as in, it's done and producing before I realize it's been started, so I'm about a Colossus behind even if I immediately drop my second Robo).
So the situation is both on two base, very close to equal worker count, I have slightly more GW units and he has about 2 more Colossi than I do. What is the correct play in this situation? My play was to posture aggressively with my GW units to make him feel nervous and maybe get him to slow down Colossus production, and to keep him from wanting to move out while I got my second Robo up and going. I went for a long game so that the initial Colossus advantage would balance out, but in the end he still just always had a couple more Colossi than me, and I could never get an advantageous engagement.
Thoughts?
(Edit to add: I've included no replay because this is a general situation that I find myself in a lot. PvP, both producing Colossi, my opponent has 1-2 Colossi more than me and I'm not sure how to respond to prevent that advantage from being converted into an easy win.)
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On July 13 2012 15:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
PvP, we both go 3-Stalker rush into 5 Stalkers into a fast expand. We're on equal footing, but he gets his second robo significantly faster than I do (as in, it's done and producing before I realize it's been started, so I'm about a Colossus behind even if I immediately drop my second Robo).
So the situation is both on two base, very close to equal worker count, I have slightly more GW units and he has about 2 more Colossi than I do. What is the correct play in this situation? My play was to posture aggressively with my GW units to make him feel nervous and maybe get him to slow down Colossus production, and to keep him from wanting to move out while I got my second Robo up and going. I went for a long game so that the initial Colossus advantage would balance out, but in the end he still just always had a couple more Colossi than me, and I could never get an advantageous engagement.
Thoughts?
(Edit to add: I've included no replay because this is a general situation that I find myself in a lot. PvP, both producing Colossi, my opponent has 1-2 Colossi more than me and I'm not sure how to respond to prevent that advantage from being converted into an easy win.)
It's a general situation to lose to a superior colossi count. It's not that general to lose to a fast second robo colossus timing on 2 base, which could have possibly been a reaction based on what an obs sees/the map. I think a replay would help in this specific game. Need to know what both of you seen, timing of the second robo, difference in timing of colossi production, timings of range (aren't colossi mirrors fun?) and the exact number of colossi produced when he pushed out.
If both of you were entirely blind then maybe theres a solution, but it's too difficult to discount decisions made in a specific game based on information seen. Fast second robo is fairly common in colossi mirrors where both opponents are aware the other is going colossus, though. Either way, I feel like your plan was flawed from the start if you were going to produce so much gateway units in a situation where you (seemingly?) knew you were fairly safe, with no intention to use them the very moment you had them before his colossi production trumped yours.
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On July 13 2012 14:44 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 14:01 Misuari wrote:
Hey guys , here's a question that im sure alot of low tier players have in their heads . Do we keep to 1 build for PvZ ,1 build for PvT and 1 build for PvP throughout bronze-gold etc . or do we learn new builds? for example , do we just have to perfect FFE for pvz and 1gate expand for pvt or we should learn different build?cause to me , being a low tier player , its hard memorising different timings etc for diff build for diff race That's exactly why you should learn just 1 build and stick to it. In low level leagues BO doesn't really matter so much. What is far more important is hitting all the benchmarks of the build and get a solid macro foundation. So when your mechanics and macro are good you can easily adapt to new builds.
Hahaha okay mate. thanks again ^^
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On July 13 2012 11:26 recklessfire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:55 NickolasSC wrote:
I can't win PvP i just hate it so much. Just seems like such a coin flip or if you both go robo who has more colossus. i'm diamond and have almost wanted to auto-gg out of every PvP I get. i do 3 stalker rush and then usually go robo. and if they take a fast expansion i two colossus with range all in. tips? i don't know what else to do, i'm not confident in twilight or stargate >< you gota play with the other techs, each tech route has its pros and cons. Robo play tends to be really passive, unless your doing some kind of all in, so when they get a fast expand, it can be difficult to do anything about it because it takes a lot of time for you to get the appropriate number of immortals/colossus to actually be able to attack. If they expand, depending on which tech path they chose, you shouldn't really two colossus with range all in. Range upgrade takes forever to finish anyway and if they went stargate, your going to straight up lose because of the phoenixes.
If Robo play is passive, it's because you're not using Warp Prisms. Warp Prism attacks are ridiculously hard to defend with a lot of expansion builds.
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Platinum Toss here. How do I spend my chrono effiently? Even in the mid-game where I have to chrono out plenty of upgrades I have way too much energy on my Nexii.
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On July 13 2012 19:56 Vonyx wrote:
Platinum Toss here. How do I spend my chrono effiently? Even in the mid-game where I have to chrono out plenty of upgrades I have way too much energy on my Nexii.
Crono is not very important aspect of the game later on. The important thing is that you spend your crono early on, on probes, upgrades and units. As a platinum i would not care about cronoboost in the lategame except for mabie hitting some on the forge(s). If you have 4 nexus full on crono you could just spend them on your gateways, but i would use my apm for different things such as adding more gates.
