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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. |
On February 04 2012 07:16 ThatGuy89 wrote:
ok long post here, i need a bit of help. Its not entirely toss related, but i didnt know where else to put it.
Ok so about 6 months back i was a top 20 diamond player, took 6 months off laddering cos of shitty computer, and i just started laddering again after christmas. I got into platinum npnp and since then ive been rising (didnt play at all in the last 6 days and i was 1st the whole time, cos i had a nearly 200 point lead on 2nd place)
i dont wanna sound like a twat, but i know im better then the people i vs, or at least i know what i should be doing/when to do it and what not. But my mechanics and relatively slow apm really let me down. Im vsing alot of diamond players, but i can go from vsing a top 8 diamond and winning to vs a rank 40 platinum so its a bit up and down.
So now onto my question :p So i feel like i should be in diamond, and vsing people alot better, but obviously until my mechaincs inprove thats not gonna happen. So should i be trying to just get out of platinum as easily as i can, or should i be playing the way i'll be playing if i get into diamond?
Ill give an example. I played 2 PvZ on metal today, and both i decided to FFE. In one game, i got 6 pooled, and the other, once he scouted my pylon on low ground i think he went for a 10 pool or something, got out 6-8 lings and pulled about 8 drones and i lost. (i know how i should have won the one where he pulled drones, if i just pull about 10 probes to stand infront of the cannon i had building on the low ground, it should have detered him)
I think that players in lower leagues - even comparing platinum to diamond - dont know how to deal with things and just do crazy shit, and i think theres alot more cheese too.
TL:DR should i be trying to go for the macro game every time, or should i just play safe and just try to get promoted so i can vs people that are more likely to macro too, and not blind cheese
I doubt this is what you want to hear, but a huge part of getting into Diamond is being able to hold off cheese while still planning for a long game. It's entirely possible to hold off both a 6 pool and a 10 pool while doing a FFE with proper scouting. Note that I said possible though, not easy. You're always going to lose to these builds some, but you need to be able to react to them without killing your own economy. If you can get your cheese defense above 50% while still setting yourself up for a long term game, you're in good shape.
Also, keep in mind that solid play will trump a lot of the randomness you're running into. I know some of my friends in lower leagues complain about the weirdest stuff, BC rushes, insane 15 minute 1 base pushes, all kinds of stuff that just makes no sense to me. The thing is though, these builds can be effective in those leagues. What you have to learn is that there is a reason standard play is standard. If someone is doing something bizarre, your standard play will roll right over it almost every time. Again though, you have to be active and scout, and if it looks like you can just go kill them, you need to know the timings that your build can just go kill them.
Edit: something I noticed from my own time at lower leagues was that players often had a really solid matchup or build, and if you happen to run into it, it's actually really hard to deal with. On the other hand, if they're not following a strict build order or playing one of their less capable matchups, they look incredibly silly. So don't focus too much on the league of your opponent, it's easy to get discouraged losing to a gold player, but it's entirely possible that said gold player has platinum level ZvP, but his silver level ZvZ and ZvT are holding him back in terms of league promotion.
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I'd really appreciate some feedback on this game I just played. Even though it seems like 1/1/1 has been "figured out" I still die to it pretty much 90% of the time. In this game I believe I came as close to "countering" it as possible: expoed early, scouted it on time, defended banshee harass, cut probes at 35, got 5 gates + robo, forced PDD outside natural, got recommended composition and kept low energy on nexuses. Still lost terribly.
I know my forcefields were kind of random and possibly I could have got more sentries? But I don't think that would make the outcome much different. Should I have taken 3rd gas? Engaged earlier? Pull probes? Warp in zealots from behind? Thanks for any help.
http://drop.sc/103976
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United States8476 Posts
On February 04 2012 08:18 habermas wrote:I'd really appreciate some feedback on this game I just played. Even though it seems like 1/1/1 has been "figured out" I still die to it pretty much 90% of the time. In this game I believe I came as close to "countering" it as possible: expoed early, scouted it on time, defended banshee harass, cut probes at 35, got 5 gates + robo, forced PDD outside natural, got recommended composition and kept low energy on nexuses. Still lost terribly. I know my forcefields were kind of random and possibly I could have got more sentries? But I don't think that would make the outcome much different. Should I have taken 3rd gas? Engaged earlier? Pull probes? Warp in zealots from behind? Thanks for any help. http://drop.sc/103976
1. Your make a lot of macro mistakes throughout the game, ie not using chronoboost well, adding gates late, getting supply blocked. These things all add up.
