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On July 06 2012 14:18 ZeromuS wrote:
After I don't die to a six pool and lose no probes, how the hell am I supposed to respond?
On maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom I can avoid losing my nat to a 6 pool. I know this, but in either case what do I do?
Should I go for a FE on maps like Ohana and get stargate tech quickly?
What about maps where I need to hold the 6 pool by giving up my nat?
I seriously have no clue what to do, wing it and often lose.
You can respond a couple of ways, if you don't lose your scouting probe you can proxy a couple gates and win sometimes (learned this from white-ra) You you just go expand and finish him off with a 2 base timing since he is pretty far behind in eco for the first 7-8 minutes
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 06 2012 14:23 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 14:18 ZeromuS wrote:
After I don't die to a six pool and lose no probes, how the hell am I supposed to respond?
On maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom I can avoid losing my nat to a 6 pool. I know this, but in either case what do I do?
Should I go for a FE on maps like Ohana and get stargate tech quickly?
What about maps where I need to hold the 6 pool by giving up my nat?
I seriously have no clue what to do, wing it and often lose. You can respond a couple of ways, if you don't lose your scouting probe you can proxy a couple gates and win sometimes (learned this from white-ra) You you just go expand and finish him off with a 2 base timing since he is pretty far behind in eco for the first 7-8 minutes
But the problem I have is what 2 base timing? If I hold my Natural then my timings are also delayed. If they rush mutas which often happens it turns into some sort of basetrade scenario for me or I walk into a wall of spines. So which 2 base timing? A blink all in could work but are my timings delayed enough that the zerg can hold or basetrade me effectively?
Also, following the previous point: if I don't hold my nat and need to build a cannon in my main to defend, how do I expand? Should I get 2 gate expand? 4 gate expo? Tech expo?
If I go for stalkers to try and control the map if they mass lings and rush speed I don't really get much control and its hard to scout when they have many many lings at my ramp to kill a scouting probe.
I can only really defend one gas with the cannon i build initially so how do I respond to Zerg who can be doing anything and I don't know. I have seen one base roach, or mass speedling which often kills me when I try to take my natural.
I am looking for a reasonably good way to take my nat or win the game and proxying gates relies on the Zerg just not seeing the proxy gates, or not going roaches in some way. And I don't like the coin flip that this provides.
I would post replays but the problem is that I have no clue what to do, and not so much related to execution or lack of scouting. I can understand that I lose due to poor scouting if I had an idea of how to even begin to scout or an idea of how to even react beyond putting a cannon in my mineral line.
After I hold at my nat I often make 2 zealots and try to take back my watchtower. Since I on ohana and cloud, am able to get a forge 2 gates then a cannon down in time to deny zerglings entry into my base. With a couple of zealots I can do some scouting. In this scenario a stargate to get a pheonix to scout and then voidrays if no spire to do a 2 base void ray- 7 gate all in works sometimes, but on the other maps I am clueless.
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On July 06 2012 14:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 14:23 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On July 06 2012 14:18 ZeromuS wrote:
After I don't die to a six pool and lose no probes, how the hell am I supposed to respond?
On maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom I can avoid losing my nat to a 6 pool. I know this, but in either case what do I do?
Should I go for a FE on maps like Ohana and get stargate tech quickly?
What about maps where I need to hold the 6 pool by giving up my nat?
I seriously have no clue what to do, wing it and often lose. You can respond a couple of ways, if you don't lose your scouting probe you can proxy a couple gates and win sometimes (learned this from white-ra) You you just go expand and finish him off with a 2 base timing since he is pretty far behind in eco for the first 7-8 minutes But the problem I have is what 2 base timing? If I hold my Natural then my timings are also delayed. If they rush mutas which often happens it turns into some sort of basetrade scenario for me or I walk into a wall of spines. So which 2 base timing? A blink all in could work but are my timings delayed enough that the zerg can hold or basetrade me effectively? Also, following the previous point: if I don't hold my nat and need to build a cannon in my main to defend, how do I expand? Should I get 2 gate expand? 4 gate expo? Tech expo? If I go for stalkers to try and control the map if they mass lings and rush speed I don't really get much control and its hard to scout when they have many many lings at my ramp to kill a scouting probe. I can only really defend one gas with the cannon i build initially so how do I respond to Zerg who can be doing anything and I don't know. I have seen one base roach, or mass speedling which often kills me when I try to take my natural. I am looking for a reasonably good way to take my nat or win the game and proxying gates relies on the Zerg just not seeing the proxy gates, or not going roaches in some way. And I don't like the coin flip that this provides.
