EPTTnx in advance for the help!
The Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 175
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
Tnx in advance for the help! | ||
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Lafer
United States114 Posts
So I will scout the zerg and see a roach warren and a hydralisk den, and I know that I want to go colossus. I get some colossus out, and I try to move out around the 12-15 minute mark to try to do some damage. I have observers looking at his army, so I think I know where he is. I will start a fight, and in the middle of it, a huge number of units comes out from him and joins the fight, and I lose the fight, as well as the game. It might be that I am just getting "unlucky" in the times that I engage the fight, because I have an obs at his base and with his army. When I start the fight, I only see his army, nothing more. Please note that I am not maxed, either. I am simply trying to take out a base if I can. I have lost COUNTLESS games in this fashion. Every time I try to move out to try to take out a base, or to poke at one, I lost it to a surround. I'm talking 2-3 colossus with many supporting units. I start the fight favorably, and get blindsided by a huge number of reinforcements. I have tried DT's, but that never works because they always have a spore and spines at their bases, each and every one of them. I watch replays and even in games that I am not going air or going DT's, and they scout that I am not, they still have a spore and spines at each base. Am I just supposed to sit and macro up to 200/200 and then move out? That feels... wrong to me... I feel like I should be doing something to set them back, but I fail every time. Any tips? Sorry for the long post, just a bit frustrated atm. Thanks! | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On February 02 2012 16:27 Lafer wrote: So I am having a really hard time against Zerg, and I wanted to know when is the best time to "move out" or to try to put on pressure, as well as the best way to put this pressure on. I am in Platinum. So I will scout the zerg and see a roach warren and a hydralisk den, and I know that I want to go colossus. I get some colossus out, and I try to move out around the 12-15 minute mark to try to do some damage. I have observers looking at his army, so I think I know where he is. I will start a fight, and in the middle of it, a huge number of units comes out from him and joins the fight, and I lose the fight, as well as the game. It might be that I am just getting "unlucky" in the times that I engage the fight, because I have an obs at his base and with his army. When I start the fight, I only see his army, nothing more. Please note that I am not maxed, either. I am simply trying to take out a base if I can. I have lost COUNTLESS games in this fashion. Every time I try to move out to try to take out a base, or to poke at one, I lost it to a surround. I'm talking 2-3 colossus with many supporting units. I start the fight favorably, and get blindsided by a huge number of reinforcements. I have tried DT's, but that never works because they always have a spore and spines at their bases, each and every one of them. I watch replays and even in games that I am not going air or going DT's, and they scout that I am not, they still have a spore and spines at each base. Am I just supposed to sit and macro up to 200/200 and then move out? That feels... wrong to me... I feel like I should be doing something to set them back, but I fail every time. Any tips? Sorry for the long post, just a bit frustrated atm. Thanks! First of when you push out, you dont need to fully commit to aggression to do some damage, you can just poke and kill some creep tumors and stay on nice position on some narrow area for example on shakuras plateu the narrow choke points next to xel naga towers, if zerg engages on postions like those you just can forcefield him nicely and do lots of damage to his army, if you can see that you can engage zergs army on open area dont do it, just pull back and expand, zerg is blind anyway as you killed his creep tumors. Day9 had just nice daily about PvZ where he talks about decision making and aggression http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-407-p1-grubby-vs-sheth-pvz-decision-making-5911842 This is all what I can say with out replay | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On February 02 2012 17:07 Daimai wrote: Hi. How the hell do i engage vs terran mid and lategame? Their MMM runs away so my colo cant hit, then they kill all zealots with mmm and trade vikings for colo. Then they win. Dont understand how im suposed to engage terrn. Good forcefields, if Terran have lots of vikings and very good viking production (2 starports) tech to High Templars and keep tech switching after every engagement, so Terran needs to always make vikings after the battle even with out knowing are you going for High Templars or Colossus. | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
