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On July 01 2012 15:03 jcvf wrote:Hi guys. Im just wondering, in PvT, is it possible to do any sort of FE as toss while holding a 5 rax early agression? Or should toss mandatorily sac the nexus when he sees the early 5 rax push coming? In maps with huge ramps leading to the natural (e.g. entombed), it seems that sentries could not cast ffs long enough to delay the push. Also, kiting with 2-3 stalkers (considering the early time that the aggression hits) seems to be a bit ineffective since the marine count is just sort of overwhelming. For those who are positive that toss FE can hold, what type of toss FE can hold it better? (Parting? Mc's? the early 2 gas?) I honestly havent seen a game where the toss is able to hold a 5 rax agression while going FE and not cancelling the nexus. If anyone can give a link, it will be much appreciated. 
Yes it's definitely possible. All the Toss player has to do is have a proper warpgate timing, and time their gateways to finish on-time. Warp in some sentries and after that some Stalker/Zealot. You should be absolutely fine holding off the marines.
If things do get out of hand due to a greedy build or poor execution, it's best to pull your probes off of mining and prevent any from dieing if possible. Warp in some units from your Gates, and once the marines are pressed away you can resume mining at your Natural. If you lose your nexus to a 1 Rax FE -> 5 Rax you'll definitely be madly behind.
Edit: If you meant just a straight up 5 Rax with no CC, just hide up your ramp, pull all your probes, and retake your Natural later. Your opponent will have no tech from 5 early rax. If the Nexus hasn't finished yet, then retreat up the ramp and cancel it at the last moment.
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High diamond protoss looking for some discussion against late game PvZ.
How do you guys deal with a spread out army? I'm with the understanding that you want HT, archon + carriers with mothership late game - which means I will need to start air upgrades as well. Once I've started my fourth base, should i halt army production and tech WHILE using speed prism play - essentially as a mineral dump?
But if they spread out their army, it reduces the value of the vortex significantly. And as a late game composition of protoss in today's PvZ, how many of each unit should I really be looking at? I mean is it better to have more archons than stalkers? Carriers? Am I looking at only 2 carriers max? Thanks!
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On July 01 2012 19:36 etherealfall wrote:
High diamond protoss looking for some discussion against late game PvZ.
How do you guys deal with a spread out army? I'm with the understanding that you want HT, archon + carriers with mothership late game - which means I will need to start air upgrades as well. Once I've started my fourth base, should i halt army production and tech WHILE using speed prism play - essentially as a mineral dump?
But if they spread out their army, it reduces the value of the vortex significantly. And as a late game composition of protoss in today's PvZ, how many of each unit should I really be looking at? I mean is it better to have more archons than stalkers? Carriers? Am I looking at only 2 carriers max? Thanks!
If a zerg properly spreads out his broods, corrupters and infestors there is a significantly less chance you will win. However, using harassment like warp prism will tax his APM and make him make mistakes that you can use to grab a clutch vortex. Against that kind of army composition I think you really need a few collosus in there as well. If he overextends with his infestors you can snipe a few of them and also they stop a spine crawler push to back up there army but mainly the second point :D.
If you are not nearly maxed while taking a 4th I think you might be doing something a bit wrong. While taking your 4th there should be no need to halt production. Off of 3 bases you can go down 2 tech paths simultaneously so be it collosus and HT. I really don't advise getting Carriers off of 4 base either. I think it is more of a tech switch thing late late game. where you surprise him with 6 3-3-3 carriers that melt his army. Late game composition in my army I go mass stalker, 5 or 6 archons mothership with 2 or so collosus, then while taking my 5th ( on maps that I am able to split map like Shakuras) I go up to 4 starports. You really need stalkers against Broods to be able to blink under the broods once the ground army has gone or if he over-extends.
TL;DR: should be nearly maxed while taking 4th, you need a lot of stalkers 6 archons, tech switch to carriers on certain maps off of 5 base.
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Hey guys thanks in advance for the help. I'm currently about 600 points plat player and I'm right on the verge of being promoted to diamond league. That being said I seem to have hit a wall against the diamond level zergs I've been playing. It seems like weather I 2 base all in with an immortal/sentry push or try to go for the macro game I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle to win every game. I'm really not sure whats going on. My guess is I'm not used to the level of zerg player's production that actually keeps up on larva injects and proper macro and I'm really struggling to take a lead. I know it's a vague question but is there anything I can do throught the game to even things out a bit so I have a fighting chance. Or just any tips/tricks you guys can give me. Thank you again.