If you are unsure what to spend your crono on in early/mid just use it on the probes.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 13 2012 15:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
PvP, we both go 3-Stalker rush into 5 Stalkers into a fast expand. We're on equal footing, but he gets his second robo significantly faster than I do (as in, it's done and producing before I realize it's been started, so I'm about a Colossus behind even if I immediately drop my second Robo).
So the situation is both on two base, very close to equal worker count, I have slightly more GW units and he has about 2 more Colossi than I do. What is the correct play in this situation? My play was to posture aggressively with my GW units to make him feel nervous and maybe get him to slow down Colossus production, and to keep him from wanting to move out while I got my second Robo up and going. I went for a long game so that the initial Colossus advantage would balance out, but in the end he still just always had a couple more Colossi than me, and I could never get an advantageous engagement.
Thoughts?
(Edit to add: I've included no replay because this is a general situation that I find myself in a lot. PvP, both producing Colossi, my opponent has 1-2 Colossi more than me and I'm not sure how to respond to prevent that advantage from being converted into an easy win.)
I would question how he got into this position in the first place. Why was he able to make a 2nd robo faster and you weren't? Was he being unsafe or were you just being too cautious? Replay would really help here.
Also, a one colossi disadvantage doesn't really mean much on modern big maps, as there's really very little pushing potential. You can easily catch up later on, as something like 8 colossi isn't too different from 9 colossi, especially when concaves are involved. I also don't understand how your opponent went from a 1 colossi advantage to a "couple" colossi advantage.
Or you could just say fuck it, and go for the hidden double stargate phoenix followup.
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I think my question got missed ^^ I was just wondering why Korean toss's go forge first instead of nexus first PvZ even once they've scouted the second overlord?
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On July 13 2012 20:54 Abusion wrote:
I think my question got missed ^^ I was just wondering why Korean toss's go forge first instead of nexus first PvZ even once they've scouted the second overlord?
Depends on map, and both forge and nexus first has its benefits. Forge first allows you to cannon rush and safetly pylon block natural before nexus. On some maps its possible for lings to run in when u get nexus first for example antiga. Nexus first is the more economical option.
If you havent scouted the pool you cant be completely sure if its a 12/13 or 15 pool.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 20:03 Fus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 19:56 Vonyx wrote:
Platinum Toss here. How do I spend my chrono effiently? Even in the mid-game where I have to chrono out plenty of upgrades I have way too much energy on my Nexii. Crono is not very important aspect of the game later on. The important thing is that you spend your crono early on, on probes, upgrades and units. As a platinum i would not care about cronoboost in the lategame except for mabie hitting some on the forge(s). If you have 4 nexus full on crono you could just spend them on your gateways, but i would use my apm for different things such as adding more gates. If you are unsure what to spend your crono on in early/mid just use it on the probes.
Alrighty! Thanks 
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On July 13 2012 20:07 NrGmonk wrote:
I would question how he got into this position in the first place. Why was he able to make a 2nd robo faster and you weren't? Was he being unsafe or were you just being too cautious? Replay would really help here.
Also, a one colossi disadvantage doesn't really mean much on modern big maps, as there's really very little pushing potential. You can easily catch up later on, as something like 8 colossi isn't too different from 9 colossi, especially when concaves are involved. I also don't understand how your opponent went from a 1 colossi advantage to a "couple" colossi advantage.
Or you could just say fuck it, and go for the hidden double stargate phoenix followup.
Just curious, you'd go for phoenix against colossus instead of void rays? I don't remember any pro games where a responsive double stargate happened but I just always assumed void rays were better because colossus are massive and armored. Is it the faster build time that makes phoenix preferable?
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On July 14 2012 00:44 whistle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 20:07 NrGmonk wrote:
I would question how he got into this position in the first place. Why was he able to make a 2nd robo faster and you weren't? Was he being unsafe or were you just being too cautious? Replay would really help here.
Also, a one colossi disadvantage doesn't really mean much on modern big maps, as there's really very little pushing potential. You can easily catch up later on, as something like 8 colossi isn't too different from 9 colossi, especially when concaves are involved. I also don't understand how your opponent went from a 1 colossi advantage to a "couple" colossi advantage.
Or you could just say fuck it, and go for the hidden double stargate phoenix followup. Just curious, you'd go for phoenix against colossus instead of void rays? I don't remember any pro games where a responsive double stargate happened but I just always assumed void rays were better because colossus are massive and armored. Is it the faster build time that makes phoenix preferable?
if the guy goes double robo that fast and he doesnt scout your double stargate, your like 90% chance going to win with a timing with phoenixes, his gas is going to be all tied up into colossus tech so minimal stalkers. Phoenixes own the colossus and assist in killing all the gateway units. voidrays arent preferable for a timing because they arent so good vs gateway and much more difficult to afford and mass up. I think it takes one full chrono to get out a phoenix while you need two full chronos for a void ray.
edit: dont get me wrong though. I think voidrays are amazing when there is a ton of them and the opponent has a ton of colossus, but they are used more in the lategame rather than some kind of mid game timing.
