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One of the guys at the PvT Training Day event I did a few weeks ago did this to me and it just wrecked me. Even if you know how to respond it takes a bit of practice.
You can hold it with three gates, but it's easier with four. I like to get four against a gasless expand on maps on which the natural can be harassed with Stalkers (so not Shakuras), because then you have a payoff from the extra units even if you don't have to defend anything. You basically can just leave your first couple of Stalkers hanging out in front of his exit, and if you see him leave with a bunch of Marines, make another batch of Stalkers and kite him all across the map. The next batch of units should be Zealots and enough Sentries that you have enough force fields to trap him on your ramp.
If your micro is good, you can hold the attack without actually taking any losses except maybe a Zealot or two, at which point you're pretty far ahead.
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On January 26 2012 19:47 mizU wrote:I lost to this baneling bust build at a LAN I went to recently... It's a really strong build... http://drop.sc/98412/dI scouted the slings and should have known he was bane busting with my pylon being taken down so late... but he did it successfully to the next 2 Toss players. If he's smart with his slings I don't see how this can really be scouted... If a player gets speed fast, I don't like sending out my zealot since... it won't get any information really. If a player gets early speed should I just assume cheese?
Can't watch the replay atm. but yessss baneling busts are extremely strong ZvP. At IEM Kiev about a third of the ZvP games where the Protoss player went FFE ended up in baneling busts (from Targa and Zenio especially), and I didn't see the Protoss player hold it off once. Lings are just too damn good at denying scouts.
The key to holding it is to get sentries, but getting sentries means that you can't get an early enough stargate to hold heavy roach aggression. In some games I've managed to roam around with a probe or a zealot and see the banelings morph, but at this point it is often already too late.
Alej mentioned on the last page that it the initial scouting probe is really important. If you can check his gas to see if he mines more than 100 it can indicate cheese incoming. It can also indicate a sloppy player, or someone fake mining gas until the probe is dead... there are so many ways for Zerg to mess with the Protoss after FFe, and I think once Zergs start to abuse this they will get into the mid/lategame with a huge advantage.
If you see ~10 speedlings you are forced to make cannons, but there doesn't really have to be an all-in coming from the Zerg. Zenio made a lot of speedlings in many games where he just continued to take his third, or tech to lair (hydra -> muta mindfuck build). Just by showing 10 speedlings the Zerg has already done huge damage to the Protoss FFE, forcing cannons and probe cuts.
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On January 26 2012 21:16 Xanatoss wrote:
Re-mentioning my Question because it has not been answered yet :<
Greetings! Recently I am reexploring the PvT-Matchup and so far I have huge Problems against Gasless FE into ~15 Marine-Push. Looking for some kind of Guideline against this off a kcdc 1 Gate FE or 20 Food FE (Markwerfs version with 1 Probe in Gas until Nexus).
My Questions are especially:
When is the point I can switch into Zealot-Sentry instead more Stalkers and how many Gates do I have to get initially to fend this off (would like to transition into Phoenixes asap to substitute as many stalkers as possible).
References to Replays or VOD's are sufficient, I am willing to figure it out myself if needed.
Thanks alot in advance 8]
Macroing off 3gates, any units composition is okay. If you lose anything early or just feel like you don't have the right composition to fight the marines cost effectively, abandon your natural briefly. Marines without stim cannot take it down quickly. Make sure you do not get supply blocked by losing a pylon, warp in a round or two of units then go kill all of his marines. If take them out losing very little you're not behind from the lost mining time.
Not having an army to fight them at that time normally means you're teching quite fast, or lost units early. Otherwise, just micro stalkers with a zealots to help tank and the marines should be no problem.
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
I recently ran into several terrans who went with a cloaked banshee opening into mass thor+repairing scvs, banshee, raven and marines. What is the proper unit composition against that? I had colossi, 3 HTs zealots and stalker and got totally wrecked.
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On January 26 2012 22:04 ShiaoPi wrote:
I recently ran into several terrans who went with a cloaked banshee opening into mass thor+repairing scvs, banshee, raven and marines. What is the proper unit composition against that? I had colossi, 3 HTs zealots and stalker and got totally wrecked.
Ideally you'll want the High Templar for feedback, how you prioritize the units that get them though, should be based on your other available units. Immortals are optimal for the Thors, but I have had decent success with Zealots, too, however, it's largely based on how decent of a surround you can get before the SCVS start repairing. If they are pulling a ton of SCVs, it might be wise to build a couple of cannons so that you can detect the banshee's, as a smart player will scan and kill your observers immediately.
I've seen this pop up in the KSL a lot lately too, and that's where I am basing the answer I've given you off of. SuperNova did it a lot, especially to FXOz IIRC. Z had 4 immortals, a bunch of zealots, and 3-4 templar. He met them in the middle of the map every time and crushed it hard.
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United Kingdom23 Posts
Whats the best way to combat PvT, when the Terran goes marine/marauder/medivac/viking/ghost.