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Italy12246 Posts
That sounds extremely generic, please post replays. There really aren't magic tricks, it just sounds like your builds/execution/macro/whatever else is worse than your opponent's.
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I have advice. Macro better, micro better.
But really, you need some replays lol.
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Can you tell me the three gate expand build or another solid one
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On July 02 2012 03:15 Requiem- wrote:
Can you tell me the three gate expand build or another solid one
liquipedia should have that covered pretty well, just don´t blindly use the same bo vs every race, 3 gate expo in pvt is much more pressure dependent than 3 gate sentrie expo in pvz for example.
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On July 02 2012 01:23 Scilencer wrote:
Hey guys thanks in advance for the help. I'm currently about 600 points plat player and I'm right on the verge of being promoted to diamond league. That being said I seem to have hit a wall against the diamond level zergs I've been playing. It seems like weather I 2 base all in with an immortal/sentry push or try to go for the macro game I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle to win every game. I'm really not sure whats going on. My guess is I'm not used to the level of zerg player's production that actually keeps up on larva injects and proper macro and I'm really struggling to take a lead. I know it's a vague question but is there anything I can do throught the game to even things out a bit so I have a fighting chance. Or just any tips/tricks you guys can give me. Thank you again.
Heroic FFE with fast 4g +1 8min zealot warp in still works, or at least at my level (upper diamond), macro becomes all important against zerg, miss one warp in or forget an immortal production and you could have roaches up yer ass for the rest of the game.
I have another PvT question, I use the partinG 1 gate FE, (13gate, 17gas, 17 nexus), my question is are you able to hold a 2 rax with this build and if so how do you do it? I have never been able to hold my expo against a 2 rax and usually have to cancel or god forbid sac it. Even if I do cancel it I don't know what a proper response against a 2 rax. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Can anyone point me to a good PvT phoenix opener? I love opening 1base phoenix to harass but I can't quite transition out of it well enough. I tried transitioning into chargelot/archon to counter the mass marines but it kind of leaves me open to a big timing attack honestly
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On July 02 2012 07:19 hooahah wrote:
Can anyone point me to a good PvT phoenix opener? I love opening 1base phoenix to harass but I can't quite transition out of it well enough. I tried transitioning into chargelot/archon to counter the mass marines but it kind of leaves me open to a big timing attack honestly
People typically don't Phoenix vs Terran in the early stages of the game because Phoenixes are not very good against marines, and they don't do enough dps when they pick up marauders. If you're stargating off one base, it's usually to do some kind of void ray attack.
Phoenixes are generally better alongside colossus tech than HT/Archon tech in the midgame because they help fight against Vikings. If your 2-3 base AoE choice is High Templar, Phoenixes don't really do much with that army composition aside from picking up stragglers--but that's what blink is for.
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Someone on the thread suggested that I focus on 2-base all ins against Zerg opponents, so I've been practicing the 2 Gas +1 Zealot/Stalker 7 Gate. I usually get the timings right and stuff, but I don't know what should I warp in more of. Should I warp more zealots over stalkers, or vice versa?
If I am 1-Gate expanding and my opponent moves out with marines and marauders, what should I do? Should I have scouted his push beforehand and put down cannons beforehand, or respond with gates of my own?
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On July 02 2012 10:48 vizi wrote:
Someone on the thread suggested that I focus on 2-base all ins against Zerg opponents, so I've been practicing the 2 Gas +1 Zealot/Stalker 7 Gate. I usually get the timings right and stuff, but I don't know what should I warp in more of. Should I warp more zealots over stalkers, or vice versa?
If I am 1-Gate expanding and my opponent moves out with marines and marauders, what should I do? Should I have scouted his push beforehand and put down cannons beforehand, or respond with gates of my own?
Whether to warp in zealots or stalkers depends on their composition. if they are very ling heavy, then zealot warp ins are really strong. If they are roach heavy, u want more stalkers, with enough zealots so they can't surround you with lings and you can kite the roaches.
Any safe 1 gate expand should be able to respond to any non proxy marine marauder pressure just fine, especially if they don't pull scvs. If u scout a 2rax, it's safer to get up to 3 gates before teching after ur FE, however you can hold a 2rax with 2gates if they aren't committing a lot of scvs to it.
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On July 02 2012 10:48 vizi wrote:
If I am 1-Gate expanding and my opponent moves out with marines and marauders, what should I do? Should I have scouted his push beforehand and put down cannons beforehand, or respond with gates of my own?
