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On February 06 2012 22:20 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 22:07 Dariusz wrote:On February 06 2012 21:48 Sated wrote:On February 06 2012 21:06 Dariusz wrote:On February 06 2012 21:01 Sated wrote:On February 06 2012 18:38 Dariusz wrote:
Guys, is there any guide for 1gate 16 nexus build for PvZ (or something similar when you do like FFE but with 1 gateway)?
I'm doing that on maps like shakuras and it's viable vs 7pool, mass lings, roach rush and get's your tech faster and better scouting/map control. Also you can start WG research faster so +1 zealot/Voidray push has better economy behind it cuz you can chrono probes more and still have it fast enaugh.
I'm currently tweaking it and when i have good replays i might do a guide, but would like to read if someone already did something like this. I don't think I've heard of people doing that before. Seems really risky. This build could be similar to what you want: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE Oh wow, this build from liquipedia is pretty terrible, thanks anyway. (And the build i'm doing is not risky at all, for me it's even safer than FFE because you can scout with zealots faster, it just sounds risky  ) A 1gate FE is risky against Zerg even when you get units before expanding, so a build that expands without any units and without any cannons is incredibly risky. There's nothing to stop the Zerg player from making a tonne of Zerglings and denying your Nexus, which will put you massively behind since your additional Gateways are late and your Core is late. I couldn't really comment on the YufFE build since I don't use it, but I don't think that calling it "terrible" is fair given the level it is supposed to work at. I'll write a guide, the 1 gate 16 nexus (not 1gate FE) i'm doing holds 7 pool, mass lings on 1 or 2 base, 7 roach rush and 2 base roach/ling from masters players (that's what i had experience with so far, not many Bling busts tested yet). Never seen anyone doing it the way i do it so we're not talking about the same thing most likely. Danying a nexus is not even possible, because i get wall and cannons in time, and zealots that are hugging the wall, it's all about scouting and doing one of many variations (every one of which is more optimal than FFE in my opinion), It's very reactionary and map dependant aswell. You get Cannons? So you're going Gate->Nexus->Forge->Core? That's very similar to the YufFE, so I still don't get why you're calling it terrible... Anyway, I'd love to see a guide; it sounds interesting.
It's gate - nexus - core - forge (if no early pool is scouted) and you move out with your 2 zealots when your cannon is close to complete. Scouting with initial probe, then checking his gases and moving out with zealots soon after let's you react correctly.
The idea is to get Nexus as fast as FFE, but have the ability to react better and threaten agression (you can have much faster WG) vs fast 3 hatch builds (i fallow it up with +1 zealot/VR timing most of the time anyway).
And YufFe has hideous building placement, gets 17 probes, then pylon and then zealot, which i wouldn't be comfortable with vs 7 pool, and has later nexus ;(
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> And YufFe has hideous building placement, gets 17 probes, then pylon and
> then zealot, which i wouldn't be comfortable with vs 7 pool, and has later nexus ;(
For YufFE this statement is just wrong.
If you see hatch first:
YufFE-Core-First
If not standard
YufFE-Forge-First
> gets 17 probes, then pylon and then zealot
Not true for YufFE either:
9 Pylon at Choke
13 Warpgate
15-16 Pylon at 2:19
17 Zealot at 2:47
19 Nexus at 3:00
A Nexus at 17 is the usual timing for a FFE. A game between
Socke(p) and Morrow(Z)
show this kind of build.
This means the Nexus is build at 2:51 with YufFE 10 seconds later. I assume this 10 seconds won't matter until you get in GML. They certainly won't matter on my level.
If you skip the Zealot at 17, because no 6Pool is coming, you can build your Nexus at 2:53. Two seconds won't even matter in GML.
If you play on Shakuras you can scout at 15-16 (about 2:45) and will see 6Pool/7Pool coming and you can close the wall with:
- Forge
- Core
- additional Gate
whatever you like.
I am Gold, no Master, but since I play YufFE I am 5 of 5 against:
- 6Pool
- 7Pool-All-In with drones
and I have Replays to prove it.
> It's gate - nexus - core - forge (if no early pool is scouted)
Possible with YufFE, too.
I want to see proof why YufFE is terrible. Yuffie is a Top10 Protoss Master. He beats the following Zergs with YufFE:
- Revolver (Grandmaster #116),
- Safa (Master #4),
- Gera (Master #62),
- syriuszonito (Master #3),
- prOpJonas (Master #6),
- uPǂHyDrA (Master #13)
and DaNa (Master #1). Rankings = Season 4.
This opening can't be terrible if you can beat a GRANDMASTER with it. Watch the Replays, please!
Why is this a hideous building placement?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/a/a5/YufFE_building_placement_EntombedValley.jpg/290px-YufFE_building_placement_EntombedValley.jpg)
(more images: YufFE)
The cannon protects the Nexus and is shooting at the Speedlings trying to enter the Main ... which they can't (Wall + Zealot).
