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On January 26 2012 16:00 kl3zero wrote:
I am a top plat toss with a PvZ question.
Lately all i have been losing to is a 2 base all-in (i say all in because the stop droning and do not take a 3rd)
with just mass roaches followed up by lings if needed.
This is usually on maps like shattered metal after i ffe. I try to go 6/7 gate but it seems like as soon as i get to their base they are also moving out (usually meet mid map) with a much bigger attack than my own leading me to lose my army and then the game short after.
I always send at least 1-2 zealots to scout for a 3rd. is the correct response to no 3rd sit back and get a robo?
I also feel if i ffe on these maps i provoke a roach rush, however i feel as though if i gateway expand i am also always behind. Do not have a replay atm not on my main computer. Any general tips will be much appreciated.
when does it come? roach ling timing at ~34 drones is held off of GW expand builds with a cannon (or two; only do this if you get hallu and can see it coming). your simcity has to be good and you have to be proficient in your ffs. if it comes earlier vs your ffe you need to be more proactive in scouting and get 2-3 additional cannons and get a stalker out asap to micro so they can't get free shots off on your nexus.
when i say be more proactive in scouting i mean you need to send the probe that made your 1st cannon to hide and use either this probe or your scouting probe (which you should save) to check his gas. click the geyser. try to spot the roach warren or baneling nest. if it's baneling, on the other hand, you want to wall off your nat's probe line with a gate, even if it blocks efficient mining for the time being. when it's coming, rally both nexi to main and sit pretty with your cannons + stalker. gg
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when does it come? roach ling timing at ~34 drones is held off of GW expand builds with a cannon (or two; only do this if you get hallu and can see it coming). your simcity has to be good and you have to be proficient in your ffs. if it comes earlier vs your ffe you need to be more proactive in scouting and get 2-3 additional cannons and get a stalker out asap to micro so they can't get free shots off on your nexus.
when i say be more proactive in scouting i mean you need to send the probe that made your 1st cannon to hide and use either this probe or your scouting probe (which you should save) to check his gas. click the geyser. try to spot the roach warren or baneling nest. if it's baneling, on the other hand, you want to wall off your nat's probe line with a gate, even if it blocks efficient mining for the time being. when it's coming, rally both nexi to main and sit pretty with your cannons + stalker. gg
I usually do hold an earlier roach rush but this one seems a lot later like ~8-9 minutes but way many more roaches. If i see it coming i try to get some immortals as well as add extra cannons but when there are like 20+ roaches i feel as though even 4 or more cannons do not do anything against them.
Also i am trying to stick to FFE as i like the style better but am unsure what a good follow up would be to practice with. I like the 7 gate follow up as it is quite adaptable and applies pressure but maybe a 4 gate poke is better? I am not to sure on this either. I almost feel reliant of dt's to come back in the game which i hate that feeling. Another note is i usually have this trouble on maps like shattered, especially shattered way more than on shakuras .
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Is there any way that toss can get a quick 3rd base versus zerg that is reasonably safe? I want to say of course no, since sitting on two base safely has its own advantages, but I want to be able to switch my game up a little bit if needed.
EDIT - After FFE specifically on 3rd friendly maps. Any sentry build that could force a 3rd down their throats as well?
PLEASE SAY YES T_T
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On January 26 2012 16:26 SwizzY wrote:
Is there any way that toss can get a quick 3rd base versus zerg that is reasonably safe? I want to say of course no, since sitting on two base safely has its own advantages, but I want to be able to switch my game up a little bit if needed.
EDIT - After FFE specifically on 3rd friendly maps. Any sentry build that could force a 3rd down their throats as well?
PLEASE SAY YES T_T
On a map like Cloud Kingdom?
So easy to take a fast third.
Instead of taking a regular third I've been taking ninja thirds on maps like Antiga, and making the Zerg feel safer to drone up, then hit with a huge army off 3 bases.
You more or less have to wait until you have sufficient units, or you know exactly what the zerg is doing because if they have burrow or even sufficient flanking it's a lot harder to take a fast third.
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On January 26 2012 16:06 KimJongChill wrote:
Hi all, I'm new to toss and PvP makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I've been doing some weird 3 stalker rush build that I sorta copied from watching someone else, but I'm wondering whether there's any one 'standard' or safe way that I can play PvP so that I can start to learn about the match-up more.
3 stalker rush into twilight robo blink+obs is the most flexible and adaptable build, but the skill requirement is relatively higher than phoenix timing attacks, archon chargelot, or basic colossus play. DT-> Chargelot archon is relatively easy to play, safe, and will do well against almost all other builds. It has a few glaring weaknesses, but for the most part those weaknesses don't get exploited most of the time. CecilSunkure wrote a guide to it.
