EPTThe Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 278
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. | ||
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 02 2012 23:53 howLiN wrote: I'm finding a really hard time playing against that 3-base mass roach style... I can see it coming, I just don't know how to beat it. What do you guys do when you play against that? Robo Sentry Stalker Zealot works nicely off of a FFE. There's a lot of resources around on TL, use the search function to find some. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
Does anyone have some tips or perhaps replays of a good protoss doing this build so I could get a reference frame? http://drop.sc/212774 Die to pressure before 8 min mark. http://drop.sc/212775 Die to counterattack after my push. http://drop.sc/212776 Die to counterattack after my push. http://drop.sc/212777 Macro game where I somehow piss away my advantage (since my PvT lategame is awful, please point out things wrong or what to improve with the lategame too <3) Thanks, love you all. | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8307 Posts
Tips? I'll try checking out this thread now in the meantime: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240236 | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
By the way, what is this 3 Immortal push you speak of? Is it a variation of the Immortal/Stalker/Sentry +1/+1 push (before ~11 min) but with a 3rd Immortal? | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On July 03 2012 02:06 Daimai wrote: I have been trying the 3 nexus 8gate parting style lately but it's just going shit for me. I have 4 replays here with typical situations that happen to me every PvT. Does anyone have some tips or perhaps replays of a good protoss doing this build so I could get a reference frame? http://drop.sc/212774 Die to pressure before 8 min mark. http://drop.sc/212775 Die to counterattack after my push. http://drop.sc/212776 Die to counterattack after my push. http://drop.sc/212777 Macro game where I somehow piss away my advantage (since my PvT lategame is awful, please point out things wrong or what to improve with the lategame too <3) Thanks, love you all. So, i watched all the games and im going to ignore the lategame on daybreak because all the games you tried to do the same thing basically, which was a 8 gate timing after getting a greedy 3rd. So biggest problem that I see is your investing too much time and resources into the actual attack. If you didnt significantly decrease his army size or bust down his wall with the first wave of the attack, your arent gona do good damage with the attack. If you really wanted to kill this guy, you would have just done an 8 gate off of two bases. After he deflects your first few waves, you keep warping in units and trying to bust him again, when you should realize you need to back off. You have an eco and army advantage in exchange for slowing down your tech/upgrades significantly. Yeah, we've all seen Parting use this build and just trash on terrans with this 8 gate, but his forcefields determine those fights and he will usually fight the army in parts rather than the whole thing. Its pretty difficult to seperate the armies when their defending the ramp in their natural. You need to realize your fighting a terran who is starting to get his medivacs out, so like I said if you dont do significant damage with the initial attack, he will get more medivacs and more time for his units to heal. And because your tech is so behind, you cant just think you can attack anywhere on the map with your army. Unless you have a ton of forcefields on you, your army is at a disadvantage because your in the stage of the game where you need aoe. There's nothing wrong with the actual attack, you just need to play more defensively when the attack isn't going to work, and catch back up in your tech. edit: i want to add that your opening build needs to be more consistent and solid. I think a few games you just did a 1 gate and went straight for your third, which pretty much would be an auto win if the terran randomly attacked. So maybe go up to 3 gates then expand into your third? and you need to try to deny as much scouting around the map as you can, you definitely do not want to terran to scout the third until its at least its nearly complete and by then he really wont be able to react and do a powerful timing upon scouting it. Also, you need to take into consideration the possibility for a cloak banshee expand, so you need to be scouting his front and checking for marauders and if you dont see marauders by at least 8:00(assuming he gasless expanded), then there is something really wrong. edit 2: You're probably aware, but be really careful in how many probes you build while getting that fast third up. If you build too many you can just outright die to one simple attack, so dont skip warp in rounds in favor of getting more probes if he hasnt gotten a quick third like yourself. When your executing the actual 8 gate, you should probably build a tech building/forges while the attack is executed, you cant expect the attack to always work since its not an all in. | ||
