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On January 31 2012 14:56 MicroJordan wrote:
recently got to gold with terran but I'm thinking i may switch to protoss, or at the very least play them for a little bit. What are some good builds (preferably one for each matchup) that i should be using?
Hey mate.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266786
Here is a link to standard openings as protoss. They are as basic as you can get so learn and enjoy playing Protoss.
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So in PvZ I've been doing the +1 zealot/voidray in response to a fast third and then trying to go into 4 base turtle mode no stalker style ala rsvp/kdcd's guide. However, what I've been having trouble with is of course...mutas T_T. I had a game where I killed the third actually really easy and then I sent a phoenix over to scout later to see what he was doing and I ran into about 20 mutas. Turns out he had just been banking resources and that's why he had nothing to defend the third really. At this point, I have storm on the way but literally no anti air except some voids. It seems like I'm basically screwed as I don't have enough units to defend the all three bases. Cannons wont finish in time, etc. At this point is it best to just abandon the third, warp in stalkers elsewhere and wait till I have enough units to defend? Seems like no matter what the zerg is gonna do a lot of damage.
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Hello!
I am a random platinum player who recently switched to playing protoss. My question is, how do you cheese as protoss? I already know the basic macro builds (1 gate FE, FFE, 3 gate expand and 1 gate 1 robo expand) but I don't know how to 4 gate, zealot rush, immortal bust and all the other types of pressure builds that Protoss has. I also don't know how to follow up my expand well (excepting adding gateways and pushing with blink stalkers, and collosi).
Any ideas?
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On January 31 2012 19:47 Chelch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 07:23 bankai wrote:On January 30 2012 21:49 Chelch wrote:
Could anyone give me some tips for dealing with infestor/broodlord?
I'm trying to use mothership + archons, but all the Zergs make 100s of spine crawlers, and split their broodlords so that I cant vortex everything.
Do I just need to be very aggressive, and kill him before he gets them? I can upload a replay if need be You may find it helpful watching the Brown vs Losira game on Daybreak that was discussed in a thread by Monk. In the final battle, it is pretty much infestor/broodlord (cant remember if Losira had other stuff) versus Colossus/Carriers/Archon/Mothership/Stalkers (?). . I've watched that, and do that style, but most Zergs dont put all their broods into a vortex
Uhm.. That's why you have to bait them to being stacked, then you vortex them...
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On January 31 2012 22:27 -YoricK- wrote:
So in PvZ I've been doing the +1 zealot/voidray in response to a fast third and then trying to go into 4 base turtle mode no stalker style ala rsvp/kdcd's guide. However, what I've been having trouble with is of course...mutas T_T. I had a game where I killed the third actually really easy and then I sent a phoenix over to scout later to see what he was doing and I ran into about 20 mutas. Turns out he had just been banking resources and that's why he had nothing to defend the third really. At this point, I have storm on the way but literally no anti air except some voids. It seems like I'm basically screwed as I don't have enough units to defend the all three bases. Cannons wont finish in time, etc. At this point is it best to just abandon the third, warp in stalkers elsewhere and wait till I have enough units to defend? Seems like no matter what the zerg is gonna do a lot of damage.
Would help if you post a replay. Anyways here are some things to think about:
1) Did you chronoboost that phoenix asap to get scouting done after you made 1-2 voidrays?
2) Did you pressure his natural after the third went down? This can force him to reveal his tech and if you still see only lings, lair tech is the most obvious tech choice by the zerg.
3) I'd recommend you to not take a third until you know what he's up to, it's rather risky.
4) I think it might be a good idea to chronoboost some phoenixes too, as well as making stalkers/cannons and getting blink. Not sure about the facts but I have seen Axslav do similar things, usually throwing down a second stargate even.
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This has probably been answered before, but I can't find the answer.
By the 'end-game' mark, what are the maximum amount of probes we should have? Normally I have 65-70 to keep a 3base saturation at all times, but what is the optimal number right now? This question refers to the point where probes should not be produced at all anymore.