3 stalker rush might take a bit of practice, but you should come out ahead against 4 gate the vast majority of the time.
On January 26 2012 16:26 SwizzY wrote:
Is there any way that toss can get a quick 3rd base versus zerg that is reasonably safe? I want to say of course no, since sitting on two base safely has its own advantages, but I want to be able to switch my game up a little bit if needed.
EDIT - After FFE specifically on 3rd friendly maps. Any sentry build that could force a 3rd down their throats as well?
PLEASE SAY YES T_T
I'm assuming a standard game where you FFE and zerg reacts with a fast third taken around 5:00 to 6:00. It's definitely possible on some maps with highly accessible thirds (see Losira vs Brown on Daybreak + the accompanying thread), but its likely to put you in some needlessly tricky situations and it's probably bad to do it as a standard play. Assuming a "standard" game where you ffed and then did a 4wg pressure on his third while building twilight+robo (with or without vr support), the standard zerg play after your attack has been fully deflected is to get mutas off 6 gas and try to gain map control. Taking a fast third here is doable, but realize you're essentially condemning yourself to a 3 base turtle to 200/200 where you frantically defend against mutas. The much safer route is to gear up for a possible 2 base timing attack of some sort and take a third+ get colossi or storm if he doesn't follow up with mutas or go through with the timing push if he does follow up with mutas.
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how many probes should I go to in each matchup? I just go 70, is that a decent number...or especially for PvP is that too high. Also do I effectively always want 3 saturated bases therefore take my 4th to coincide with main mining out, or do I want to be getting 4th a bit earlier for the extra gas?
also versus muta PvZ is probe count different to a ground zerg as getting contained on 3 bases makes extra probes worthless when your main dries up
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On January 26 2012 16:58 Drowsy wrote:
I'm assuming a standard game where you FFE and zerg reacts with a fast third taken around 5:00 to 6:00. It's definitely possible on some maps with highly accessible thirds (see Losira vs Brown on Daybreak + the accompanying thread), but its likely to put you in some needlessly tricky situations and it's probably bad to do it as a standard play. Assuming a "standard" game where you ffed and then did a 4wg pressure on his third while building twilight+robo (with or without vr support), the standard zerg play after your attack has been fully deflected is to get mutas off 6 gas and try to gain map control. Taking a fast third here is doable, but realize you're essentially condemning yourself to a 3 base turtle to 200/200 where you frantically defend against mutas. The much safer route is to gear up for a possible 2 base timing attack of some sort and take a third+ get colossi or storm if he doesn't follow up with mutas or go through with the timing push if he does follow up with mutas.
If I'm reading this right, are you basically suggesting that one should go for a 2-base all-in or force a base trade? Because if your 2 base timing attack fails to do much damage, and once he has a decent flock of mutas it will be very hard to get it up and also you will be significantly behind in econ. Can you clarify?
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On January 26 2012 17:16 ThePianoDentist wrote:
how many probes should I go to in each matchup? I just go 70, is that a decent number...or especially for PvP is that too high. Also do I effectively always want 3 saturated bases therefore take my 4th to coincide with main mining out, or do I want to be getting 4th a bit earlier for the extra gas?
In PvZ, PvT, I like around 80. Even up to 90 is usually fine if you're trading well.
PvP really depends. You generally don't go past 3 bases anyway, so maybe 70.
It really depends. If the Zerg you're playing countering a lot? Is the Terran you're playing dropping more?
I tend to spread my probes more and get faster bases if there's more dropping/pressure to sort of counteract the normal probe loss.
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On January 26 2012 17:16 ThePianoDentist wrote:
how many probes should I go to in each matchup? I just go 70, is that a decent number...or especially for PvP is that too high. Also do I effectively always want 3 saturated bases therefore take my 4th to coincide with main mining out, or do I want to be getting 4th a bit earlier for the extra gas?