I am just Gold. I tried a lot in PvZ. Builds like
- 3Gate-Sentry-Expand
- FFE
= 44% in PvZ
(104 ladder games)
Since I use the YufFE
= 57%
(34 ladder games)
I think, these numbers are solid evidence to encourage ppl to try the YufFE.
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i also beat many GM with that build 
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I don't see how you stop zerg that just mass speedling with 1 cannon and no wall before your natural. Is one cannon with probes hugging it, enaugh vs 20+ speedlings? That's the main problem i see with it.
(the replay with speedlings shows guy taking fast 3rd behind his attack and his zerglings bang their heads against the wall of your main, so that's not a good representation imho.)
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usually i do have 2 canons to defend from mass ling. It's related to my scouting , if zerg goes fast 3. there is no need for 2. canon (same for Forge FE). and yes, i can hold it with my building placements.
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In PvT, is it possible to defend a marine/scv all-in with Huk's 20 Nexus opening build? If so, how? I hear that its possible by cancelling the Nexus upon seeing the rush coming, then building a choke at the ramp with 2 Gateways and Pylon?
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What is the optimal ingame time for you to get your first warp in of units in a 4 gate?
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I think it's 5.33 for a standard 4 Gate assuming Gate on 12 and 5 constant chrono on core - you should be able to warp in units after gates convert (5.43 I think). (Please correct me blues if this is incorrect.)
I believe there may be a variation which may get it earlier, Gate on 10 I think? But I am not sure.
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What is the best follow-up after defending a 6 pool with 2 gates?
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On February 07 2012 22:42 habermas wrote:
What is the best follow-up after defending a 6 pool with 2 gates?
I like to chrono out 4 zealots, then expand and get WG.
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On February 07 2012 07:58 bankai wrote:
In PvT, is it possible to defend a marine/scv all-in with Huk's 20 Nexus opening build? If so, how? I hear that its possible by cancelling the Nexus upon seeing the rush coming, then building a choke at the ramp with 2 Gateways and Pylon?
IMO huks 20 food opening is great vs scv marine all ins. I'm high master toss and have been using this a lot for about 6 months. What you want to do is kite with your first stalkers from his base all the way home to your base while pretty much only warping in stalkers. If it gets scary just sack the nexus and get sentries out to cut the push into small prices and just win. Get colossus after you hold it off and win or just a move, or do anything.
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Pretty simple. I despise PvP due to the high randomness factor. Generally I've found that if he's going for an early push/timing push with a build that isn't blindly countered by mine, I lose. If he tries it with a build that is blindly countered by mine, I win. On the rare occasions it goes past the timing push/allin, it just boilds down to who can get the most colossi the fastest which is boring as all-hell imo. It's so bad that I am making mistakes I'm not making against the other races (such as forgetting to actually get units when I can/should, missing upgrades etc).
I'm playing P atm due to very frequent random drops to 1fps (or less) which makes any form of proper micro almost impossible (Storm/Forcefield and similar things work somewhat decently). As soon as these are fixed I'm probably moving back to Terran. As such I'm just looking for something that'll get me by for now against the most common openings/timing pushes without crumbling at Diamond and higher.
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I have zero idea how I'm supposed to scout a roach all in when the lings find my probes around the map to scout the third.
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On February 08 2012 02:53 BuffaloBill wrote:
Pretty simple. I despise PvP due to the high randomness factor. Generally I've found that if he's going for an early push/timing push with a build that isn't blindly countered by mine, I lose. If he tries it with a build that is blindly countered by mine, I win. On the rare occasions it goes past the timing push/allin, it just boilds down to who can get the most colossi the fastest which is boring as all-hell imo. It's so bad that I am making mistakes I'm not making against the other races (such as forgetting to actually get units when I can/should, missing upgrades etc).
I'm playing P atm due to very frequent random drops to 1fps (or less) which makes any form of proper micro almost impossible (Storm/Forcefield and similar things work somewhat decently). As soon as these are fixed I'm probably moving back to Terran. As such I'm just looking for something that'll get me by for now against the most common openings/timing pushes without crumbling at Diamond and higher.
Popular misconception. If you play well - blink+obs, immortal expand, stargate openings are all safe and you don't "auto lose" to anything. Just improve.
I have zero idea how I'm supposed to scout a roach all in when the lings find my probes around the map to scout the third.
Hide probe better AND send zealot+stalker or 2zealots to poke, or put safety cannons and get early sentries, or roll the dice.
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United States8477 Posts
On February 08 2012 04:16 Dariusz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:53 BuffaloBill wrote:
Pretty simple. I despise PvP due to the high randomness factor. Generally I've found that if he's going for an early push/timing push with a build that isn't blindly countered by mine, I lose. If he tries it with a build that is blindly countered by mine, I win. On the rare occasions it goes past the timing push/allin, it just boilds down to who can get the most colossi the fastest which is boring as all-hell imo. It's so bad that I am making mistakes I'm not making against the other races (such as forgetting to actually get units when I can/should, missing upgrades etc).