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What's the consensus on Pylon block on Barracks addon in PvT? It goes something like throw down a Pylon next to their Barracks after scouting gas, and then canceling right before it completes. The idea is that you can scout Rax openers versus Fac openers. Is it worth it, or is it better to try and Stalker scout?
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On February 01 2012 02:01 Alkajak wrote:
This has probably been answered before, but I can't find the answer.
By the 'end-game' mark, what are the maximum amount of probes we should have? Normally I have 65-70 to keep a 3base saturation at all times, but what is the optimal number right now? This question refers to the point where probes should not be produced at all anymore.
The optimal amount is 2 probes per mineral and 3 per gas. Ddding and multiplying the numbers you get 66. However you usually want more than that. Sometimes you get more income from having more than 2 workers per mineral, you might take a fourth base and maybe you want to use probes for other tasks such as building stuff, making proxy pylons and grabbing xel naga towers. The upper limit should be somewhere around 80 though, or your army will begin getting too small.
On February 01 2012 02:01 Acritter wrote:
What's the consensus on Pylon block on Barracks addon in PvT? It goes something like throw down a Pylon next to their Barracks after scouting gas, and then canceling right before it completes. The idea is that you can scout Rax openers versus Fac openers. Is it worth it, or is it better to try and Stalker scout?
If your opener is safe against both fast hellions, banshees etc and rax timings such as concussive shell rush and 2rax I don't think it's necessary. It might help you with the scouting though so it's a good idea. If you open 13gate and get zealot stalker you should usually be throwing down your third pylon at 22-23 food but it can also be delayed until 25. Maybe you can make the 22-23 pylon at his rax and cancel it and make another at 25? you might have some downtime on the nexus or gateway or maybe a slight supply block but I think it should be fine.
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On February 01 2012 01:14 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 19:47 Chelch wrote:On January 31 2012 07:23 bankai wrote:On January 30 2012 21:49 Chelch wrote:
Could anyone give me some tips for dealing with infestor/broodlord?
I'm trying to use mothership + archons, but all the Zergs make 100s of spine crawlers, and split their broodlords so that I cant vortex everything.
Do I just need to be very aggressive, and kill him before he gets them? I can upload a replay if need be You may find it helpful watching the Brown vs Losira game on Daybreak that was discussed in a thread by Monk. In the final battle, it is pretty much infestor/broodlord (cant remember if Losira had other stuff) versus Colossus/Carriers/Archon/Mothership/Stalkers (?). . I've watched that, and do that style, but most Zergs dont put all their broods into a vortex Uhm.. That's why you have to bait them to being stacked, then you vortex them...
Sorry, I need to explain my problem properly, I didn't do it right.
It gets to the point where they sit with their broods under a ton of spines, and just wait for me to attack them, even if I kill all their bases, I just can't kill their army. I don't understand what composition I need to do it. So I guess I was thinking I just needed to be more aggressive to stop that from happening, am I correct in this thinking? Is prevention the best counter to this, or is there something I can actually do?
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On February 01 2012 04:17 Chelch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:14 mizU wrote:On January 31 2012 19:47 Chelch wrote:On January 31 2012 07:23 bankai wrote:On January 30 2012 21:49 Chelch wrote:
Could anyone give me some tips for dealing with infestor/broodlord?
I'm trying to use mothership + archons, but all the Zergs make 100s of spine crawlers, and split their broodlords so that I cant vortex everything.