in pvp its kind of rigid. expo before your opponent and don't know if he has expanded? 30 max until you can confirm an expansion. he expands before you and you expand reactively? you can start cbing probes somewhat to about 50-55. I don't think it's wise to go over 65 in pvp ever, as your 3rd will be late relative to other mu's and your main will be close to done by that time. even as the game goes on and you take a 4th 5th etc you need to be very supply efficient moving towards that lovely archon colo + mothership combo that melts anything and everything. zealots exist in these situations to temporarily deny mining at far away bases but you don't want them in really late game pvp battles as upgraded archons and colo negate them almost immediately
pvt- 1g fe vs somewhat ambiguous opener? upper 30s max until you know for sure it's an expand build. 1 base play? cap a little under 40 on 2 gases, sometimes 3 depending on what you're doing to hold it. bio expand you can probe up; cap out at about ~55 if you think he's producing pretty heavily on 2 bases. max here is 72 afterward, maybe a few more since bio drops kill them pretty darn quickly here and there
pvz off of an ffe depends if you plan on 2 basing. 2 basing between low 40s for really quick gw timings or up to 48-52 for more techy 2 base plays like 7g blink+obs with an upgrade or 2. max here would be your ideal 72-75 if you aren't going heavy on 2 bases
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thanks. if you are planning on maxing out in PvP and both you and your opponent are playing standoff-ish around what supply do you start stargate to get fleet beacon or start fleet beacon if you already opened pheonixes as motherships just take soo long to build!
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On January 26 2012 18:44 ThePianoDentist wrote:
thanks. if you are planning on maxing out in PvP and both you and your opponent are playing standoff-ish around what supply do you start stargate to get fleet beacon or start fleet beacon if you already opened pheonixes as motherships just take soo long to build!
it can be pretty dangerous to tech up to mship until you are maxed. your core units will be colo archon which are both very gas heavy. you also want colo range and upgrades along the way and you will almost always get charge in these situations, (blink also, but not necessarily if you both play relatively macro-oriented builds on safe maps such as 2g expo or 2g robo expo) as well as wp speed and maybe obs speed. that's a lot of gas! if you happen to spot an early mother ship tech, like you see 1sg started when you are both on 3-4 bases with standard comps, you have quite a lead until the mothership is out, as that's a lot of gas he has tied up. if you trade at that point, you can reinforce with more gassy units all else equal.
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On January 26 2012 19:15 Sated wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble defending FFE builds against aggressive 2base Roach busts. Scouting feels really random, because Speedlings will usually deny Probe scouting and even if you manage to see a Roach, you never really know if they're only getting a couple of Roaches to feel safe before droning up or if they're committing to Roach pressure. A good Zerg never lets you get into their natural mineral line to count Drones or to count the gas they're mining, so I really feel at a loss. It just leads to so many stupid losses against something that most people seem to think is easy to hold.
For the record, I play HerO's FFE, so I'm usually scouting for a fast third. If I don't see a fast third (6:00 minutes), should I just throw down a couple more cannons and then turtle until I know what is going on..? Or is there something more subtle I can look for?
When do you get your robo up? :o
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On January 26 2012 19:15 Sated wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble defending FFE builds against aggressive 2base Roach busts. Scouting feels really random, because Speedlings will usually deny Probe scouting and even if you manage to see a Roach, you never really know if they're only getting a couple of Roaches to feel safe before droning up or if they're committing to Roach pressure. A good Zerg never lets you get into their natural mineral line to count Drones or to count the gas they're mining, so I really feel at a loss. It just leads to so many stupid losses against something that most people seem to think is easy to hold.
For the record, I play HerO's FFE, so I'm usually scouting for a fast third. If I don't see a fast third (6:00 minutes), should I just throw down a couple more cannons and then turtle until I know what is going on..? Or is there something more subtle I can look for?
2 base is hard to read sometimes. i can almost always get adequate information with a probe scout, either drawing 1-2 lings with my initial scout allowing my 2nd probe on the map to get a peak at the nat saturation and a look at the main gases if you micro around the creep and the queen. you will also be able to see if the 2nd queen is marching her fat ass down. this will help you rule out those ~20 drone roach busts that take their nat but don't really use it at all, but not the ~34 drone variety. if he did any kind of pool-gas or pool-hatch gas build, doesn't take a 3rd, and you see a queen walking to the natural, this type of roach bust might be in the cards. however, off of an ffe you should be fine with just a cannon or 2 and your sentries--the same thing that holds it off with a gateway expansion. the only time i remember losing to this is when i canceled his 3rd twice with cannons and then sent my first 4 sentries in a wp into his base.. dono what i was thinking xD
2 probe scouts and the 2 cb 2 zealot poke--which i recommend every game, really--should be able to confirm/deny 3rd that goes down after the typical ~5 min timing, unless he has 8 or more slings.. which should tell you something anyway! if he is in fact doing a ~34 drone roach bust, his ling speed will finish as he is moving out because he is getting 8-9 roaches out all at the same time to finish with speed finishing shortly after as part of the build (the first 200 or so gas go to roaches and the next 100 go to ling speed), so either you will see the roaches or an awkwardly timed ling speed upgrade combined with a surge of 12+ lings with your zealots.
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I lost to this baneling bust build at a LAN I went to recently...
