EPTI lose every time. Why? Because they've practiced and practiced zealot vs zealot micro, every time they kill all 3 of my zealots and keep 2 red life zealots. Now my economic advantage means jack shit and I'm dead, no way to recover. He'll have 4 zealots against my next 2 and it just snowballs from there.
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 275
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
I lose every time. Why? Because they've practiced and practiced zealot vs zealot micro, every time they kill all 3 of my zealots and keep 2 red life zealots. Now my economic advantage means jack shit and I'm dead, no way to recover. He'll have 4 zealots against my next 2 and it just snowballs from there. | ||
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ZeratuLsc2
Canada426 Posts
On June 29 2012 11:36 Xequecal wrote: Is there any generic counter for scouted proxy gates in PvP other than "practice zealot vs. zealot micro for 500 games?" It is ungodly frustrating. I scout the proxy gates. I put up two gates of my own. When he comes into my base with 3 zealots, I have 3 zealots. Our armies are the same size, I'm 4-6 probes ahead, and he has the proxy disadvantage. I lose every time. Why? Because they've practiced and practiced zealot vs zealot micro, every time they kill all 3 of my zealots and keep 2 red life zealots. Now my economic advantage means jack shit and I'm dead, no way to recover. He'll have 4 zealots against my next 2 and it just snowballs from there. You have a probe advantage and home field advantage. Given an equal amount of zealots, pull 3-4 probes to defend. Instead of being 3 zealots vs 3 zealots, it'll be 3 zealots vs 3 zealots and 4 probes. From there it's just a bit of micro. Once you have the zealot advantage, send your probes back to mining. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 29 2012 02:53 Hellfury wrote: How do I scout in PvZ before getting hallucination. I obviously need to chrono Immortals out of my robo just to stay alive, and you can't really get hallucination until like the 9-10 minute mark (not sure on the exact timing). It's impossible to get a probe anywhere even remotely close to the zerg main now with the new queens, so I often find myself playing a 'lets just assume he's going roaches' strat, and get completely roflstomped when 12 mutas swoop into my base. Assuming you're going fast robo, what's the issue with getting an observer? It'll come out before hallucination. On June 29 2012 11:36 Xequecal wrote: Is there any generic counter for scouted proxy gates in PvP other than "practice zealot vs. zealot micro for 500 games?" It is ungodly frustrating. I scout the proxy gates. I put up two gates of my own. When he comes into my base with 3 zealots, I have 3 zealots. Our armies are the same size, I'm 4-6 probes ahead, and he has the proxy disadvantage. I lose every time. Why? Because they've practiced and practiced zealot vs zealot micro, every time they kill all 3 of my zealots and keep 2 red life zealots. Now my economic advantage means jack shit and I'm dead, no way to recover. He'll have 4 zealots against my next 2 and it just snowballs from there. Reactionary forge+cannon in mineral line. Relies on you scouting the gates quickly enough. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:24 Tyrant0 wrote: Assuming you're going fast robo, what's the issue with getting an observer? It'll come out before hallucination. Reactionary forge+cannon in mineral line. Relies on you scouting the gates quickly enough. Idk. The forge response is very iffy to me, I'd like to see what other people do as their response. From my experience, u only want to do the forge response if u scout it really late and there's no way you are going to have enough zealots out to hold. And to the guy who asked the question, if they out-micro you then they deserve to win. It doesn't take 500 games to have good zealot micro, u just need to patient and never hesitate to use probes. You will have an huge advantage if u hold it off, even if u lose a ton of probes (unless u lose almost all of them of course). | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:41 blooblooblahblah wrote: Idk. The forge response is very iffy to me, I'd like to see what other people do as their response. From my experience, u only want to do the forge response if u scout it really late and there's no way you are going to have enough zealots out to hold. And to the guy who asked the question, if they out-micro you then they deserve to win. It doesn't take 500 games to have good zealot micro, u just need to patient and never hesitate to use probes. You will have an huge advantage if u hold it off, even if u lose a ton of probes (unless u lose almost all of them of course). The responses you can make are very limited, it's a narrow window. Either way, the OP asked for a generic counter, and a forge will stop a 2 gate. edit: and some maps are pretty easy to cannon rush You invest 300 minerals into a forge/cannon, they invested 400 minerals into a pylon/two gateways that cannot be defended without a four gate -- ontop of sacrificing probes to make them. Nothing stops you from checking for a cyber core in their main if they try to transition. As long as they don't beat you to a four gate you're ahead. The only other response I could think of that might work would be to have started a choke at your ramp from the start, cboosting zealot before core, core, 2nd zealot, then stalker as core finishes with a probe to drop a pylon/gateway to complete the wall-in. But then you're just basically hoping he 2 gates you and doesn't play a normal game and kill your core from the low ground for an auto-win with blink stalkers. I consider the former two responses; reactionary second gateway/forge to be superior. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 28 2012 05:10 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote: How do you hold a 1 base marauder hellion all-in? Assuming you 1 gate FE Example video + Show Spoiler [NASL spoiler] + By cancelling the expansion as soon as you scout no CC and instead going 3-gate+robo. You don't FE against 1-base plays. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On June 29 2012 23:03 TheExodus wrote: By cancelling the expansion as soon as you scout no CC and instead going 3-gate+robo. You don't FE against 1-base plays. Not at all. That's an ok response against marauder/hellion, but against any 111 allin you MUST 1gate expand. | ||
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TheExodus
293 Posts
On June 29 2012 23:06 Teoita wrote: Not at all. That's an ok response against marauder/hellion, but against any 111 allin you MUST 1gate expand. True, I didn't consider 111. So let me rephrase it to "The only 1-base allin you FE against is the 111"  | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On June 30 2012 00:08 TheExodus wrote: True, I didn't consider 111. So let me rephrase it to "The only 1-base allin you FE against is the 111" yeah and you have absolutely 0 scouting information at the time.. What you want is more Immortals, you should get your Robo pretty early after the Nexus, Nony's first Immortal was done at like 9:40 that is simply to late.. Sacrifice a Zealot to see if there is a command center and if not, establish map vision via Xel Naga towers and Stalkers/Probes, get a fast Robo, get a your second and htird gateway for a few sentrys/zealots and chrono 1 observer then chrono the next 2 Immortals. Do not focus too heavy on gateway units early on, more gateways are a better choice because you will have the money due to your expansion. From there it should be pretty ez, which is why we rarely ever see this build. | ||
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itsNifty
Netherlands29 Posts
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DrunkenHomer
66 Posts
Can anyone tell me some players for each matchup, which have a solid playstyle ? | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On June 30 2012 00:25 rEalGuapo wrote: yeah and you have absolutely 0 scouting information at the time.. What you want is more Immortals, you should get your Robo pretty early after the Nexus, Nony's first Immortal was done at like 9:40 that is simply to late.. Sacrifice a Zealot to see if there is a command center and if not, establish map vision via Xel Naga towers and Stalkers/Probes, get a fast Robo, get a your second and htird gateway for a few sentrys/zealots and chrono 1 observer then chrono the next 2 Immortals. Do not focus too heavy on gateway units early on, more gateways are a better choice because you will have the money due to your expansion. From there it should be pretty ez, which is why we rarely ever see this build. I see the marauder hellion thing sometimes when I open templar. If you have storm out for the 10 minute mark you can make some archons and with some storm archons and chargelots and a good forcefield if you can catch a lot of the hellions and kill them quickly or not allow them to kite you can win the fight pretty easily. It really just comes down to whether you let the hellions kite your zealots till they die, or you can trap the hellions and kill them then its an easy game. Alternatively, collossus destroy the all in if it comes at a later timing. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On June 30 2012 01:14 itsNifty wrote: How do you fend off medivac marine drops with nexus first or forge nexus first ....? Couple zealots and a stalker, active patrolling obs, sometimes cannon(s). This question is much too vague to give an indepth answer. A replay to see the drop and subsequent timing you refer to would help. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:41 blooblooblahblah wrote: Idk. The forge response is very iffy to me, I'd like to see what other people do as their response. From my experience, u only want to do the forge response if u scout it really late and there's no way you are going to have enough zealots out to hold. And to the guy who asked the question, if they out-micro you then they deserve to win. It doesn't take 500 games to have good zealot micro, u just need to patient and never hesitate to use probes. You will have an huge advantage if u hold it off, even if u lose a ton of probes (unless u lose almost all of them of course). The thing is that zealot vs. zealot micro is only relevant against proxy gate play. In normal games it's almost totally irrelevant, it never comes up. You're always going to have worse zealot micro against a player that does proxy gate cheese every single game. Forge response does not work at all. Their probe can see the forge, so they can then just not make zealots, put down gas + cycore, and have stalkers way before you do, which will just kill you. | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On June 29 2012 15:24 Tyrant0 wrote: Assuming you're going fast robo, what's the issue with getting an observer? It'll come out before hallucination. 1. You don't have 30 seconds of robo production time to spare against roach/ling spam builds. If you're not chronoing straight immortals, you'll die. 2. Observers are slow. They have three bases. The fast hallucinated phoenix on average will scout a potential spire or infestation pit much faster than your observer will. The obs builds faster, but it has to cross the map and then it has to move from base to base. Also you have to babysit it and make sure it doesn't run into random spore colonies or overseers. The hallucinated phoenix you can just make two and rally spam on the minimap to scout everything. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:04 Xequecal wrote: The thing is that zealot vs. zealot micro is only relevant against proxy gate play. In normal games it's almost totally irrelevant, it never comes up. You're always going to have worse zealot micro against a player that does proxy gate cheese every single game. People with a Warcraft 3 background have even better micro than 2gate cheesers. You could go play that game for about a week and learn all you need to know through grunt/footman/ghoul/militia/bear micro. Or you could play micro wars customs and learn Zealot mirror wars that way, too. One way or another, there's no excuse for saying "they're always going to have better micro than me." It's not a matter of high APM; it's a matter of technique and critical thinking with those units. It's a teachable skill, not an innate one. On June 30 2012 08:13 Xequecal wrote: 1. You don't have 30 seconds of robo production time to spare against roach/ling spam builds. If you're not chronoing straight immortals, you'll die. 2. Observers are slow. They have three bases. The fast hallucinated phoenix on average will scout a potential spire or infestation pit much faster than your observer will. The obs builds faster, but it has to cross the map and then it has to move from base to base. Also you have to babysit it and make sure it doesn't run into random spore colonies or overseers. The hallucinated phoenix you can just make two and rally spam on the minimap to scout everything. Observers take 20 seconds to build with chronoboost and you don't need constant immortals unless you're trying to take a third fairly quickly. I agree that observers are lackluster scouts against zerg because they are so slow, but some of your logic just wasn't accurate. | ||
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Czarkasm
United States22 Posts
If not where is a good place to start in terms of builds vs. each race? All the guides ive seen seem a bit outdated atm. | ||
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ZeratuLsc2
Canada426 Posts
On June 30 2012 09:38 Czarkasm wrote: Is there a build that works safely against all 3 races? Just looking for a build that I can start off learning and practicing against each race. I have looked around the site and have come to the conclusion that the 3 gate Robo may be what i'm looking for but im not too sure. If not where is a good place to start in terms of builds vs. each race? All the guides ive seen seem a bit outdated atm. 3-gate robo is viable against all 3 races and is generally very safe. | ||
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Czarkasm
United States22 Posts
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ellsworth
United States30 Posts
The pvp metagame has completely switched up on me. People are expanding super early (as in 2 game robo expand type shit) and prettyy much mirroring me in tech and having 2x the amount of probe as me and it still comes down to a micro battle. I am pretty good at playing down a base, in fact I am more than 60% against ppl who take greedy bases PvP I feel. Thing is, I can tell this is different and these people are putting down super safe expos. I need to know when to expand...Can i open 1 gate robo and get a quick obs to solve this until I am good enough to punish them with all in or should I plan to macro like them or what? HELP Also I am not getting my probe scout denied or something, I am just not really used to having to scout it. Is there a time to scout with a zealot so that I can expand after them and just chrono probes to catch up? Should I try to get better at 4 gate mirco and early warp ins to better my skillz? | ||
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