I'm playing P atm due to very frequent random drops to 1fps (or less) which makes any form of proper micro almost impossible (Storm/Forcefield and similar things work somewhat decently). As soon as these are fixed I'm probably moving back to Terran. As such I'm just looking for something that'll get me by for now against the most common openings/timing pushes without crumbling at Diamond and higher. Popular misconception. If you play well - blink+obs, immortal expand, stargate openings are all safe and you don't "auto lose" to anything. Just improve.
Yea, this. Those 3 builds in addition to a gateway expand into robo are the relatively safe builds. They don't autolose to anything and aren't terribly behind anything if you play them out correctly. The more coinflip builds are fast colossi and dt builds as well as any allins.
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I have only just returned off of a hiatus which saw me through since basically the beta, I sort of followed the pro scene and have recently been watching more and more games, this spurred me to start stringing games together, I was able to get promoted from silver to gold on my third day of playing (today), this in large is due to me playing so much SC1 but now I am utterly lost as to what to open with vs P. PVZ is my best match up purely because it is quite similar to SC1 and I know how to storm :D, PVT is alright because it again is similar to SC1 PVZ (I.E 1 gate expo). But vs P I am utterly hopeless, my expansion timings are horrible and my opening builds are very erroneous, so my question is in the current meta what is a solid carte blanche PVP opener? and what should I be looking for?
Also I know this isn't the thread, but should a protoss want a few 1v1's I am game
DRNO - 381
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How can I harass a T player? I'm comfortable harassing P and Z, but I can never figure out how to do any damage unless T isn't paying attention. My main thoughts are warping into T's base with a wp while he is moving around mid, but this doesn't seem like it does much damage. I'm familiar with losing more in harassing than I kill, but I can never really kill more than an addon with 4 zealots, and 400/0 seems to much to trade for 25/25.
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On February 08 2012 04:32 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 04:16 Dariusz wrote:On February 08 2012 02:53 BuffaloBill wrote:
Pretty simple. I despise PvP due to the high randomness factor. Generally I've found that if he's going for an early push/timing push with a build that isn't blindly countered by mine, I lose. If he tries it with a build that is blindly countered by mine, I win. On the rare occasions it goes past the timing push/allin, it just boilds down to who can get the most colossi the fastest which is boring as all-hell imo. It's so bad that I am making mistakes I'm not making against the other races (such as forgetting to actually get units when I can/should, missing upgrades etc).
I'm playing P atm due to very frequent random drops to 1fps (or less) which makes any form of proper micro almost impossible (Storm/Forcefield and similar things work somewhat decently). As soon as these are fixed I'm probably moving back to Terran. As such I'm just looking for something that'll get me by for now against the most common openings/timing pushes without crumbling at Diamond and higher. Popular misconception. If you play well - blink+obs, immortal expand, stargate openings are all safe and you don't "auto lose" to anything. Just improve. Yea, this. Those 3 builds in addition to a gateway expand into robo are the relatively safe builds. They don't autolose to anything and aren't terribly behind anything if you play them out correctly. The more coinflip builds are fast colossi and dt builds as well as any allins.
I dunno about this, I use a DT FE pretty often and regularly beat all sorts of people with high MMR. I also have been beating every SG build I come across with fast Blink.
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On February 08 2012 04:32 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 04:16 Dariusz wrote:On February 08 2012 02:53 BuffaloBill wrote:
Pretty simple. I despise PvP due to the high randomness factor. Generally I've found that if he's going for an early push/timing push with a build that isn't blindly countered by mine, I lose. If he tries it with a build that is blindly countered by mine, I win. On the rare occasions it goes past the timing push/allin, it just boilds down to who can get the most colossi the fastest which is boring as all-hell imo. It's so bad that I am making mistakes I'm not making against the other races (such as forgetting to actually get units when I can/should, missing upgrades etc).
I'm playing P atm due to very frequent random drops to 1fps (or less) which makes any form of proper micro almost impossible (Storm/Forcefield and similar things work somewhat decently). As soon as these are fixed I'm probably moving back to Terran. As such I'm just looking for something that'll get me by for now against the most common openings/timing pushes without crumbling at Diamond and higher. Popular misconception. If you play well - blink+obs, immortal expand, stargate openings are all safe and you don't "auto lose" to anything. Just improve. Yea, this. Those 3 builds in addition to a gateway expand into robo are the relatively safe builds. They don't autolose to anything and aren't terribly behind anything if you play them out correctly. The more coinflip builds are fast colossi and dt builds as well as any allins.
How do you find immortal expands fare against fast archon and +1?
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EPT