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On July 03 2012 06:04 TheDougler wrote: Hey guys, top 8 gold player here, just recently switched to protoss from zerg not too long ago. I'm having fantastic success in PvZ (3 immortal push SOOOO GOOD) and usually win PvT... but my PvP is AWEFUL. proabbly about 20% win rate now. Where can I go for a a consistent PvP opener. I've tried 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stalker rush. Have been having practically no success. 3 gate robo pressure has been okay... And my stalker micro isn't bad. My zealot micro could use some improvement tho. Tips? I'll try checking out this thread now in the meantime: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240236 mmmm, theres a bunch of pvp openings that are safe against standard 4 gates, so i really recommend you just choose one and then play around with each tech tree and see which one you like best. The 3 gate stalker, you need to use the stalkers to gain map control and search for proxy pylons/hidden probes. (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=305331) There is a one gate tech opening that allows you get go up allowyou to deny 4 gates (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewme ssage.php?topic_id=302117 <--- these work best with maps with a ramp at the natural, i.e antiga shipyard and definitely not cloud kingdom) Remember, for each of these openings they have different reactions to whether or not you suspect a 4 gate is coming. The 3 stalker rush, if you suspect the 4 gate and he has somehow pushed back your stalkers, you need to get two zealots and chrono out sentries in response. However, if he is spending all his chronos on his probes and gets a 2nd gas, he probably wont be 4 gating and then instead of making those extra zealots/sentries, you can get a faster 2nd gas and faster tech. Each tech path is a bit like rock paper scissor but there are ways to cover up those weaknesses. Stargate openings are generally weak vs blink/dt play, so they build a quick robo to help fight against that weakness. ofc there are others so just play around and see what you like. The current trend right now is more about getting an expansion down at the natural safely, so i recommend you practice those and dont depend too much on one base builds, although they are still viable but superior players will have a much easier time defending those while getting an expansion. | ||
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blacklist_member
Australia318 Posts
I've been using 3 gate + robo expansion with a couple of immortals(bad build?) and worked pretty good but now that I'm facing diamonds who randomly go mass ling muta and they just crush me. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On July 03 2012 16:57 blacklist_member wrote: What is the safest build for a platinum player in PvZ? I've been using 3 gate + robo expansion with a couple of immortals(bad build?) and worked pretty good but now that I'm facing diamonds who randomly go mass ling muta and they just crush me. Forge fast expand into robo for obs+immortals. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905 For muta stuff: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788 | ||
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blacklist_member
Australia318 Posts
On July 03 2012 17:01 Teoita wrote: Forge fast expand into robo for obs+immortals. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327905 For muta stuff: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=287788 Oh wow, those are pretty well written. Thanks. | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
On July 03 2012 06:04 TheDougler wrote: Hey guys, top 8 gold player here, just recently switched to protoss from zerg not too long ago. I'm having fantastic success in PvZ (3 immortal push SOOOO GOOD) and usually win PvT... but my PvP is AWEFUL. proabbly about 20% win rate now. Where can I go for a a consistent PvP opener. I've tried 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stalker rush. Have been having practically no success. 3 gate robo pressure has been okay... And my stalker micro isn't bad. My zealot micro could use some improvement tho. Tips? I'll try checking out this thread now in the meantime: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240236 I'm a rank 20~ platinum with PvP being my best mu (Currently at 60% win rate) so I hope you can find something useful in this post: 1) What I do in every PvP is being really defensive. I love macro games (Where I can really shine  ) so I tend to turtle hard to punish any aggressive builds. This mean that I go 3gate1robo with two immortals and then expand. This way you can hold 4gates and be ahead in tech.2) Sentries are the key to defending a 4gate. Those few times I lose when I 4gate (As I said, I do this very rarely, only when I think I can get a proxy pylon in his base) is when the guy has a lot of sentries to make a forcefield chain on the ramp (Last game, he took out my proxy pylon before I could warp in so I had to try break up the ramp) 3) Knowing what your opponent is doing is EVERYTHING! Since you have the exact same techs/possible units/etc you need to nkow exactly what he's doing. Take the Xel'Naga Watchtowers, look for his 1z1s1probe moving out to perform a 4gate and try to snipe the probe. 