You can usually see this coming if there is 2rax early with a probe, i usually get gateways down asap so they finish same time as warpgate sometimes add 3 and delay robo slighly, 2 would be fine also I would guess
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Platinum/Diamond level Protoss looking for a standard build order against Terran. I'm still in that stage where I just want to practice one build per matchup and I don't know what the best (or safest) build order against Terran is. I don't need the breakdown timings and what not, because I can look that up. Right now I'm lost in PvT. =/ I checked out Liquipedia, but the builds I was looking at seemed outdated?
TL;DR What is a standard opening for PvT ?
Thank you very much! <3
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On July 02 2012 13:36 n0ah wrote:
Platinum/Diamond level Protoss looking for a standard build order against Terran. I'm still in that stage where I just want to practice one build per matchup and I don't know what the best (or safest) build order against Terran is. I don't need the breakdown timings and what not, because I can look that up. Right now I'm lost in PvT. =/ I checked out Liquipedia, but the builds I was looking at seemed outdated?
TL;DR What is a standard opening for PvT ?
Thank you very much! <3
I say MC 1 gate FE - it is very safe as long as you scout adamantly. Obviously to defend cheese you have to scout aggressively prior to even the cyber core being landed.
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Gold/Platinum level protoss here, looking for advices on early PvP aggression. I've been playing some matches with a P friend of mine, who seems to open up pretty much every game with some kind of 2gate-robo variation, and starts poking me around 8-min mark. My openings are usually quite standard, in most cases they are similar to his. The issue here is that the aggression is not supposed to break through at any part, but its merely meant for me to freak out and mass gate units fast, possibly chronoing production. Meanwhile he either takes a 3rd or techs up to double-robo, and easily gets ahead of me macro/tech wise. I know this is just a standard play, but i find it hard to react into this. Should i just play cool and stack sentries that can keep the ramps clean? This kind of play is hardest for me on maps with wide / several ramps, such as Cloud Kingdom.
Should I be the more aggressive player here, and possibly poke him before, with 3-4 stalkers, or perhaps do some harrasment with warp prisms? The issue for me is that while the opening is somewhat standard, i need to be prepared for it, without knowing if its coming or not. No replays here since im at work currently, and this is an issue that i've had to deal with numerous times. Will post them later if needed.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah post a replay, neither blind immortal pushes (especially in robo mirrors wtf) or 8 minute third bases are standard at all in pvp. Generally, don't freak out, your robo units will get rallied to the fight faster than his so just keep cool and engage when you have the immortal advantage assuming you both did some kind of immortal expand. Alternatively you can blind counter the hell out of him and go for, say, a phoenix opening, or even a blink allin hoping to catch him in the middle of the map.
Also, do NOT stack sentries. Anything above i'd say 4 (and even that is high) is waaaay overkill, because making sentries delays your tech a TON and will eventually mean your end up with a lower colossus count/slower upgrades than him.
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On July 02 2012 19:43 Teoita wrote:
Yeah post a replay, neither blind immortal pushes (especially in robo mirrors wtf) or 8 minute third bases are standard at all in pvp. Generally, don't freak out, your robo units will get rallied to the fight faster than his so just keep cool and engage when you have the immortal advantage assuming you both did some kind of immortal expand. Alternatively you can blind counter the hell out of him and go for, say, a phoenix opening, or even a blink allin hoping to catch him in the middle of the map.
Also, do NOT stack sentries. Anything above i'd say 4 (and even that is high) is waaaay overkill, because making sentries delays your tech a TON and will eventually mean your end up with a lower colossus count/slower upgrades than him.
Thanks! Will post a replay or two when i get home. I gotta rephrase my first post a bit; yeah i didnt mean that 2gate-robo push would be kind of like textbook-standard, but more like a relatively safe opener that you see quite some at the gold/platinum levels. Enables you to scout and fend off some random blind pushes, while being more safe for expanding than just standard gate units. For example blink is really a good solution to fend this off and to harass in general, it's just my own personal skill that usually turns the blink-pushes in to an all ins, which makes it quite a coinflip for me.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah that didn't come out right. What i meant is:
Pushing out with immortals+gateway units is doable, but only in specific scenarios:
1) Your opponent went for some kind of early game warpgate aggression, screwed up and is now behind. Push out to scare him, force sentries, further delay his tech and expansion.
2) Your opponent fast expanded. You want to push out while securing your nexus to force him to cut probes.
If you have the same tech tree as your opponent, in particular if you both go robo, if your tech timing was similar there's no point in trying to be aggressive because as i said his immortals will reinforce slower than yours, and at that stage of the games immortals are really really good.
Also yeah immortal expand is pretty solid overall, it works at all levels and it's a good go-to macro pvp opening.
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