If you hold your natural, 7gate +2 blink is a good general follow up that will most likely kill him. it's delayed, but it's still good since most zergs will take 3 base if you manage to ffe depite their 6 pool. this means their timings are delayed as well (hopefully more than yours). and really your tech should be coming down faster than a typical ffe since you had to wall with gates to keep your nat.
if you only hold your main you can have some trouble ( i recently discovered that there isn't enough room for a gate and cyber core behind the minerals on ohana =\) but typically a 3 gate sentry expand is fine. just get hallucination after warpgate to scout.
a lot oft he time people who cheese on the ladder don't follow up well and play way too greedily so i've won by just going 4gate blink as well. ( 4gate attack and teching to blink)
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On July 06 2012 14:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2012 14:23 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On July 06 2012 14:18 ZeromuS wrote:
After I don't die to a six pool and lose no probes, how the hell am I supposed to respond?
On maps like Ohana and Cloud Kingdom I can avoid losing my nat to a 6 pool. I know this, but in either case what do I do?
Should I go for a FE on maps like Ohana and get stargate tech quickly?
What about maps where I need to hold the 6 pool by giving up my nat?
I seriously have no clue what to do, wing it and often lose. You can respond a couple of ways, if you don't lose your scouting probe you can proxy a couple gates and win sometimes (learned this from white-ra) You you just go expand and finish him off with a 2 base timing since he is pretty far behind in eco for the first 7-8 minutes But the problem I have is what 2 base timing? If I hold my Natural then my timings are also delayed. If they rush mutas which often happens it turns into some sort of basetrade scenario for me or I walk into a wall of spines. So which 2 base timing? A blink all in could work but are my timings delayed enough that the zerg can hold or basetrade me effectively? Also, following the previous point: if I don't hold my nat and need to build a cannon in my main to defend, how do I expand? Should I get 2 gate expand? 4 gate expo? Tech expo? If I go for stalkers to try and control the map if they mass lings and rush speed I don't really get much control and its hard to scout when they have many many lings at my ramp to kill a scouting probe. I can only really defend one gas with the cannon i build initially so how do I respond to Zerg who can be doing anything and I don't know. I have seen one base roach, or mass speedling which often kills me when I try to take my natural. I am looking for a reasonably good way to take my nat or win the game and proxying gates relies on the Zerg just not seeing the proxy gates, or not going roaches in some way. And I don't like the coin flip that this provides. I would post replays but the problem is that I have no clue what to do, and not so much related to execution or lack of scouting. I can understand that I lose due to poor scouting if I had an idea of how to even begin to scout or an idea of how to even react beyond putting a cannon in my mineral line. After I hold at my nat I often make 2 zealots and try to take back my watchtower. Since I on ohana and cloud, am able to get a forge 2 gates then a cannon down in time to deny zerglings entry into my base. With a couple of zealots I can do some scouting. In this scenario a stargate to get a pheonix to scout and then voidrays if no spire to do a 2 base void ray- 7 gate all in works sometimes, but on the other maps I am clueless.
I'd suggest a 1 gate expand and following it up with a 2 base blink all-in.
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Hello helpers,
How was I supposed to react to this thing http://drop.sc/215485
I was trying to go parting style, he was doing a terran build.
Thanks
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Why do you think you lost? No thoughts of your own? Don't even want to take the effort to identify your opponent's build?