I go zealot/stalker/colosus/HT and always get poo'd on :S
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On January 26 2012 22:23 Nosk_SC2 wrote:
Whats the best way to combat PvT, when the Terran goes marine/marauder/medivac/viking/ghost.
I go zealot/stalker/colosus/HT and always get poo'd on :S
In a perfect world, this should be sufficient. Are you microing / positioning well? As long as you have enough Zealots to get killed while your Collosus and Templar kill the bio and you have your stalkers focus on taking out the vikings, you should be alright.
Oh man, I ran into this yesterday as well. I didn't have a clue how to attack into it. Each time I managed to destroy the ground force, Banshees would clean-up my attack because my Observer(s) would get sniped at some point during the battle. I didn't have HT so I couldn't feedback the Thors, but the Thors weren't the problem.
The most annoying thing about that game was that the opening looked just like a 111 all-in. Since the best way to deal with a 111 is to cut probes and build up a big army, I ended up way behind on economy by the 10 minute mark and basically had to go for an attack.
Terrans say that Mech doesn't work in PvT, but Thor/Cloakshee/Raven/Marine/SCV is a really powerful combination. So much synergy
I agree with you entirely on that,. I've never seen this build done as a one base, but as a two base all-in. The toughest part is definitely securing an observer to allow the Banshee's to be cleaned up. For this reason, when I do hit the build, I choose to use my Feedbacks on the Banshee's over the Thor. With my standard PvT opener, I will have a robo and at least 3 gateways by the time my observer hits their base. Assuming that I can read the push correctly, which is usually pretty obvious given that Thors aren't often made otherwise and you'll have already experienced Banshee harass, I will immediately start teching towards HT.
Chrono goes towards the robo to make Immortals. Target the Immortals on the Thors and let your Zealots take out the scvs, with the templar feedbacking the banshees. Once the threat of cloak is removed, the push becomes a lot less terrifying. If they have a Raven, try to bait PDD and retreat. If you find that you are having trouble with losing your observer, make one or two cannons wherever you anticipate an engagement. They go quite a long way and also will free up your Robo to continue making Immortals.
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Hi guys. I'm recently thinking of starting to play SC2 again but as protoss this time. I quit as a Terran in Master league but I'm very interested in high-aggression protoss play. Basically HuK style I guess, relying on Micro and strong 2 base plays which will net me a win as long as I micro well (I LOVE MICROING).
Could anyone please PM me some Blink-stalker all-ins/semi-all ins. Maybe some Warp-prism together with Blink stalker play?
inb4 "omg cheese noob" well I see it as high aggression, I've played both Zerg and Terran and I made this rule to myself that I would always play macro game, well, I've gotten tired of that.
Would apprecciate some help!
EDIT: Any Blink-stalker centric play in general interests me :D.
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On January 26 2012 16:06 KimJongChill wrote:
Hi all, I'm new to toss and PvP makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I've been doing some weird 3 stalker rush build that I sorta copied from watching someone else, but I'm wondering whether there's any one 'standard' or safe way that I can play PvP so that I can start to learn about the match-up more.
I'd say that this is the standard. Anything else is reactionary and you can decently counter every other build.
PvP is much easier to understand if you know the timings of the first 4 units which is very vital. Just by little delays of units or too much units at X time you can get basic understanding of your opponent's BO. Also always take in account your opponent's nexus energy. Too much saved energy can always mean a 4gate.
P.S I noticed a lot of people doing this: they steal your 2nd gas and 4gate you. I don't understand why do they do this? You can be very safe by taking the delayed gas and making a Robo and asap Immortal. Just don't make their mistake
Now my very noobish question that's bugging me nowdays.
I always wonder how much warpgates and tech buildings can I support on 1/2bases and X numbers of assimilators. Can someone explain me please cause it hurts a lot my lategame when I make some absurd number of buildings that I can't support atm.
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On January 26 2012 23:30 sereniity wrote:
Hi guys. I'm recently thinking of starting to play SC2 again but as protoss this time. I quit as a Terran in Master league but I'm very interested in high-aggression protoss play. Basically HuK style I guess, relying on Micro and strong 2 base plays which will net me a win as long as I micro well (I LOVE MICROING).
Could anyone please PM me some Blink-stalker all-ins/semi-all ins. Maybe some Warp-prism together with Blink stalker play?
inb4 "omg cheese noob" well I see it as high aggression, I've played both Zerg and Terran and I made this rule to myself that I would always play macro game, well, I've gotten tired of that.
Would apprecciate some help!
EDIT: Any Blink-stalker centric play in general interests me :D.
PvP: 3gate blink obs, 4gate blink
PvZ: +2 7gate blink from a forge FE
PvT: Uuh... same as PvP? I don't think blink is optimal in this matchup. Warp prisms, and immortals can make for nice simultaneous attacks though. Drop zealots in the main and bust his bunkers with immortal sentry stalker. This usually comes from a 3gate robo build on one base or 5-6gate robo on two.