Do I just need to be very aggressive, and kill him before he gets them? I can upload a replay if need be You may find it helpful watching the Brown vs Losira game on Daybreak that was discussed in a thread by Monk. In the final battle, it is pretty much infestor/broodlord (cant remember if Losira had other stuff) versus Colossus/Carriers/Archon/Mothership/Stalkers (?). . I've watched that, and do that style, but most Zergs dont put all their broods into a vortex Uhm.. That's why you have to bait them to being stacked, then you vortex them... Sorry, I need to explain my problem properly, I didn't do it right. It gets to the point where they sit with their broods under a ton of spines, and just wait for me to attack them, even if I kill all their bases, I just can't kill their army. I don't understand what composition I need to do it. So I guess I was thinking I just needed to be more aggressive to stop that from happening, am I correct in this thinking? Is prevention the best counter to this, or is there something I can actually do?
Why would you have you attack into them?
You're already on 6+ bases?
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Canada13401 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:27 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:17 Chelch wrote:On February 01 2012 01:14 mizU wrote:On January 31 2012 19:47 Chelch wrote:On January 31 2012 07:23 bankai wrote:On January 30 2012 21:49 Chelch wrote:
Could anyone give me some tips for dealing with infestor/broodlord?
I'm trying to use mothership + archons, but all the Zergs make 100s of spine crawlers, and split their broodlords so that I cant vortex everything.
Do I just need to be very aggressive, and kill him before he gets them? I can upload a replay if need be You may find it helpful watching the Brown vs Losira game on Daybreak that was discussed in a thread by Monk. In the final battle, it is pretty much infestor/broodlord (cant remember if Losira had other stuff) versus Colossus/Carriers/Archon/Mothership/Stalkers (?). . I've watched that, and do that style, but most Zergs dont put all their broods into a vortex Uhm.. That's why you have to bait them to being stacked, then you vortex them... Sorry, I need to explain my problem properly, I didn't do it right. It gets to the point where they sit with their broods under a ton of spines, and just wait for me to attack them, even if I kill all their bases, I just can't kill their army. I don't understand what composition I need to do it. So I guess I was thinking I just needed to be more aggressive to stop that from happening, am I correct in this thinking? Is prevention the best counter to this, or is there something I can actually do? Why would you have you attack into them? You're already on 6+ bases?
Yeah. The best thing to do is sit back, defend if he pushes and try to harass his outlying bases either with small numbers of blink stalkers or warp prisms or something like that. I think the best example of the turtle but harass style was Hero vs Dimaga game 3 on shattered from IEM Kiev.
Spine wall + broodlords? No problem storm drops and zealot drops and blink stalker harass.
You can't really do this against Zerg on metal though. Too much air space between bases which corrupters can control to deny warp prisms and sitting on top of the gold with broodlords. means that they don't need to move very far to either harass your gold, or defend either of the 2 attack paths.
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On February 01 2012 04:27 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:17 Chelch wrote:On February 01 2012 01:14 mizU wrote:On January 31 2012 19:47 Chelch wrote:On January 31 2012 07:23 bankai wrote:On January 30 2012 21:49 Chelch wrote:
Could anyone give me some tips for dealing with infestor/broodlord?
I'm trying to use mothership + archons, but all the Zergs make 100s of spine crawlers, and split their broodlords so that I cant vortex everything.
Do I just need to be very aggressive, and kill him before he gets them? I can upload a replay if need be You may find it helpful watching the Brown vs Losira game on Daybreak that was discussed in a thread by Monk. In the final battle, it is pretty much infestor/broodlord (cant remember if Losira had other stuff) versus Colossus/Carriers/Archon/Mothership/Stalkers (?). . I've watched that, and do that style, but most Zergs dont put all their broods into a vortex Uhm.. That's why you have to bait them to being stacked, then you vortex them... Sorry, I need to explain my problem properly, I didn't do it right. It gets to the point where they sit with their broods under a ton of spines, and just wait for me to attack them, even if I kill all their bases, I just can't kill their army. I don't understand what composition I need to do it. So I guess I was thinking I just needed to be more aggressive to stop that from happening, am I correct in this thinking? Is prevention the best counter to this, or is there something I can actually do? Why would you have you attack into them? You're already on 6+ bases?
Yeah, but then nobody moves, at all, I want to win, not draw 
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On January 31 2012 22:33 coriamon wrote:
Hello!