On February 02 2012 12:07 AfricanPsycho wrote: Hi guys I have a question about the new "air terran" and "thor banshee" builds becoming more common is PvT. Is it viable to go mass air (mostly voids) vs these builds after scouting them vs with obs? Im thinking spread voidrays will do good vs thor and banshee Im just worried about that smattering of marines they though in? I havn't personally tried this due to the rarity of these builds atm, I was just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or experience using air toss vs these builds. Tnx in advance for the help! VR's are good, just don't transition too fast (don't build too many stargates). They counter thors if you don't clump them, counter banshees and are not affected by PDD which is often a possibility with this terran build. Also you need aoe support in form of Colossi or HT's if T doesn't push from 1 base. Also blink stalkers are good to have in your composition vs it. On February 02 2012 17:07 Daimai wrote: Hi. How the hell do i engage vs terran mid and lategame? Their MMM runs away so my colo cant hit, then they kill all zealots with mmm and trade vikings for colo. Then they win. Dont understand how im suposed to engage terrn. You can wait for them to attack into your army, always have guardian shield, micro zealots back after charge if your colossi aren't in range, blink under vikings and focus fire them, flank with zealots warped from proxy pylon and prevent kiting with forcefields. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Makuly
Taiwan54 Posts
On February 02 2012 16:27 Lafer wrote: So I am having a really hard time against Zerg, and I wanted to know when is the best time to "move out" or to try to put on pressure, as well as the best way to put this pressure on. I am in Platinum. So I will scout the zerg and see a roach warren and a hydralisk den, and I know that I want to go colossus. I get some colossus out, and I try to move out around the 12-15 minute mark to try to do some damage. I have observers looking at his army, so I think I know where he is. I will start a fight, and in the middle of it, a huge number of units comes out from him and joins the fight, and I lose the fight, as well as the game. It might be that I am just getting "unlucky" in the times that I engage the fight, because I have an obs at his base and with his army. When I start the fight, I only see his army, nothing more. Please note that I am not maxed, either. I am simply trying to take out a base if I can. I have lost COUNTLESS games in this fashion. Every time I try to move out to try to take out a base, or to poke at one, I lost it to a surround. I'm talking 2-3 colossus with many supporting units. I start the fight favorably, and get blindsided by a huge number of reinforcements. I have tried DT's, but that never works because they always have a spore and spines at their bases, each and every one of them. I watch replays and even in games that I am not going air or going DT's, and they scout that I am not, they still have a spore and spines at each base. Am I just supposed to sit and macro up to 200/200 and then move out? That feels... wrong to me... I feel like I should be doing something to set them back, but I fail every time. Any tips? Sorry for the long post, just a bit frustrated atm. Thanks! Hi! NA masters protoss here The best time to 'move out' is only in early and mid game! This is because after mid game the zerg can have +50 supply ahead of you due to their macro, so you HAVE to turtle to 200/200 with upgrades unfortunately! Here I listed 4 types of 'timing attacks', which is something you are probably aiming for: 1. 5/6 gate attack - 6-7 mins 2. 6-7gate +2 blink stalker - 10 mins 3. 4gate+2 colosus push- 11 mins 4. 2 immortal +gateway unit push - 8-9 mins Some engagement tips: -Having high sentry count- narrow engagement points/ split their army in half -Walk along the terrain of the map as to not get surrounded completely Importance of using warp prisms: -Stalling time for taking a 3rd -Catching up when behind, sniping hatcheries, killing drones, etc -Forcing the zerg to multi task- many aren't used to it and will die instantly if you attack with main army + drop zlots/dts in their main simultaneously Hope this helps! | ||
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Makuly
Taiwan54 Posts
