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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:06 Dujek wrote:
Hi, I just lost a game pretty badly to a hellion opening in PvT. I scouted a really fast factory with my probe so I switched from doing a 1 gate FE to a 3 gate robo build. But it didn't matter because very quickly there were 4 hellions in my base against my zealot and 2 stalkers. I ended up losing all but 4 of my mining probes.
I can't think of any way to stop this from doing so much damage without walling off with a choke at the ramp. But It feels like a massive disadvantage to do that in PvT every game and I've only encountered this hellion build once.
I'm in Platinum. What can I do to win against this?
Replay
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ill end this thread right now.....step one: get warp gate tech, step two:win cuz u got warp gate tech
User was warned for this post
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I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right.
http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71
I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 06:44 Dujek wrote:I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right. http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it.
Yea, just as I suspected; he went gas first into fast factory, which you completely scouted. Thus, you know he's going to do something hellion based. You should stay in his base even longer, seeing where he puts the reactor, either on his rax or his factory. There's no need whatsoever to poke with your first zealot, thus losing it. Initially, you'll want to block your ramp with 2 stalkers. Then go for a pylon or gateway wall. Fast robo is really useless versus this as cloaked banshee off of what you scouted is very rare and you should be pressuring to deal with cloaked banshee instead of directly dealing with it with a super fast obs. I also recommend at least an aggressive 3 gate opening as while hellions are good at killing probes, they're not good versus gateway aggression.
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On February 09 2012 06:44 Dujek wrote:I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right. http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it.
Ok, I watched the replay and this is what happened.
You saw his factory, you lucky dog you  , and his reactor on his barracks. So think to yourself, no marauders!! yay!! those units are good and he isnt making them.
Most builds in PvT cut that first zealot, especially on a 1 gate FE, instead chrono out 1 stalker, then throw down the nexus, then chrono out another stalker, or even 2 because you saw no tech lab on the barracks!!
Your first stalker should be out at 4:15, yours was not yet done, and you didn't chrono it. You had 90 energy on your nexus, those chrono could have been spent on those stalkers or a probe or 2.
You said you were going 3 gate robo, this build gets units up faster. However you chronoed your cyber core 1 time, and WG finished a little late.
Your gateway was idle for 15 seconds, this is also very big, on top of missing chronoboosts.
1 gate FE is really good at stopping the 1/1/1, which is what I would have been most worried about in that game. I always 1 gate FE, especially when you didnt see any tech lab. With a 1 gate FE you force him to do 2 things.
1) Expand, but his will be late and you have an advantage
2) Attack, he sacrifices econ and you should be prepared seeing as he had aggressive building placement with fast tech (he needed that gas right? 75 mins for refinery + the time on the scv to build it + 3 scvs not mining minerals to mine 100 gas=alot of minerals)
One of the things I like to do alot vs terran if I get into their base is gas steal. This makes his 1/1/1 late, and I HATE defending that build, so ill spend 75 minerals to make sure he does a poor one or not at all. Then he will obviously go marine marauder and try to push, get those sentries up and force field that.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 07:09 Peanutbutter717 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 06:44 Dujek wrote:I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right. http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it. Ok, I watched the replay and this is what happened. You saw his factory, you lucky dog you , and his reactor on his barracks. So think to yourself, no marauders!! yay!! those units are good and he isnt making them. Most builds in PvT cut that first zealot, especially on a 1 gate FE, instead chrono out 1 stalker, then throw down the nexus, then chrono out another stalker, or even 2 because you saw no tech lab on the barracks!! Your first stalker should be out at 4:15, yours was not yet done, and you didn't chrono it. You had 90 energy on your nexus, those chrono could have been spent on those stalkers or a probe or 2. You said you were going 3 gate robo, this build gets units up faster. However you chronoed your cyber core 1 time, and WG finished a little late. Your gateway was idle for 15 seconds, this is also very big, on top of missing chronoboosts. 1 gate FE is really good at stopping the 1/1/1, which is what I would have been most worried about in that game. I always 1 gate FE, especially when you didnt see any tech lab. With a 1 gate FE you force him to do 2 things. 1) Expand, but his will be late and you have an advantage 2) Attack, he sacrifices econ and you should be prepared seeing as he had aggressive building placement with fast tech (he needed that gas right? 75 mins for refinery + the time on the scv to build it + 3 scvs not mining minerals to mine 100 gas=alot of minerals) One of the things I like to do alot vs terran if I get into their base is gas steal. This makes his 1/1/1 late, and I HATE defending that build, so ill spend 75 minerals to make sure he does a poor one or not at all. Then he will obviously go marine marauder and try to push, get those sentries up and force field that.