Work on your unit control. Don't engage marine marauder with mostly sentries and no zealots, especially if you have a warpin cycle, open supply, and money (first fight). After he gets stim, warp in enough sentries to make force fields, as few stalkers as you can, and zealots. Zealots have twice the DPS of stalkers so if you can make sure they hit with force fields, stalkers are basically a waste of money. In the end, he did a micro-intensive build and your unit control and composition were subpar. It just takes practice.
Your build was also odd in several ways; I recommend looking up some replays and looking for their builds.
edit:
On July 06 2012 18:50 TheFlexN wrote:Hello helpers, How was I supposed to react to this thing http://drop.sc/215485I was trying to go parting style, he was doing a terran build. Thanks
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with regards to the 6 pool, if you've held your natural then you've pretty much won, just any kind of 2 base timing attack should be impossible to stop, take your pick (+2 attack blink stalker, 3/3 immortal + warp prism + 7/8 gates, early 6 gate etc), see what works for you.
I believe if you've lost your natural but haven't sustained major economic damage 3 gate expand is the 'safest response'...but as with a normal 3 gate expand you have to pressure with it, if he played too greedy he should just die to this, and if not his aggressive follow-up should be easily defended by your 3 gates. I feel like 1 gate expand means if he just only makes drones and plays recklessly greedy you can't punish him and he can get back in the game that way...it's been a while since I faced this situation so correct me if I'm wrong but I feel there's timings where if he went gas afterwards he can kill you with mass lings or roaches (if the map doesn't have an easily defendable natural like shakuras).
Just remember if you are going to 3 gate sentry expand, that many scenarios you may die to poor execution rather than it being 'the wrong build'. If you can, on your way to your opponents base try and 'hug walls' so if mass lings appear you can be safe with minimum of forcefields
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On July 04 2012 15:33 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 15:12 jcroisdale wrote:On July 04 2012 15:08 Misuari wrote:
Hey guys. I really need help on my PvZ. How do you scout the zerg's base a second time after his pool is done and ur robo is not yet built. i played 2 games , i scouted a 14pool and 15hatch , so i thought it would be a macro game , but the zerg built a nydus network and mass lings and queens into my base . it really pisses me off and i dont know what to do. another game is about the Muta , Ling / Roach build. what to you do when a big battle accures and a bunch of muta is attacking ur base too . you go for it or you pull back to defend? simple scout his third. If he doesnt have a third building by 5 minutes you can be sure an all-in is coming. No you cant. What you need is map presence. If you see many lings out you need to add a second cannon and try to scout the nat. Luckily if you see gas its probably tech. If you are lucky and you get a probe snuck into the main check his gas and if more than 100 has been taken prepare for an all in. If overlords are hanging out near the base it might be nydus. Unfortunately, to know if its nydus or banelings or roaches relies on timings to a certain extent that you learn as you go. Just be sure to try and shoo away any stray ovies whenever possible. And also try to put some zealots on the map for map control. If he is 2 base with no lings out on the map might be 2 base mutas or infestors which you can verify with an obs or pheonix if you open robo or star respectively. Would need replays to offer more direct help.
agreed, there are 2 base muta and 2 base infestor openings that are not all-in.
you can try and hide a probe somewhere and run it into his base before his zerglings catch it. also if you make a zealot send that out to get some info, if he gets surrounded and killed by mass speedlings there could be some bust coming. If you feel you're about to be all-inned just chrono out sentries, make sure your wall is good, cannons behind buildings not part of wall, wall buildings preferably gateways (pylons are weak). Also if I scout gas, even if just for early speedlings to deny proxy pylons I get a second cannon to be a bit safer and because he got early gas his economy won't be amazing so I can afford an extra cannon.
Then once you know the front is perfectly safe just have to worry about nydus (early drops as well but if you are going robo i don't think drops can hit before your obs spots funky stuff going on, then warp in stalkers and shoot overlords), for this just have vision over all your base, build your pylons around the edge keeping vision everywhere, if you don't need any more pylons but still have an area without vision if you're scared of nydus you can have a probe patrol. Once you spot the nydus even if you have little units if you surround it with probes it dies very quickly (preferably before any units get out)
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On July 04 2012 01:37 Daimai wrote:Well obviously mech is the weakest comp in this game and protoss owns mech hard... except then why the fuck did I lose this game? http://drop.sc/213959Well there is not much to be said about this game from me. I can't harass because Cloud Kingdom is shit, and then I just die to 200/200 push. Dont know what to do vs this or mech overall. I just die whenever someone goes mech.