On February 02 2012 17:07 Daimai wrote: Hi. How the hell do i engage vs terran mid and lategame? Their MMM runs away so my colo cant hit, then they kill all zealots with mmm and trade vikings for colo. Then they win. Dont understand how im suposed to engage terrn. Hi! First to deal with kiting, as many people have also posted, is having charge lots + good force field caging. It's also recommended to have your stalkers grouped seperately from the main army so you can bait + snipe the vikings if they are out of position. Generally you don't want to make more than 3-4 colossus in the beginning, as they are easily taken out by vikings. Late game: -ALWAYS engage near a pylon! This is because you can warp in reinforcements IMMEDIATELY and easily win battles, while their reinforcement takes ages to come! Then when you inevitably when the battle, chase down his fleeing units with blink stalkers- this is EXTREMELY helpful as usually their medivacs are still intact -You want to have high gateway counts (~10 gates for 2 base, 13-14 for 3 base) and 2-3 robotics for tech switches between archons/templar and colossus. -Templar/colossus combination is INCREDIBLY hard for terran to deal with, always aim for this ! Hope this helps! | ||
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whistle
United States141 Posts
On February 02 2012 17:07 Daimai wrote: Hi. How the hell do i engage vs terran mid and lategame? Their MMM runs away so my colo cant hit, then they kill all zealots with mmm and trade vikings for colo. Then they win. Dont understand how im suposed to engage terrn. Considering you're ~high master I'm assuming you don't mess up any basic engagement rules. I've been struggling with this as well - and to top it off, you see pro players totally botch this on stream ALL THE TIME. I think the main issue is positioning. The other part is that once you get to 3-4 colossus, if you don't have templar tech incoming, you're putting yourself at risk of losing to a terran who gets 15 vikings, sacrifices them to kill your colossus, then stim plows through your remaining gateway army and expansions. So start templar tech before the engagement, or distract him with harass to give you time to do so. Battle positioning is something I don't think even many lower level pro players do well consistently. Of course you have your standard split the army, lining up colossus/stalker/viking, concave, force fields etc. Other than that, if you flank with ~10 chargelots (or more of your army, if you are a positioning gosu - really risky if they attack one of the flanks when you're not ready to engage though, so hard to execute) you can totally mess up the terran's kiting plan. Distracting them with 1-2 zealots proxy warped and rallied to a mineral line means their multitask/apm is focused on their bases rather than viking/colossus dances. The biggest problem in pre-ghost/templar engagements seems like vikings preemptively getting shots off on colossus, so I feel pretty awesome if he's been too distracted to do any of that. If you're lucky you might even get some sick forcefield traps off as a result (don't count on it though haha). I know there are a lot of other techniques that you'll see really good players using, these are just the two I want to start doing myself. Once you get templar don't move them all with your army, leave a few at expansions/proxy pylon to build energy in case of surprise blanket emps, etc. I'm usually lax about obs/feedback sniping ghosts even though I know it's a "good" thing to do, but I've thought about it a little more and it seems basically analogous to sacrificing vikings to kill colossus. If you sac 2-3 templar to feedback their ghosts, they can't do anything about the storms you have left and everything dies. Definitely something I will have to make myself do more. | ||
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Lafer
United States114 Posts
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pezzaperry
142 Posts
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HellRush
Canada68 Posts
How do you transition if some ebay blocks your natural? I'm mostly using Huks 20 nexus, i fake a zealot but some terrans ebay block me anyway on maps like tal'darim where its obviously a 1gate expand. Do you go into 3gate? I find that im WAY behind if he ebay blocks me I go 3gate and he FEs ... Well i am actually looking for the same answer honestly, but going 3 gates, even if it is probably not the best option is still ok i think. You just have to put alot of pressure as soon as the guys decides to move down to take is natural. My problèeme is when they decide to do their Fe in their main -__- there i am at a loss ....  | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