I disagree with a lot of things in here. If you notice from that game, he wasn't going for a 1-1-1 allin at all. I do not recommend 1 gate fe versus this nor do I recommend stealing 2nd gas, even though he couldn't in that game. Most gas first builds are either mass hellions or fast medivac/hellion/marine and many don't get the 2nd gas. Specifically 1 gate fe does very poorly versus gas first medivac/hellion/marine and doesn't punish a mass hellion opening.
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On February 09 2012 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 07:09 Peanutbutter717 wrote:On February 09 2012 06:44 Dujek wrote:I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right. http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it. Ok, I watched the replay and this is what happened. You saw his factory, you lucky dog you , and his reactor on his barracks. So think to yourself, no marauders!! yay!! those units are good and he isnt making them. Most builds in PvT cut that first zealot, especially on a 1 gate FE, instead chrono out 1 stalker, then throw down the nexus, then chrono out another stalker, or even 2 because you saw no tech lab on the barracks!! Your first stalker should be out at 4:15, yours was not yet done, and you didn't chrono it. You had 90 energy on your nexus, those chrono could have been spent on those stalkers or a probe or 2. You said you were going 3 gate robo, this build gets units up faster. However you chronoed your cyber core 1 time, and WG finished a little late. Your gateway was idle for 15 seconds, this is also very big, on top of missing chronoboosts. 1 gate FE is really good at stopping the 1/1/1, which is what I would have been most worried about in that game. I always 1 gate FE, especially when you didnt see any tech lab. With a 1 gate FE you force him to do 2 things. 1) Expand, but his will be late and you have an advantage 2) Attack, he sacrifices econ and you should be prepared seeing as he had aggressive building placement with fast tech (he needed that gas right? 75 mins for refinery + the time on the scv to build it + 3 scvs not mining minerals to mine 100 gas=alot of minerals) One of the things I like to do alot vs terran if I get into their base is gas steal. This makes his 1/1/1 late, and I HATE defending that build, so ill spend 75 minerals to make sure he does a poor one or not at all. Then he will obviously go marine marauder and try to push, get those sentries up and force field that. I disagree with a lot of things in here. If you notice from that game, he wasn't going for a 1-1-1 allin at all. I do not recommend 1 gate fe versus this nor do I recommend stealing 2nd gas, even though he couldn't in that game. Most gas first builds are either mass hellions or fast medivac/hellion/marine and many don't get the 2nd gas. Specifically 1 gate fe does very poorly versus gas first medivac/hellion/marine and doesn't punish a mass hellion opening.
1-1-1 doesnt mean banshee first, he could do medivac hellion drops and marine pressure, maybe even with a raven he could push. I meant 1 rax 1 fac 1 port. With good building placement, especially on that map, 1 gate FE works very well against alot of things, obviously if you see 4 rax don't.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 07:48 Peanutbutter717 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 07:27 NrGmonk wrote:On February 09 2012 07:09 Peanutbutter717 wrote:On February 09 2012 06:44 Dujek wrote:I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right. http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it. Ok, I watched the replay and this is what happened. You saw his factory, you lucky dog you , and his reactor on his barracks. So think to yourself, no marauders!! yay!! those units are good and he isnt making them. Most builds in PvT cut that first zealot, especially on a 1 gate FE, instead chrono out 1 stalker, then throw down the nexus, then chrono out another stalker, or even 2 because you saw no tech lab on the barracks!! Your first stalker should be out at 4:15, yours was not yet done, and you didn't chrono it. You had 90 energy on your nexus, those chrono could have been spent on those stalkers or a probe or 2. You said you were going 3 gate robo, this build gets units up faster. However you chronoed your cyber core 1 time, and WG finished a little late. Your gateway was idle for 15 seconds, this is also very big, on top of missing chronoboosts. 1 gate FE is really good at stopping the 1/1/1, which is what I would have been most worried about in that game. I always 1 gate FE, especially when you didnt see any tech lab. With a 1 gate FE you force him to do 2 things. 1) Expand, but his will be late and you have an advantage 2) Attack, he sacrifices econ and you should be prepared seeing as he had aggressive building placement with fast tech (he needed that gas right? 75 mins for refinery + the time on the scv to build it + 3 scvs not mining minerals to mine 100 gas=alot of minerals) One of the things I like to do alot vs terran if I get into their base is gas steal. This makes his 1/1/1 late, and I HATE defending that build, so ill spend 75 minerals to make sure he does a poor one or not at all. Then he will obviously go marine marauder and try to push, get those sentries up and force field that. I disagree with a lot of things in here. If you notice from that game, he wasn't going for a 1-1-1 allin at all. I do not recommend 1 gate fe versus this nor do I recommend stealing 2nd gas, even though he couldn't in that game. Most gas first builds are either mass hellions or fast medivac/hellion/marine and many don't get the 2nd gas. Specifically 1 gate fe does very poorly versus gas first medivac/hellion/marine and doesn't punish a mass hellion opening. 1-1-1 doesnt mean banshee first, he could do medivac hellion drops and marine pressure, maybe even with a raven he could push. I meant 1 rax 1 fac 1 port. With good building placement, especially on that map, 1 gate FE works very well against alot of things, obviously if you see 4 rax don't.