I don't understand if this is sarcasm or not? Do not underestimate mech under any circumstances, a 200/200 mech army with extra terran units (e.g. some ghosts usually) is pretty much unbeatable in a straight fight if positioned correctly and engaging correctly.
it's actually really hard to give good advice to "what do I do against mech" because tvp mech can be played so many different ways.
from playing various mech tvp some advice would be that as soon as you scout it's not a marine tank 2 base 'all-in' type thing most mech players will want to turtle whilst harrassing, so try and be greedy with an early third which you did right.
he killed so many workers, there were times where you could have reacted faster or early game had your stalkers closer to your mineral line (with maybe one unit at the xel naga so you know you're safe from frontal attacks).
a hellion attack on third killed pretty much every probe there, for this try and use pylon and gateway to wall it off from one side and leave a sentry there so you can forcefield the only entrance to mineral line provided you've walled, while your army gets back.
also the engagement at the end was really bad, he had a good position, you had other nexus, I personally would have run the probes, given that nexus up and then attack him later when he's unsieged. you could have tried to counter attack somewhere else rather than attack into him like that. no matter what unit composition you had you probably would have lost there if he hit the emps, never just panic attack into a siege line like that.
I don't really want to comment on the air switch because it's not a bad decision, it can work, sometimes it doesn't work. I personally don't do it but if that's how you find most effective at defeating mechy styles then go for it. what you need for it to work though is you templar to be able to help out by storming any viking that try and snipe your mothership, therefore you need for him to attack into you, or to catch him unsieged because like that engagement every templar died before doing anything from siege tanks.
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Hotkey all gates Y/N?
EDIT: Reason I ask is because people are telling my friend to not hotkey them and just use W, while I'm saying hotkey all gates and use that hotkey to warp in with. With the reasoning that you wouldn't need to look at your base to transform gateways.
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On July 07 2012 12:00 iTzSnypah wrote:
Hotkey all gates Y/N?
EDIT: Reason I ask is because people are telling my friend to not hotkey them and just use W, while I'm saying hotkey all gates and use that hotkey to warp in with. With the reasoning that you wouldn't need to look at your base to transform gateways.
That's really a personal preference thing. I don't hotkey any of my gateways and just click on the "gateway complete" note on the left and change them that way. There's no downside to hotkeying them that I can think of though.
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will someone coach me? D: i'm a plat zerg trying to switch to protoss. is this the right place to ask for such a thing? if it isn't pls don't b& me based tl mods. my char code is rjc.414
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Hello all.
I'm a gold league player and have been recently losing a lot to the banshee+tank+marauder composition and was wondering what the best way to beat this was. My only guess would be to get high templar. Is that correct? Here's a replay : http://drop.sc/216455 (this particular person didn't get many marauders.).
Also, in the games where the Terran goes MMM, but with a lot more marauders than marines, I'm supposed to get high templar+chargelots and fewer stalkers right?
Thanks.
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Hi all. I'm a fairly new player that played season 7 as Terran and was top 10 bronze, now season 8 is here I want to learn Protoss.
All I want is two builds, one for when they early expand for which I chose the trusty 4 gate as I am in the lower leagues ( I think this is fine).
The question I have is when my opponent seems to be going for a timing / 1 base push etc I want another build to counter this build with the opportunity of expanding. I am stuck between the 2 Gate Robo expand and the 3 Gate Robo expand, So generally speaking which is safer build to hold 1 base / timing / all in etc for a lower league player like myself?