I am a random platinum player who recently switched to playing protoss. My question is, how do you cheese as protoss? I already know the basic macro builds (1 gate FE, FFE, 3 gate expand and 1 gate 1 robo expand) but I don't know how to 4 gate, zealot rush, immortal bust and all the other types of pressure builds that Protoss has. I also don't know how to follow up my expand well (excepting adding gateways and pushing with blink stalkers, and collosi).
Any ideas?
Here's a good one for PvP (it works really well up through diamond, like 80%+ winrate, and still works in masters but not quite as well)
Korean 4-gate blitz
9 pylon
9 gateway
chrono 10th probe (only chrono you will spend on nexus)
12 assim (scout with this guy, check for proxy gates/cannons and go thru the watchtower if 4 player map)
14 put 1 guy in gas, build cyber, put probe that built cyber in gas (for 2 in gas total, only mine 50 gas)
14 zealot (rallied to enemies mineral line, ignore his probe scout, and if it's a 4 player map and you haven't scouted him yet rally the zealot to the base you will scout LAST)
start WG and chrono it nonstop (5 chrono boosts)
make 2 more probes (you will be 18/18 for a while)
add 3 more gates right after your second chrono boost on the cyber core.
Now here's the part where you need to micro. You need to be careful to keep your scouting probe alive, if he gets a zealot and you're afraid you will lose your probe just go down his ramp and wait for your zealot to arrive. If you think your probe is about to die or it does die, IMMEDIATELY send another one towards his base and build another. Build a pylon at the bottom of his ramp (can be out of sight of his units if your zealot is really far away), but as soon as your zealot arrives have him go up the ramp and RUN to the mineral line, not fighting anything. The point is that he will hopefully chase the zealot with his zealot or stalker and that gives you time to sneak your probe in and build 2-3 more pylons in his main. Try to build 1 pylon somewhere in the corner that he can't see, then build 1 or 2 obnoxiously close to his mineral line, ideally they should be surrounded by his gateways/pylons so he can't surround it with probes.
Your kill-priority should be
Artosis Pylons
Stalkers
Probes
Zealots
If he built 3-4 gates around one pylon then as long as you snipe it you will pretty much auto-win. I like to put one zealot on each stalker he has, and then send 1-2 zealots to his mineral line (hold position or shift+click as many probes as you can)
while still remembering to chrono your gateways at home. If you're killing tons of probes but he's microing pretty well and gets a warp-in of zealots+stalkers, just keep prioritizing probe kills and start chroning your nexus and getting guys back in gas + building 1 or 2 more pylons in your main. At this point you should be in a good spot to transition, if you can just defend his push with a sentry and some stalkers then you will be at a huge advantage. Just gotta be careful there are no pylons in your main because usually you will ignore his scouting probe so it could still be in your base.
If he goes for defensive cannons, you can keep guys in gas and go 3-4 gate stalker pressure, unless he has perfect cannon placement there are always going to be buildings/units that your stalkers can kill. As long as you make sure he doesn't get cannons up in your main, you can expand safely behind this as well.
If you see him starting to build a wall by his ramp, keep your probe in his base for as long as possible, and send another probe towards his nat as well. if the zealot is nearby and his wall is almost complete, you can "finish" his wall with a pylon of your own, and then just cancel it once your zealot arrives.
And of course vs proxy gates just build a second gate instead of your cyber and chrnno out zealots, you will be fine since your first gateway was so early.
So there you have it, as you can probably tell I have done this build hundreds of time on ladder and it's one of the best cheeses available in PvP. Even masters players who have seen it before still can have probelms defending it because most have not seen this exact variation (with the fast zealot rallied to their mineral line) and they need to be worrying about several things at once so there's a higher chance for them to mess up.
To counter it you pretty much need to cut probes asap, chrono your wg as much as possible and get 4 gates of your own, your first warp in will be later but you will have an extra stalker or 2 and if you can stall with good probe+unit micro for a little bit then your next few warpins should put you ahead.