Its at least 2 base muta ball into Muta+BL+infestors. He uses the muta to keep me pinned in my bases defending, while taking expoes. I can deal with harass ok, but eventually he adds BL and attacks me.. Something like 6-10 BL + 20 mutas + few infestors maybe.. No replay, but I usually first deny his third with zealots, get robo and twilight. When i scout muta tech I end up going blink stalkers + cannons + DT to try to deny his expos as well during the muta phase (without DT i have no map presence, i do WP zealot drops but that doesnt last long with mutas on the field). However, once BL join the battle, just blink stalkers die to broodlings + muta (esp if infestors also present). Star-gate units also get shut down by Muta (cant have a large enough number with a reactive SGs). I've even had ninja 3rds and still lost. Most Zergs I played vs also say they dont know how to beat this. Although some say DTs are bad, to go HT storm.. which i kinda agree with, but then i concede all map control... so sure ill have storms, but he will have 6 bases;o Wells since DT fail, next time I will try to rush mothership and HT for storms + archons.. seems like it may work, but if he spreads units by the time first muta + bl + infestor attack comes idk if I will have enough, or if i can get it in time. Otherwise, im thinking if it smells like muta just make early pheonix and hope I was right.. Any experience or advice vs this? Even theory-crafting I'm happy with. Perhaps Im underestimating storms.. | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
On February 03 2012 04:01 iokke wrote: I'm sorry if this was asked before, another muta question, although involving BL transition. I've just started facing it this week, but a lot and I really have no idea how to respond, even theoretically unless i open 2x stargate, which i never do... Its at least 2 base muta ball into Muta+BL+infestors. He uses the muta to keep me pinned in my bases defending, while taking expoes. I can deal with harass ok, but eventually he adds BL and attacks me.. Something like 6-10 BL + 20 mutas + few infestors maybe.. No replay, but I usually first deny his third with zealots, get robo and twilight. When i scout muta tech I end up going blink stalkers + cannons + DT to try to deny his expos as well during the muta phase (without DT i have no map presence, i do WP zealot drops but that doesnt last long with mutas on the field). However, once BL join the battle, just blink stalkers die to broodlings + muta (esp if infestors also present). Star-gate units also get shut down by Muta (cant have a large enough number with a reactive SGs). I've even had ninja 3rds and still lost. Most Zergs I played vs also say they dont know how to beat this. Although some say DTs are bad, to go HT storm.. which i kinda agree with, but then i concede all map control... so sure ill have storms, but he will have 6 bases;o Wells since DT fail, next time I will try to rush mothership and HT for storms + archons.. seems like it may work, but if he spreads units by the time first muta + bl + infestor attack comes idk if I will have enough, or if i can get it in time. Otherwise, im thinking if it smells like muta just make early pheonix and hope I was right.. Any experience or advice vs this? Even theory-crafting I'm happy with edit: also part of my problem may be that im sacking a lot of minerals into zealot/dt harass Basicly you want to get HT and storms and blink, get like 5 observers and spready them around your bases to see mutas so you got enough time to react easily with blink and storms, I would say if you get dts you only need like 1-3 and put them on patrol to patrol possible expanding locations. Get fast expos, by spreading your HTs and blink stalkers you can take fast expands as Zergs ground army is very bad as they use all resources and larva on mutas wich sucks on direct fight, some cannons on every base. if you can afford for Mothership get one. Push out once you are maxed or if the zerg looses lots of units on bad engagements (mutas and zerglings) as this is the moment when he is getting broodlords, you should be able to hit before they have finished the morphing wich allows you to choose location of the battle, leave some hts to each expand in case of mutas come back to harash. During this push just expand behind it around the map keeping in mind that you need save some resources for re maxing, Broodlords and slow so expanding around huge maps is good idea (remember the cannons) if everything else fails go for base trade or use archon toilet. | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
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Maxie
Sweden2653 Posts
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
Ok so about 6 months back i was a top 20 diamond player, took 6 months off laddering cos of shitty computer, and i just started laddering again after christmas. I got into platinum npnp and since then ive been rising (didnt play at all in the last 6 days and i was 1st the whole time, cos i had a nearly 200 point lead on 2nd place) i dont wanna sound like a twat, but i know im better then the people i vs, or at least i know what i should be doing/when to do it and what not. But my mechanics and relatively slow apm really let me down. Im vsing alot of diamond players, but i can go from vsing a top 8 diamond and winning to vs a rank 40 platinum so its a bit up and down. So now onto my question :p So i feel like i should be in diamond, and vsing people alot better, but obviously until my mechaincs inprove thats not gonna happen. So should