Thanks
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How do you play against ''bad'' players? I've just played a PVT where he pushed before he got medivacs at around 9:45 when they were just finishing off of a standard 1 rax FE opener. I base my build around getting enough units to defend at 10:30 which is around the time medivacs normally hit. It just seems like if I was doing any kind of pressure but he gambled and won. Also he moved out with his units at 6:00? like.. any 6-7 gate would've killed him but because I was doing a collosus opener I couldn't punish it.
Also, in PvP he got 2 bases I had expanded around 30 seconds earlier off of 2 gate robo, but he pushed with like 4 immortals and a ton of gate units. Nobody ever does that because if I had done anything else apart from what I was doing (which was teching which is what you're meant to do off of 2 base) I would've held it. I feel like playing against bad players is down right hard. If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard. If they play wacky you get killed by playing standard. I'm at a loss of what to do.
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On July 07 2012 21:01 Abusion wrote:
How do you play against ''bad'' players? I've just played a PVT where he pushed before he got medivacs at around 9:45 when they were just finishing off of a standard 1 rax FE opener. I base my build around getting enough units to defend at 10:30 which is around the time medivacs normally hit. It just seems like if I was doing any kind of pressure but he gambled and won. Also he moved out with his units at 6:00? like.. any 6-7 gate would've killed him but because I was doing a collosus opener I couldn't punish it.
Also, in PvP he got 2 bases I had expanded around 30 seconds earlier off of 2 gate robo, but he pushed with like 4 immortals and a ton of gate units. Nobody ever does that because if I had done anything else apart from what I was doing (which was teching which is what you're meant to do off of 2 base) I would've held it. I feel like playing against bad players is down right hard. If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard. If they play wacky you get killed by playing standard. I'm at a loss of what to do.
A big part of this game is the fact that neither player has perfect information, so there is a gambling factor to a lot of this. A lot of aspiring poker players also think about how to play against "bad" players; players who don't know what they're doing and don't play by the traditional guidelines, but somehow come ahead winning at your expense. You have to remember that there are reasons why you play the way that you do, and much of standard play (in both Poker and Starcraft) has to do with math and playing the odds to your favor as best as possible.
For PvT, you need to stop using the game clock as your timing indicator and instead you need to go check out his Factory/Starport timing. From the moment the Factory starts to the time Medivacs are in your base is about 3 to 3 and a half minutes, depending on rush distances and air pathing. If some kind of crazy cheese happens in the game, Medivacs might be coming at the 13 minute mark. If a base trade normalizes into a regular game, it might be a 20 minute medivac timing. Or if your opponent decides that he wants to tech hard before he gets his expansion, then you need to be ready for a 9 minute timing. You're playing against a human opponent in a chaotic game, not against a robot on a chessboard.
In mirror matches, if you're getting hit by weird timings, don't blame your opponents. PvP is so much about metagaming, you can't really knock anyone for cheesing or doing a whack timing.
It would help tremendously if you posted some replays, by the way.
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On July 08 2012 03:29 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 21:01 Abusion wrote:
How do you play against ''bad'' players? I've just played a PVT where he pushed before he got medivacs at around 9:45 when they were just finishing off of a standard 1 rax FE opener. I base my build around getting enough units to defend at 10:30 which is around the time medivacs normally hit. It just seems like if I was doing any kind of pressure but he gambled and won. Also he moved out with his units at 6:00? like.. any 6-7 gate would've killed him but because I was doing a collosus opener I couldn't punish it.