2. You initially engage him when you have 600 minerals in the bank. That's 6 more zealots you could possibly have.
3. When you engage with a zealot based army, you must win the fight right there. Otherwise, you take too much damage both approaching his ranged army and retreating from it. So basically with that composition, you have to either kill him or get very close to killing him in one engagement.
4. When you engaged, your whole army was in a clump. Many many zealots got stuck behind your ranged units. You should have plenty of time to rearrange your units in the proper formations.
5. I highly recommend a flank with an immortal and a few zealots.
6. Your forcefields were really bad, but that didn't matter because of the other mistakes. 4 sentries is more than plenty to deal with this push. Your opponent hit at around 11:40 when the standard, especially versus a 1 gate fe should be between 9 and 10 mins. At that timing, I will usually only have 2-3 sentries to deal with the push. All you need is a guardian shield and around 3 ffs to prevent mass marine kiting.
7. I also personally recommend cutting probes at around 37 versus such a late push, but that's a very fine point.
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Thanks, that's some really good points. Regarding point 1 though, do you mean my 2nd and 3rd gates or 4th and 5th? I decided to go for gas and robo first after scouting 1/1/1 and I added 4th and 5th before making any additional units after zealot/stalker/stalker, so I'm not sure how this could be much faster.
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Your second and third gates were both late. At that point you had the minerals to go up to 4gate/robo.
Your opponent played incredibly greedy. Had you poked with your first zealot/stalker you would have done a lot of damage. You eventually do push him a bit but at that point it's a bit too late and you mismicro.
That's not the point of your question though.
If you're macroing and chronoing extremely well you only need 3gate/robo to hold a push coming this early.
You had a lot of downtime on your gates. 20 seconds before they're warpgates, 10, 15, 20 seconds between cycles. Just small downtimes that mean less units.
Your army composition is rather strong but you let him walk to your base and set up the position he wants.
I like making 6-8 early stalkers to harass the ramp, pick off banshees when they try to go home and ultimately set up a flank to deny reinforcements from freely walking across the map.
The stalkers can easily take on the army that walks over unchecked until they mass a small group.
Before their two armies are together, crush the main army from 2-3 sides. In your case you can warp zealots to the low ground to join the attack from a third angle while the zealot/sentry/immortal army pushes out from your natural.
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How do people get their 11 gate up at 1:25? The best I can do is 1:30. This is even after microing four workers to the two most efficient mineral patches. I normally start the game by building a probe then splinting probes into two groups of three.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 04 2012 09:55 Average Joe wrote:
How do people get their 11 gate up at 1:25? The best I can do is 1:30. This is even after microing four workers to the two most efficient mineral patches. I normally start the game by building a probe then splinting probes into two groups of three.
It might be the map. Some maps mine more efficiently than others. For example, xelnaga caverns is an efficient map while shattered temple isn't.
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 04 2012 10:11 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2012 09:55 Average Joe wrote:
How do people get their 11 gate up at 1:25? The best I can do is 1:30. This is even after microing four workers to the two most efficient mineral patches. I normally start the game by building a probe then splinting probes into two groups of three. It might be the map. Some maps mine more efficiently than others. For example, xelnaga caverns is an efficient map while shattered temple isn't.