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On July 13 2012 15:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
PvP, we both go 3-Stalker rush into 5 Stalkers into a fast expand. We're on equal footing, but he gets his second robo significantly faster than I do (as in, it's done and producing before I realize it's been started, so I'm about a Colossus behind even if I immediately drop my second Robo).
So the situation is both on two base, very close to equal worker count, I have slightly more GW units and he has about 2 more Colossi than I do. What is the correct play in this situation? My play was to posture aggressively with my GW units to make him feel nervous and maybe get him to slow down Colossus production, and to keep him from wanting to move out while I got my second Robo up and going. I went for a long game so that the initial Colossus advantage would balance out, but in the end he still just always had a couple more Colossi than me, and I could never get an advantageous engagement.
Thoughts?
(Edit to add: I've included no replay because this is a general situation that I find myself in a lot. PvP, both producing Colossi, my opponent has 1-2 Colossi more than me and I'm not sure how to respond to prevent that advantage from being converted into an easy win.)
Warp prism into another Robo is the first thing I thought of. If you both have 4 vespene, you should be able to easily stockpile some Vespene while making a Warp Prism. Use this slight stockpile by placing a second Robo, once the Prism finishes warp in/load up 4 zealots and go to the other dudes base. The moment he moves out warp in 4 zealots and drop 4 zealots -- in the meantime start up double Colo production.
The reason this makes sense is because it allocates your resources in an efficient manner and purchases a great amount of time to get your double Robo up. If he barrels across the map anyways, you'll have a significant supply and income lead, so just wittle his army down until it becomes small enough to overwhelm.
If he never moves out I'd just go with dropping his main while taking a third, don't forget the second robo though.
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1) Im having a lot of trouble sim citing in entombed valley. How do you do it properly ? A picture would help a lot.
2) Once I saw a threat about PvZ 2 bases all ins against 3 fast hatch style but I haven't been able to find it again.
thx
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PvT: How do you recognize if terran is going for an 1 base all-in or expo if he is building the expo INSIDE his base? If fast expo gets thrown down in his natural thats no problem coz i can ofc easily scout it with my stalker.
PvP:
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On July 14 2012 08:55 imagran wrote:
PvT: How do you recognize if terran is going for an 1 base all-in or expo if he is building the expo INSIDE his base? If fast expo gets thrown down in his natural thats no problem coz i can ofc easily scout it with my stalker.
This is a thing I do personally; since bio armies have more problems with zealots than stalkers, I tend to sacrifice the gas from 2 stalkers in order to research hallucination right after warp gate research. 4 chronos on warp gates causes the research to finish just after 5:30, and hallucination has a 100 second research time. 2 chronos on halluc and you have a free 7 minute phoenix scout from a sentry.
If it's earlier than that, gas scouting is a great way to scout for it. double gas automatically tells you that it's not an early expo (usually means banshee harass or 1-1-1).
If single gas, check how long it has been up by checking how much gas is missing from it. Earlier expo's tend to take later gas, so if it is close to full or still being built, there's a good chance they will be fast expoing. If there's a good amount missing (equivalent to what you have, since nearly all toss builds have a 13 or 14 assimilator in it), it's likely a stim push, or shell push on marauder.
The single gas check also applies to probe scouting if you can get into the base earlier. In addition, you can build an early robo and chrono an observer if you are that concerned.
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On July 14 2012 08:55 imagran wrote:
PvT: How do you recognize if terran is going for an 1 base all-in or expo if he is building the expo INSIDE his base? If fast expo gets thrown down in his natural thats no problem coz i can ofc easily scout it with my stalker.
PvP:
Some all-ins, especially gasless (2 rax etc.) cant really be distinguished from a one rax fe until you see it move out. In these cases holding towers and keeping stalkers planted at his natural to slow him down is key. You COULD robo/halluc but it's just added disadvantages vs a 1 rax fe. These all-ins can be held without perfect information.
Any other non-gasless all-in merely relies on you scouting the gas and keeping a count of his marines (and marauders, if any). If you scout a gas, then go back and see no techlab/multiple marines it's fairly indicative of a factory. If you lose a lot to all-ins, consider 9 scouting -- even on two player maps as seeing a gas is very important. If he does go gas and walls off your probe, then he could just as easily drop a bunker at his natural and deny vision of the expansion as well -- then three minutes later a marine/tank/banshee all-in rolls your way. At that point scouting it is up to how fast you prefer to get your robo after expanding, and it can be held in this case without perfect information as well.
tl;dr there is no way without accounting for other scouting information.
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How do you deal with the TSLRevival response to a 10:30 immortal or blink stalker attack? Basically what he does is abandon his third, box his units, and send them straight to your natural, and they get there right before your units are attacking his third hatch. I'm brainstorming and I just don't see a way to deal with this effectively.
For the sake of argument, let's say the map is daybreak and we have a warp prism available.
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EPT