Also, in PvP he got 2 bases I had expanded around 30 seconds earlier off of 2 gate robo, but he pushed with like 4 immortals and a ton of gate units. Nobody ever does that because if I had done anything else apart from what I was doing (which was teching which is what you're meant to do off of 2 base) I would've held it. I feel like playing against bad players is down right hard. If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard. If they play wacky you get killed by playing standard. I'm at a loss of what to do. A big part of this game is the fact that neither player has perfect information, so there is a gambling factor to a lot of this. A lot of aspiring poker players also think about how to play against "bad" players; players who don't know what they're doing and don't play by the traditional guidelines, but somehow come ahead winning at your expense. You have to remember that there are reasons why you play the way that you do, and much of standard play (in both Poker and Starcraft) has to do with math and playing the odds to your favor as best as possible. For PvT, you need to stop using the game clock as your timing indicator and instead you need to go check out his Factory/Starport timing. From the moment the Factory starts to the time Medivacs are in your base is about 3 to 3 and a half minutes, depending on rush distances and air pathing. If some kind of crazy cheese happens in the game, Medivacs might be coming at the 13 minute mark. If a base trade normalizes into a regular game, it might be a 20 minute medivac timing. Or if your opponent decides that he wants to tech hard before he gets his expansion, then you need to be ready for a 9 minute timing. You're playing against a human opponent in a chaotic game, not against a robot on a chessboard. In mirror matches, if you're getting hit by weird timings, don't blame your opponents. PvP is so much about metagaming, you can't really knock anyone for cheesing or doing a whack timing. It would help tremendously if you posted some replays, by the way.
I'll see if I can dig out the replay. The PvT was a very standard 1 rax expo so everything was on time. Thats why I mentioned tohe 10:30 timing. He didn't tech hard. He got up the other ramp at the front of Daybreak which was terrible for me. I just feel like he would never run in without medivacs because if, I for example had been going templar and had stormed his army I would've counter attacked for the win. Playing against stupid people is actually so hard lol. I'm not blaming him for doing something wacky. PvP used to be my favourite MU until I realised no matter how good you are you can still lose not saying I can't improve just saying its pretty retarded.
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On July 07 2012 21:01 Abusion wrote:
How do you play against ''bad'' players? I've just played a PVT where he pushed before he got medivacs at around 9:45 when they were just finishing off of a standard 1 rax FE opener. I base my build around getting enough units to defend at 10:30 which is around the time medivacs normally hit. It just seems like if I was doing any kind of pressure but he gambled and won. Also he moved out with his units at 6:00? like.. any 6-7 gate would've killed him but because I was doing a collosus opener I couldn't punish it.
Also, in PvP he got 2 bases I had expanded around 30 seconds earlier off of 2 gate robo, but he pushed with like 4 immortals and a ton of gate units. Nobody ever does that because if I had done anything else apart from what I was doing (which was teching which is what you're meant to do off of 2 base) I would've held it. I feel like playing against bad players is down right hard. If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard. If they play wacky you get killed by playing standard. I'm at a loss of what to do.
I wouldn't use the term 'bad', especially for someone you lost to. Unpredictable or unorthodox would be a better word.
Anyway for the PvT for the 6:00 move out, I actually know that some terrans realise protoss try to skimp on making units to get their tech and gateway count up so they try and apply some pressure, if he scanned your base and saw what you were doing this may have been a smart move, not bad play.
did you have an obs just outside his base? this is necessary just incase he moves out at a weird time, you should be able to get 2 warp-ins in time and with sufficient unit control hold him off. Also your post is slightly ambiguous, do you mean his medivac push came earlier than usual....or he pushed before his medivacs came out and attacked without medivacs.
for the pvp I'm guessing you lost due to lack of scouting. you say he had 2 bases, but did he cut probes, maybe that caught you out? also if you scout there no robo bay or colossus, no twilight, and he's added a lot of gateways you should have been aware this push was coming, a replay would help, but if you were going for colossus surely you could have used the cliff to micro keeping it alive and just holding on...obviously after spotting what he planned, cutting probe production and spamming units to survive. hard to analyse too much without replays
"If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard"-to me this doesn't make sense. Standard play is standard because it is safe. If he is playing standard and you are playing standard is anybody behind?
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On July 07 2012 20:01 Rex2288 wrote:
Hi all. I'm a fairly new player that played season 7 as Terran and was top 10 bronze, now season 8 is here I want to learn Protoss.
All I want is two builds, one for when they early expand for which I chose the trusty 4 gate as I am in the lower leagues ( I think this is fine).
The question I have is when my opponent seems to be going for a timing / 1 base push etc I want another build to counter this build with the opportunity of expanding. I am stuck between the 2 Gate Robo expand and the 3 Gate Robo expand, So generally speaking which is safer build to hold 1 base / timing / all in etc for a lower league player like myself?