It's a really strong build...
http://drop.sc/98412/d
I scouted the slings and should have known he was bane busting with my pylon being taken down so late...
but he did it successfully to the next 2 Toss players.
If he's smart with his slings I don't see how this can really be scouted...
If a player gets speed fast, I don't like sending out my zealot since... it won't get any information really.
If a player gets early speed should I just assume cheese?
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2012 19:54 Sated wrote:On January 26 2012 19:23 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 19:15 Sated wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble defending FFE builds against aggressive 2base Roach busts. Scouting feels really random, because Speedlings will usually deny Probe scouting and even if you manage to see a Roach, you never really know if they're only getting a couple of Roaches to feel safe before droning up or if they're committing to Roach pressure. A good Zerg never lets you get into their natural mineral line to count Drones or to count the gas they're mining, so I really feel at a loss. It just leads to so many stupid losses against something that most people seem to think is easy to hold.
For the record, I play HerO's FFE, so I'm usually scouting for a fast third. If I don't see a fast third (6:00 minutes), should I just throw down a couple more cannons and then turtle until I know what is going on..? Or is there something more subtle I can look for? When do you get your robo up? :o I get it when I get my 3 additional Gateways, which are lined up with Warpgate research. Those 3 Gateways and the Robo finish around the same time a Roach bust does, so I don't really have any time to get out Immortals (if that's what you're thinking). On January 26 2012 19:32 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2012 19:15 Sated wrote:
I'm having a lot of trouble defending FFE builds against aggressive 2base Roach busts. Scouting feels really random, because Speedlings will usually deny Probe scouting and even if you manage to see a Roach, you never really know if they're only getting a couple of Roaches to feel safe before droning up or if they're committing to Roach pressure. A good Zerg never lets you get into their natural mineral line to count Drones or to count the gas they're mining, so I really feel at a loss. It just leads to so many stupid losses against something that most people seem to think is easy to hold.
For the record, I play HerO's FFE, so I'm usually scouting for a fast third. If I don't see a fast third (6:00 minutes), should I just throw down a couple more cannons and then turtle until I know what is going on..? Or is there something more subtle I can look for? 2 base is hard to read sometimes. i can almost always get adequate information with a probe scout, either drawing 1-2 lings with my initial scout allowing my 2nd probe on the map to get a peak at the nat saturation and a look at the main gases if you micro around the creep and the queen. you will also be able to see if the 2nd queen is marching her fat ass down. this will help you rule out those ~20 drone roach busts that take their nat but don't really use it at all, but not the ~34 drone variety. if he did any kind of pool-gas or pool-hatch gas build, doesn't take a 3rd, and you see a queen walking to the natural, this type of roach bust might be in the cards. however, off of an ffe you should be fine with just a cannon or 2 and your sentries--the same thing that holds it off with a gateway expansion. the only time i remember losing to this is when i canceled his 3rd twice with cannons and then sent my first 4 sentries in a wp into his base.. dono what i was thinking xD 2 probe scouts and the 2 cb 2 zealot poke--which i recommend every game, really--should be able to confirm/deny 3rd that goes down after the typical ~5 min timing, unless he has 8 or more slings.. which should tell you something anyway! if he is in fact doing a ~34 drone roach bust, his ling speed will finish as he is moving out because he is getting 8-9 roaches out all at the same time to finish with speed finishing shortly after as part of the build (the first 200 or so gas go to roaches and the next 100 go to ling speed), so either you will see the roaches or an awkwardly timed ling speed upgrade combined with a surge of 12+ lings with your zealots. I should really start doing the Zealot poke. I don't normally do that. Sneaking in two Probes at the same time seems like a good idea, also. I guess if he already has a load of Zerglings by the time I'm trying to sneak in those Probes, I should be expecting something a little weird - no reason to get that many Zerglings early on if you're playing a standard, macro-Zerg style. Thanks 
np dood!
1. watch hero
2. suddenly understand everything pvz
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Re-mentioning my Question because it has not been answered yet :<
Greetings! Recently I am reexploring the PvT-Matchup and so far I have huge Problems against Gasless FE into ~15 Marine-Push. Looking for some kind of Guideline against this off a kcdc 1 Gate FE or 20 Food FE (Markwerfs version with 1 Probe in Gas until Nexus).
My Questions are especially:
When is the point I can switch into Zealot-Sentry instead more Stalkers and how many Gates do I have to get initially to fend this off (would like to transition into Phoenixes asap to substitute as many stalkers as possible).
References to Replays or VOD's are sufficient, I am willing to figure it out myself if needed.
Thanks alot in advance 8]
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EPT