i be trying to just get out of platinum as easily as i can, or should i be playing the way i'll be playing if i get into diamond? Ill give an example. I played 2 PvZ on metal today, and both i decided to FFE. In one game, i got 6 pooled, and the other, once he scouted my pylon on low ground i think he went for a 10 pool or something, got out 6-8 lings and pulled about 8 drones and i lost. (i know how i should have won the one where he pulled drones, if i just pull about 10 probes to stand infront of the cannon i had building on the low ground, it should have detered him) I think that players in lower leagues - even comparing platinum to diamond - dont know how to deal with things and just do crazy shit, and i think theres alot more cheese too. TL:DR should i be trying to go for the macro game every time, or should i just play safe and just try to get promoted so i can vs people that are more likely to macro too, and not blind cheese | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On February 04 2012 07:10 Maxie wrote: Hey all! I haven't played for about 4-5 months or so and coming back I feel like giving Protoss a shot. However, I have no clue of how the matchups have evolved during this time. If you could give me a few pointers to what's new when it comes to the PvX matchups from the last 6 months, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm not completely sure what you mean but I can tell you about the current popular builds. PvZ: It's still heavily based around 2base pushes but you can also take a third and go for a macro game, most players likes to open with a +1 4gate after a forge FE now. From the zerg perspective, they usually just mass mutas from 3 bases. PvT: Same old. 1-1-1 and 2rax. Immortals has gotten popular though as you can break bunkers with a 2base timing. Currently most players like to go for the double forge as well. PvP: It's all about getting both the robo and the twilight council. The blink + observer army composition allows you to harass like crazy while expanding and teching behind, or going all in with 4 gates. On the other hand the immortal stalker sentry army is a lot stronger in a direct confrontation but blink is delayed and it won't have as many stalkers. Phoniexes has also become quite a viable opening as you can forcefield your ramp much easier now. This also effectively killed the 4gate  That's all i can think of right now. Different players, different styles. On February 04 2012 07:16 ThatGuy89 wrote: ok long post here, i need a bit of help. Its not entirely toss related, but i didnt know where else to put it. Ok so about 6 months back i was a top 20 diamond player, took 6 months off laddering cos of shitty computer, and i just started laddering again after christmas. I got into platinum npnp and since then ive been rising (didnt play at all in the last 6 days and i was 1st the whole time, cos i had a nearly 200 point lead on 2nd place) i dont wanna sound like a twat, but i know im better then the people i vs, or at least i know what i should be doing/when to do it and what not. But my mechanics and relatively slow apm really let me down. Im vsing alot of diamond players, but i can go from vsing a top 8 diamond and winning to vs a rank 40 platinum so its a bit up and down. So now onto my question :p So i feel like i should be in diamond, and vsing people alot better, but obviously until my mechaincs inprove thats not gonna happen. So should i be trying to just get out of platinum as easily as i can, or should i be playing the way i'll be playing if i get into diamond? Ill give an example. I played 2 PvZ on metal today, and both i decided to FFE. In one game, i got 6 pooled, and the other, once he scouted my pylon on low ground i think he went for a 10 pool or something, got out 6-8 lings and pulled about 8 drones and i lost. (i know how i should have won the one where he pulled drones, if i just pull about 10 probes to stand infront of the cannon i had building on the low ground, it should have detered him) I think that players in lower leagues - even comparing platinum to diamond - dont know how to deal with things and just do crazy shit, and i think theres alot more cheese too. TL:DR should i be trying to go for the macro game every time, or should i just play safe and just try to get promoted so i can vs people that are more likely to macro too, and not blind cheese Well if you know what you're doing you can play greed ywhile being safe. For example you shouldnt lose to a 6pool when forge FEing if you send 2 scouts on TDA and other large map and react by throwing down cannons in your main. When you have defended you will be ahead against your opponent regardless of his skill level. I suggest you keep playing as greedy as you can while trying to defend everything because even if players macro better in diamond they cheese all the same. | ||
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