Thanks
my housemate was in bronze (or silver?) recently. What I would suggest is that if you just play 3 gate robo expand (unless he's all-inning). then when 2nd base is done tech to colossi adding 2 gates to bring you to 5, and a forge for upgrades. then you can either do a really strong timing attack with your 2nd colossus and range, or take a third when you have a collosus so feel safe.....doing something like this will give you a very high winrate if you execute well. Obviously you can do something different if this isn't your style but knowing my housemate the reason lower league players macro is poor is because when they start the game they have no solid plan in mind after early game often, so when they should be checking supply to see if they need pylons, or making sure they warp in on time, they're spending 10 seconds wondering what to do whilst their money is skyrocketing.
tl;dr 3 gate robo expand is obviously safer...and have a plan
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo
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On July 08 2012 04:40 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 21:01 Abusion wrote:
How do you play against ''bad'' players? I've just played a PVT where he pushed before he got medivacs at around 9:45 when they were just finishing off of a standard 1 rax FE opener. I base my build around getting enough units to defend at 10:30 which is around the time medivacs normally hit. It just seems like if I was doing any kind of pressure but he gambled and won. Also he moved out with his units at 6:00? like.. any 6-7 gate would've killed him but because I was doing a collosus opener I couldn't punish it.
Also, in PvP he got 2 bases I had expanded around 30 seconds earlier off of 2 gate robo, but he pushed with like 4 immortals and a ton of gate units. Nobody ever does that because if I had done anything else apart from what I was doing (which was teching which is what you're meant to do off of 2 base) I would've held it. I feel like playing against bad players is down right hard. If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard. If they play wacky you get killed by playing standard. I'm at a loss of what to do. I wouldn't use the term 'bad', especially for someone you lost to. Unpredictable or unorthodox would be a better word. Anyway for the PvT for the 6:00 move out, I actually know that some terrans realise protoss try to skimp on making units to get their tech and gateway count up so they try and apply some pressure, if he scanned your base and saw what you were doing this may have been a smart move, not bad play. did you have an obs just outside his base? this is necessary just incase he moves out at a weird time, you should be able to get 2 warp-ins in time and with sufficient unit control hold him off. Also your post is slightly ambiguous, do you mean his medivac push came earlier than usual....or he pushed before his medivacs came out and attacked without medivacs. for the pvp I'm guessing you lost due to lack of scouting. you say he had 2 bases, but did he cut probes, maybe that caught you out? also if you scout there no robo bay or colossus, no twilight, and he's added a lot of gateways you should have been aware this push was coming, a replay would help, but if you were going for colossus surely you could have used the cliff to micro keeping it alive and just holding on...obviously after spotting what he planned, cutting probe production and spamming units to survive. hard to analyse too much without replays "If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard"-to me this doesn't make sense. Standard play is standard because it is safe. If he is playing standard and you are playing standard is anybody behind?
I feel that it is bad because they just shouldn't do it compared to what they're scouting. He scanned and scouted my robo but that was after he moved out at around 6:30. I can't keep an obs outside his base because I keep it inside to see whether he's making 2 rax before 3rd CC or 2 rax after to see whether he's really pressuring or not. Both require different repsonses. If he pushes I am fine with holding 4 rax pushes and stuff by just warping in. He pushed without medivacs at 9:30 off of 3 rax after 1 rax FE.
In the PvP I think I lost due to lack of scouting too. I had to keep my obs away from his army and his base because he made 2 obs off of a robo. I went immortal drops and they arrived at his base as he was moving out. So I picked up and went home and he pushed then so kinda bad for me, but 1 collosi without range kinda sucks but that build doesn't account for people pushing off of immortals and gates...
"If you play safe you're playing from behind if they play standard" Standard play means it is safe vs standard. Safe means it is safe vs everything. In PvP and PvT if you don't cut at least some corners you're going to die. That's the way I feel at least.
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EPT