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Platinum Player
1.What do I do when I push out and he has some zerglings waiting to enter my base? Should I clean that up and wait to push out? or should I push out and use my warp in to clean up the zerglings attacking my base?
2. When I am about to fight a terran i always put my zealots ahead, then my sentry behind the zealots, and my stalkers/colossus behind the sentry. I have charge on my zealots and when I engage they go to far ahead of my army and my forcefield can not reach the terran army(terran begins to stim and push back). I was wondering should i put the sentry next to the zealots when engaging?
3.When I scout two gases around the time there should be only one(1 gate-1cybercore(not finished)) should i immediately build a robo for ob? I faced some opponents who go in to mass void rays. What is my response to early gas?
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United States8476 Posts
On February 02 2012 08:24 SilentVico wrote:
Platinum Player
1.What do I do when I push out and he has some zerglings waiting to enter my base? Should I clean that up and wait to push out? or should I push out and use my warp in to clean up the zerglings attacking my base?
2. When I am about to fight a terran i always put my zealots ahead, then my sentry behind the zealots, and my stalkers/colossus behind the sentry. I have charge on my zealots and when I engage they go to far ahead of my army and my forcefield can not reach the terran army(terran begins to stim and push back). I was wondering should i put the sentry next to the zealots when engaging?
3.When I scout two gases around the time there should be only one(1 gate-1cybercore(not finished)) should i immediately build a robo for ob? I faced some opponents who go in to mass void rays. What is my response to early gas?
1. Really depends on the situation. Ideally, you want to sim city your natural so that 1 zealot can block it.
2. Just ball them up, or better yet form a concave before engaging.
3. Again, you have to be more clear. What's his exact gas timing in relation to the cyber core? Depending on the exact gas timings, you can either 4 gate him or he could be just playing a standard game.
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What is the correct way to react to 10-11 pool when FFE? i never know whether to complete wall before nexus on maps like shakuras, taldarim, or build nexus at normal time, then complete wall at all cost, or even abandon forge like at 6pool?
And what to do on maps where complete wall isnt possible(metal, shattered)?
The zerg always gets some lings inside my base and make my day miserable, or if i overreact and build pylon+cannon in mineral line, i am just so much behind.
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Hey guys Diamond toss here having trouble with late game PvP. I'm not always exactly sure what composition to build. Take this replay for instance. My opponent gets carriers and cool shit like that. Help is greatly appreciated.
Replay here.
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On February 02 2012 08:46 Eladen wrote:
What is the correct way to react to 10-11 pool when FFE? i never know whether to complete wall before nexus on maps like shakuras, taldarim, or build nexus at normal time, then complete wall at all cost, or even abandon forge like at 6pool?
And what to do on maps where complete wall isnt possible(metal, shattered)?
The zerg always gets some lings inside my base and make my day miserable, or if i overreact and build pylon+cannon in mineral line, i am just so much behind.
You should be building your FFE so that you can ALWAYS complete the wall. One way of completing the wall is to do a three-Pylon block at the bottom of the ramp like you would if you were Cannon rushing a 15Hatch right as his Zerglings are coming in, and cancel once they're dead. If for some reason it's completely impossible, pull Probes and have them block off the entrance to your base. There are other ways of doing this on maps with the Supply Depot at the bottom of the ramp that involve bigger buildings. Pretty much, open up a custom game and start experimenting with building placements. It varies from map to map, but you can always block off before the Zerg can get in.
Oh, and it's usually a good idea to Probe->Pylon block their natural, to force them to decide whether they want to make something happen with their Zerglings or get their expansion down safely. If the former, you can finish the walloff and be on an excellent economic footing versus them. If the latter, the 10pool loses all of its strength and you won't have to cut Probes or cancel buildings.
This is just from my experience, though. NA Masters, so not the highest level.
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EPT