As I said in my previous post, it's very hard to defend a gas first marine/hellion/medivac drop off of 1 gate fe, especially in close air pos, because the drop comes so fast.
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Would like some general pointers here: on maps where I don't feel comfortable 1 gate FE'ing (such as close air position Shattered Temple), I go for the standard 2 gate robo FE - if I scout the 7.30min marine/tank allin (which is very popular amongst high master terrans on the SEA server), what should the proper response be?
Should I be canceling the nexus? Just sack it when his army arrives? Since the nexus starts late (about 6~6.30min) on a 2 gate robo build, it doesn't really pay itself off. I feel its impossible to hold without cancelling especially when they bring a dozen or so SCV's with it. But the problem with canceling the nexus is that a terran can easily scout it and decide to just expand instead (which has happened before) - it feels like I'm on the back foot the entire time. So, yeah, if the high level Tosses here can give some general guidelines on what the response and follow ups should be in these situations, I would be ultra grateful, thanks!!
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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 09:30 Zealot Lord wrote:
Would like some general pointers here: on maps where I don't feel comfortable 1 gate FE'ing (such as close air position Shattered Temple), I go for the standard 2 gate robo FE - if I scout the 7.30min marine/tank allin (which is very popular amongst high master terrans on the SEA server), what should the proper response be?
Should I be canceling the nexus? Just sack it when his army arrives? Since the nexus starts late (about 6~6.30min) on a 2 gate robo build, it doesn't really pay itself off. I feel its impossible to hold without cancelling especially when they bring a dozen or so SCV's with it. But the problem with canceling the nexus is that a terran can easily scout it and decide to just expand instead (which has happened before) - it feels like I'm on the back foot the entire time. So, yeah, if the high level Tosses here can give some general guidelines on what the response and follow ups should be in these situations, I would be ultra grateful, thanks!!
Cancel the nexus and cut all units except immortals and zealots to hold it off. Your count of ~2-3 sentries at this point should be more than enough to hold it off. Also, I don't think it's very easy for terran to scout your lack of expo. If you want more advice than that, post a replay.
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On February 09 2012 09:30 Zealot Lord wrote:
Would like some general pointers here: on maps where I don't feel comfortable 1 gate FE'ing (such as close air position Shattered Temple), I go for the standard 2 gate robo FE - if I scout the 7.30min marine/tank allin (which is very popular amongst high master terrans on the SEA server), what should the proper response be?
Should I be canceling the nexus? Just sack it when his army arrives? Since the nexus starts late (about 6~6.30min) on a 2 gate robo build, it doesn't really pay itself off. I feel its impossible to hold without cancelling especially when they bring a dozen or so SCV's with it. But the problem with canceling the nexus is that a terran can easily scout it and decide to just expand instead (which has happened before) - it feels like I'm on the back foot the entire time. So, yeah, if the high level Tosses here can give some general guidelines on what the response and follow ups should be in these situations, I would be ultra grateful, thanks!!
Replays man.
If you scout that he doesn't have expo and goes for tank/marine you can:
A - Sac nexus, go for colossi and win (you can add warp prism if he contains you)
B - cut probes and add 2 more gateways as soon as you identify the build (you have fast obs) and flank his army with zealots and immortals when he comes to you.
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On February 09 2012 09:36 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 09:30 Zealot Lord wrote:
Would like some general pointers here: on maps where I don't feel comfortable 1 gate FE'ing (such as close air position Shattered Temple), I go for the standard 2 gate robo FE - if I scout the 7.30min marine/tank allin (which is very popular amongst high master terrans on the SEA server), what should the proper response be?