Yup thats all it is Alej even mentions it in his thread 
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Hey guys,
http://drop.sc/105443
What do I do in this situation? Guy 7pools me while I forge FE. I drop a pylon and cannon in my mineral line and tech towards 4gate. He only makes 6 lings and then expands. Drops a baneling nest and tranforms his 6 lings into banelings and send them towards my probe line. I lost a few but am not totally out of the game. after that I just played from behind and eventually lose. In this situaiton, do I try to hold the FE anyway and clog up my ramp with probes? What to do vs the banes? Because they are faster than probes and he it takes a cannon a few shots to kill them so they are all but certain to get a few kills unless I have an amazing probe split.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 05 2012 16:32 TheHau wrote:Hey guys, http://drop.sc/105443What do I do in this situation? Guy 7pools me while I forge FE. I drop a pylon and cannon in my mineral line and tech towards 4gate. He only makes 6 lings and then expands. Drops a baneling nest and tranforms his 6 lings into banelings and send them towards my probe line. I lost a few but am not totally out of the game. after that I just played from behind and eventually lose. In this situaiton, do I try to hold the FE anyway and clog up my ramp with probes? What to do vs the banes? Because they are faster than probes and he it takes a cannon a few shots to kill them so they are all but certain to get a few kills unless I have an amazing probe split.
First of all, you can defend 6/7 pool on shak by walling off your natural, which puts you way ahead.
I'm going to pretend it's some other maps now. Next, you did a very weird reaction to the 7 pool. You went gas/cannon/gate, when you should be going cannon/gate/gas. Getting such early gas delayed your gateway/core a lot. By the time his banelings morph on 2 bases, you would have either a stalker or sentry to deal with them if you had done a normal build.
You also don't want to add any gateways to build units out of gateways. Time them out with when your warpgates finish.
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On February 05 2012 17:18 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2012 16:32 TheHau wrote:Hey guys, http://drop.sc/105443What do I do in this situation? Guy 7pools me while I forge FE. I drop a pylon and cannon in my mineral line and tech towards 4gate. He only makes 6 lings and then expands. Drops a baneling nest and tranforms his 6 lings into banelings and send them towards my probe line. I lost a few but am not totally out of the game. after that I just played from behind and eventually lose. In this situaiton, do I try to hold the FE anyway and clog up my ramp with probes? What to do vs the banes? Because they are faster than probes and he it takes a cannon a few shots to kill them so they are all but certain to get a few kills unless I have an amazing probe split. First of all, you can defend 6/7 pool on shak by walling off your natural, which puts you way ahead. I'm going to pretend it's some other maps now. Next, you did a very weird reaction to the 7 pool. You went gas/cannon/gate, when you should be going cannon/gate/gas. Getting such early gas delayed your gateway/core a lot. By the time his banelings morph on 2 bases, you would have either a stalker or sentry to deal with them if you had done a normal build. You also don't want to add any gateways to build units out of gateways. Time them out with when your warpgates finish.
Thanks monk
I guess I went gas early because I figured I would have more minerals than I could spend. I will delay that next time.
As far as the sort of build he did in general. If they just make 6-8 lings and then expand on a map that I have to sacrifice the forge, do I have to go all in at that point and kill them? It seems like if they know the 4gate is coming, they will just throw down a bunch of spines and make lings to defend and hold.
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Guys, is there any guide for 1gate 16 nexus build for PvZ (or something similar when you do like FFE but with 1 gateway)?
I'm doing that on maps like shakuras and it's viable vs 7pool, mass lings, roach rush and get's your tech faster and better scouting/map control. Also you can start WG research faster so +1 zealot/Voidray push has better economy behind it cuz you can chrono probes more and still have it fast enaugh.
I'm currently tweaking it and when i have good replays i might do a guide, but would like to read if someone already did something like this.
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On February 06 2012 21:01 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 18:38 Dariusz wrote:
Guys, is there any guide for 1gate 16 nexus build for PvZ (or something similar when you do like FFE but with 1 gateway)?
I'm doing that on maps like shakuras and it's viable vs 7pool, mass lings, roach rush and get's your tech faster and better scouting/map control. Also you can start WG research faster so +1 zealot/Voidray push has better economy behind it cuz you can chrono probes more and still have it fast enaugh.
I'm currently tweaking it and when i have good replays i might do a guide, but would like to read if someone already did something like this. I don't think I've heard of people doing that before. Seems really risky. This build could be similar to what you want: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
Oh wow, this build from liquipedia is pretty terrible, thanks anyway.