4) NEVER let a pylon finish so that he can warp in at your high ground 5) Up to like... high master, macro is way more important than your micro. You say that your stalker micro is really good, Only micro if you know that you can macro at the same time (Watch your replays, are you missing warp-ins due to that stalker micro?) _______________________________________________________ Hey guys, I played a PvT against a friend yesterday and lost. However I felt that I played at the top of my level. We are both platinum and when I watched the replay I kinda got the feeling that the only feeling it was close was his lacking macro (He was floating a lot more than me) so with better macro he would have CRUSHED me. I believe I responded fast to drops, macroed decent for my level and had quite good engagements. The only thing I noticed is when I a-moved on his middle base my army just ignored his army? Aren't the units supposed to attack everything in their way when you a-move? (This happens around 17 min) Replay: http://drop.sc/213869 Thank you! | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
http://drop.sc/213959 Well there is not much to be said about this game from me. I can't harass because Cloud Kingdom is shit, and then I just die to 200/200 push. Dont know what to do vs this or mech overall. I just die whenever someone goes mech. | ||
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PoesMiAUW
Netherlands7 Posts
It doesnt if you happen to a move on a unit or structure, don't know if that was the case but that messed me up a couple of times. You did some weird things in the game you posted, let me point out a couple of things: - You went for double forge yet failed to get a twilight up in time to get 2/2, the strenght of a double forge is to always be ahead in upgrades. You neglected that and at one point he was actually at 3/3 and you were still on 2/1/0, when you go for double forge you should always be upgrading with it (and chronoing it). - Your engagements weren't that favorable, while he lost only minerals you lost a lot of gas in the engagement in your natural at the start of the game. It put you 1000 resources behind (not that much at plat lvl), but the important thing is that it was quite a bit of gas as opposed to your opponent. - You are too late with tech, you should be able to fit in some HT's sooner to get the deathball niceness really going - In my opinion you can expand a little bit more agressively, your fourth was quite late and so was your fifth. Hope it helps  Overall you were doing just fine, just stick to a specific game plan and you'll do good in the future. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 04 2012 01:37 Daimai wrote: Well obviously mech is the weakest comp in this game and protoss owns mech hard... except then why the fuck did I lose this game? http://drop.sc/213959 Well there is not much to be said about this game from me. I can't harass because Cloud Kingdom is shit, and then I just die to 200/200 push. Dont know what to do vs this or mech overall. I just die whenever someone goes mech. I think you could have handled the Banshee harass better by putting 2 stalkers behind your mineral line, but that's nitpicking. Even with the Banshee coming back for another pass and getting another few kills, you were still ahead and your third was way sooner. So I don't think you started this game on a bad footing, expanding against air harass. If you're not going to deny his third, get your fourth faster. What's he going to do about it? Mech is an immobile army. Punish that by expanding around the map; the only thing he can do is harass with Hellions/Banshees. You can solve that with some cannons at your mineral lines. @21 mintues into the game he is taking his fourth, and you aren't doing anything about it. Why? Because you have no scouting on the map. You don't even take your own watchtower, which is up for grabs. You can't tell me that you didn't have the spare throwaway zealots for that. Come on, man, you can't complain about harassing your opponent when you have no intel on what he's doing and when his army starts moving out of position. @25 minutes into the game, you have not upgraded any armor, you only have one forge and one cyber core, and your +2 air weapons and +1 shields is just finishing up. It's 25 minutes into the game and you've had 4 Nexi and ton of money for ages; if you aren't getting 3-3-3 on everything by this point then you're doing something wrong. The terran army is sieging your 4th right before it gets to 3-3, and Starshaped wasn't exactly rushing to get upgrades on his mech. The in the final engagement, your expansion is picked off, and after that you decide to attack into a sieged GhostMech army when you actually had no reason to attack, since your expansion is already gone. I recommend doing 4 things: 1. Scout better 2. Work on your decision-making 3. Read about TvP Mech 3. Go talk to Starshaped, because he uses these forums. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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Payson