You can also be aggressive without going all in. For example PvT 1gate FE into 4gate, or PvZ forge FE into +1 gate with tech.
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Hey guys, in PvP is it better to go double forge after taking the nat and going collosus, or is one forge + more collosus better? Im talking about a situation where we are both on 2 base and getting collosus.
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On January 28 2012 05:16 Skygrinder wrote:
Hey guys, in PvP is it better to go double forge after taking the nat and going collosus, or is one forge + more collosus better? Im talking about a situation where we are both on 2 base and getting collosus.
I only get to double forge after my third. The rest of your money should be going into archons, colossi.
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On January 28 2012 05:27 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:16 Skygrinder wrote:
Hey guys, in PvP is it better to go double forge after taking the nat and going collosus, or is one forge + more collosus better? Im talking about a situation where we are both on 2 base and getting collosus. I only get to double forge after my third. The rest of your money should be going into archons, colossi.
Usually, if you're going for colossi, you'll want to prioritize weapon upgrades over anything else because attack scales much better with colossi than armor does, so until later in the game or until your twilight finishes and you do +1 armor in the meantime, there's no need to go double forge. That gas is better spent on colossi and range.
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Hello TL!
I started playing during early beta and got to gold league playing Protoss and Zerg, I played random for about a month after release but got so sick of the PvP matchup I switched to full time Zerg. I soon after took a long time break from SC2 and now haven't played it since a couple of months after release.
I've now decided to start my SC2 again and since the PvP matchup apparently have changed from the 4 gate madness it was I decided to go back to only Toss. I'm looking for tips so that I can get into the game again. Anything I should focus on?
Thanks.
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HI Naone,
I'm a masters protoss on NA server.
Unfortunately, PvP in the lower leagues still and may always revolve around '4 gate madness.' This is due to the fact that players in the lower leagues (Diamonds and below) are unable to stop a properly executed 4gate even if they know it is coming.
As for things to focus on..since you are below platinum/diamond you should focus on working on your macro.
Keep producing probes, use those chronoboosts, try not to get supply blocked, making sufficient amount of producers (gateways/robotics/stargates), expanding, etc.
The fastest way to improve is to play one strategy and have it perfected, similar to why you should stick to 1 race to have the fastest improvement rate. This "one" strategy would be the standard strategies that you may find all over TL.
After you improve these areas you should be in diamond no problem 
Hope this helps!
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Plat Toss here.
My weakest match up by far is PvP, but I'm beginning to think I'm just losing due to pure build order losses.
I really like robo builds which give high amounts of immortals and I usually like to push when i have 4-5 immortals (about the timing colosus timings start) and I would like to know which build i should use.
Right now, I'm going 2 gate robo with double gas but I feel it gives me wayy too much gas to be making immortals.
My question is what build should I go which involves the robo so that I can make a quick observer then chrono pump immortals into a timing attack. I like my composition to have a few sentries (1-4) and a half-half stalkers/zealots composition.
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Is 15 Nexus the best possible openning vs the 1-1-1 all in?
Would it be a bad idea for terran to do 1-1-1 all in vs 15 nexus?
Also, 1 gate FE can struggle vs 7 minute marine tank push... off of a 15 nexus, you get warp gate at exactly 7 minutes if you rush it out, so can 15 nexus combat the marine tank well?
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Hello guys I have a more of mechanics question...
1) How do you select certain group of units (e.g You have 20 zealots , 10 stalkers , 3 colossus , and in UI i see Progamers click on zealots and then only zealots will be left in control group allowing them to be sent to deal with drops...) How they do it?
2) I have a problem when I have templar/sentry on 1 key... so I use 2,3,4 as my army hotkeys... and I have everything on 2 ... but If i do that then it will have only templar spells... then I press tab, so now i can use ff, then i train probes come back to my army and i still have templars... How do i "save" what spellcaster i want to have when I press 2?
3)also what is the most easy or popular way to hold 1/1/1. The way I do it is shit ton of chargelots with flanks and stalkers and immortals...
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On January 29 2012 18:21 Corsica wrote:
Hello guys I have a more of mechanics question...
1) How do you select certain group of units (e.g You have 20 zealots , 10 stalkers , 3 colossus , and in UI i see Progamers click on zealots and then only zealots will be left in control group allowing them to be sent to deal with drops...) How they do it?
2) I have a problem when I have templar/sentry on 1 key... so I use 2,3,4 as my army hotkeys... and I have everything on 2 ... but If i do that then it will have only templar spells... then I press tab, so now i can use ff, then i train probes come back to my army and i still have templars... How do i "save" what spellcaster i want to have when I press 2?
3)also what is the most easy or popular way to hold 1/1/1. The way I do it is shit ton of chargelots with flanks and stalkers and immortals...
1) You can ctrl+click the zealots on the screen or their wire frame to select only units of 1 type.
2) You can't save which unit appears "first" on the command card. There's some weird prioritization that goes on when you have a mass of different units selected, and I just know that templar take priority over other spellcasters (in this case, sentries.)
3) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379
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EPT