(And the build i'm doing is not risky at all, for me it's even safer than FFE because you can scout with zealots faster, it just sounds risky  )
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Im a noob in bronze currently 4th with about 20 points from 1st.
Let's just say i'm doing a 2 gate and robo opener (what im doing is most likely not as close as what i should be doing)
so i expand have about 2 immortals and ground army....
my problem is that every time i engage against another protoss or terran, i would lose really badly. Especially if the terran has conc shell and stim. it just rips through my army. I know a better concave and engage is needed but which kind of group units do i want againts marines/marauder and what kind of groud do i want agaitns a protoss? i'm not too worried about the early early cheese like if i scout a marine rush or 4 gate i would get sentries but mainly asking about we both having 2 bases or atleast me expanding and him all in on 1 base or something simmilar.
thanks!
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Does anyone have LiquidHero's or HuK's PvP opener? I think my timings are off and was wondering what the did.
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On February 06 2012 21:46 CommanchyWattkins wrote:Im a noob in bronze currently 4th with about 20 points from 1st. Let's just say i'm doing a 2 gate and robo opener (what im doing is most likely not as close as what i should be doing) so i expand have about 2 immortals and ground army.... my problem is that every time i engage against another protoss or terran, i would lose really badly. Especially if the terran has conc shell and stim. it just rips through my army. I know a better concave and engage is needed but which kind of group units do i want againts marines/marauder and what kind of groud do i want agaitns a protoss? i'm not too worried about the early early cheese like if i scout a marine rush or 4 gate i would get sentries but mainly asking about we both having 2 bases or atleast me expanding and him all in on 1 base or something simmilar. thanks!
In PvP the way to go is almost always colossus. Try getting one or two robos producing them constantly, even if it means you have to cut units, on two bases.
In PvT you need some kind of AoE when the supply numbers get higher, say around 130 food. Colossi does a good job here as well but if you want to you can also use HTs or archons (archons only in the mid game, you need stronger AoE late game even if the archon is still good for tanking).
However, if you can't get these up in time for his attack it might just be a waste of rescoures so you need to cut probes and not get too greedy. For example having maybe 5-10 probes at your natural still allows you to have a stronger economy than him, so just get that and out produce him in unit count.
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On February 06 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 21:06 Dariusz wrote:On February 06 2012 21:01 Sated wrote:On February 06 2012 18:38 Dariusz wrote:
Guys, is there any guide for 1gate 16 nexus build for PvZ (or something similar when you do like FFE but with 1 gateway)?
I'm doing that on maps like shakuras and it's viable vs 7pool, mass lings, roach rush and get's your tech faster and better scouting/map control. Also you can start WG research faster so +1 zealot/Voidray push has better economy behind it cuz you can chrono probes more and still have it fast enaugh.
I'm currently tweaking it and when i have good replays i might do a guide, but would like to read if someone already did something like this. I don't think I've heard of people doing that before. Seems really risky. This build could be similar to what you want: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE Oh wow, this build from liquipedia is pretty terrible, thanks anyway. (And the build i'm doing is not risky at all, for me it's even safer than FFE because you can scout with zealots faster, it just sounds risky ) A 1gate FE is risky against Zerg even when you get units before expanding, so a build that expands without any units and without any cannons is incredibly risky. There's nothing to stop the Zerg player from making a tonne of Zerglings and denying your Nexus, which will put you massively behind since your additional Gateways are late and your Core is late. I couldn't really comment on the YufFE build since I don't use it, but I don't think that calling it "terrible" is fair given the level it is supposed to work at.
I'll write a guide, the 1 gate 16 nexus (not 1gate FE) i'm doing holds 7 pool, mass lings on 1 or 2 base, 7 roach rush and 2 base roach/ling from masters players (that's what i had experience with so far, not many Bling busts tested yet). Never seen anyone doing it the way i do it so we're not talking about the same thing most likely.
Danying a nexus is not even possible, because i get wall and cannons in time, and zealots that are hugging the wall, it's all about scouting and doing one of many variations (every one of which is more optimal than FFE in my opinion),
It's very reactionary and map dependant aswell.
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EPT