United States394 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:43 aZealot wrote: Hey man, have a read of this too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 By the way, what is this 3 Immortal push you speak of? Is it a variation of the Immortal/Stalker/Sentry +1/+1 push (before ~11 min) but with a 3rd Immortal? You can have 4 immortals with 8-10 sentries + a handful of stalkers and zealots by 10:30 for a push with +1. You have to cut some insane corners and scout well, but it's a powerful build with the extra two immortals in the mix. You can see a VoD on Day 3 of MLG Anaheim in Game 2 or 3 with SaSe doing the build against Stephano on Metropolis. | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
On July 04 2012 06:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: On 7 gate robo, what's the best way to deal w/ mass marine/viking? Colossus + blinkstalker, why would you ask that question? | ||
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-eXalt
United States462 Posts
how do you take a 3rd against a zerg going 11:00 200/200 roach? it's impossible to efficiently wall. you're stuck to 2 base all ins, but they suck on such a massive map. against terran a 4th is nearly impossible as the ramp (at the 4th) just chokes your units and allows vikings to abuse it. anyone else veto-ing this? | ||
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TheDougler
Canada8307 Posts
On July 03 2012 09:43 aZealot wrote: Hey man, have a read of this too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302117 By the way, what is this 3 Immortal push you speak of? Is it a variation of the Immortal/Stalker/Sentry +1/+1 push (before ~11 min) but with a 3rd Immortal? Yeah, San's been rocking it pretty hard lately (think it was him). Anyway I saw it in IPLTAC recently I believe (could've been GSTL, was a team league for sure). It's basically what the protoss are doing in this thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=334504 So yeah, the emphasis is on the sentries and immortals, while the stalkers and zealots are just kinda filler (though when you reinforce you'll want stalkers usually). I've only lost one game against zerg (other then getting six pooled twice) in the around twelve times that I've done it. Control is pretty key... but generally it's a walk in the park. I especially reccomend it on Entombed Valley as it is almost impossible for the zerg to hold their third. They need to walk out an army into the middle of the map and somehow get a sick engagement on you really, because once you're at their third it is over. Usually only has +1 rather than +1/+1 though +1/+! is certainly possible and I do it sometimes. Seriously, try this build. Maybe it's only this effective at lower leagues... But I dunno, I've got a buddy in low masters and he still rocks people with this pretty hard. Ahem, anyway thanks for that thread! I'll give that a read right now. Edit: THAT THREAD IS FANTASTIC THANK YOU SO MUCH. Definitely gonna make 1 gate before robo my go-to build. I've been doing something similar with limited success due to an inefficient build order it looks like. | ||
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Thamel
United States16 Posts
On July 04 2012 08:21 xOny wrote: wtf, hadn't played much this season and WOW the new map (huge desert one, dono the name cause I play on korean server) is absolutely horrible for protoss. how do you take a 3rd against a zerg going 11:00 200/200 roach? it's impossible to efficiently wall. you're stuck to 2 base all ins, but they suck on such a massive map. against terran a 4th is nearly impossible as the ramp (at the 4th) just chokes your units and allows vikings to abuse it. anyone else veto-ing this? Just one look at this map made me wretch as a Protoss player. Wide ramp into nat makes it difficult against early-mid pressure/all ins from zerg/terran, and gl holding a third against dedicated drops or dedicated roach aggression from either of them. The rush distance is just silly honestly. Blizz said they wanted to try "tournament viable" maps, but maps like Ohana/Cloud/Daybreak demonstrate you don't need huge maps to make them macro maps. Protosses that don't veto it are just silly. 2 base all inning zerg is way too difficult with the wide areas you have to work with, and defending any sort of good terran aggression is probably difficult (The rush distance helps here a bit) | ||
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