Should I be canceling the nexus? Just sack it when his army arrives? Since the nexus starts late (about 6~6.30min) on a 2 gate robo build, it doesn't really pay itself off. I feel its impossible to hold without cancelling especially when they bring a dozen or so SCV's with it. But the problem with canceling the nexus is that a terran can easily scout it and decide to just expand instead (which has happened before) - it feels like I'm on the back foot the entire time. So, yeah, if the high level Tosses here can give some general guidelines on what the response and follow ups should be in these situations, I would be ultra grateful, thanks!! Cancel the nexus and cut all units except immortals and zealots to hold it off. Your count of ~2-3 sentries at this point should be more than enough to hold it off. Also, I don't think it's very easy for terran to scout your lack of expo. If you want more advice than that, post a replay.
First of all, thanks for the prompt replies you two, appreciate it.
Sorry I have this (really bad) tendency to just delete replays after I go through them once T_T But I'll definitely post one the next time if I lose to it again!
One last quick followup. What about the scenario in which the Terran decides to expand off of it after I canceled my nexus? As some terrans I play against do scan the natural before they attack. What do I do then? Get collosus and counter all-in?
DariusZ - so you FF the ramp to buy time and attack as soon as the one collosus pops correct?
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Are there ways to determine the finish of Stim-Research relative exactly like in PvZ with Lingspeed and Gastiming? Or just vague judgement by my opponents Opening?
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Hello my fellow Brotoss. So I come to you with an issue in my last PvT game that I played. I am a diamond toss and was playing against a terran (also diamond) on metal. I scouted a tech lab on his rax and opened up 3 gate expo. What ended up happening was that I expoed and then got a robo and 2 forges. I had 1/1 researching and scouted he had three barracks and an 3rd CC on the way. Seeing that I figured it was safe to expand but while planting my 3rd nexus he came and overpowered me with a 1/1 marine marauder push.
Now I have two theories of what I should have done rather than what I did.
1. I should have at least 5 warpgates before taking my 3rd if I'm going robo into 1/1 before HT.
2. get faster high templars with only 3 gates and then get my ups while expanding and adding on more gateways.
Those are just my theories so they may be completely wrong for all I know, like I said I'm just a diamond player trying to learn the game. So if either of those theories are good or they are completely wrong, let me know and tell me what you think I should do please. Thanks
Here's the replay.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17818
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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 12:19 JMC4 wrote:Hello my fellow Brotoss. So I come to you with an issue in my last PvT game that I played. I am a diamond toss and was playing against a terran (also diamond) on metal. I scouted a tech lab on his rax and opened up 3 gate expo. What ended up happening was that I expoed and then got a robo and 2 forges. I had 1/1 researching and scouted he had three barracks and an 3rd CC on the way. Seeing that I figured it was safe to expand but while planting my 3rd nexus he came and overpowered me with a 1/1 marine marauder push. Now I have two theories of what I should have done rather than what I did. 1. I should have at least 5 warpgates before taking my 3rd if I'm going robo into 1/1 before HT. 2. get faster high templars with only 3 gates and then get my ups while expanding and adding on more gateways. Those are just my theories so they may be completely wrong for all I know, like I said I'm just a diamond player trying to learn the game. So if either of those theories are good or they are completely wrong, let me know and tell me what you think I should do please. Thanks Here's the replay. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/17818
There was no reason to open 3 gate if you're not going to be aggressive. 1 gate expand accomplishes the same thing and gets a much earlier expo. You're basically playing from behind from your opening. Keep this in time.
Useless cannons. They're useless at that timing and badly positioned to deal with drops.
Losing you observer; because you lost it, you didn't know his infrastructural, that he had no starport and instead had fast 1-1. If you scouted this, you should have skewed your defense towards defending a frontal attack instead of preparing for air(medivac/banshee). To that effect, you should have make more sentry, more immortal, more zealot, and less stalkers.
Bad forcefields.
To be honest, if you had 1 more immortal in that fight and 2 fewer stalkers, you would have won easily even with all the other mistakes, especially cause he was so marauder heavy.
To address your you theories:
1. You don't always need 5+ warpgates before taking a 3rd.
2. You don't need AoE at that timing.
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United States8476 Posts
On February 09 2012 11:16 Xanatoss wrote:
Are there ways to determine the finish of Stim-Research relative exactly like in PvZ with Lingspeed and Gastiming? Or just vague judgement by my opponents Opening?
~8:20 minutes at earliest if he opened tech lab with shells first but can be earlier if he skipped shells.
~9:30 minutes at earliest if he opened 1 rax no gas fe
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On February 09 2012 06:56 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 06:44 Dujek wrote:I couldn't get SC2 replayed to work, hope this is right. http://www.mediafire.com/?o7d1dsnqhrwpw71I lost my zealot early but I don't think it would have helped. I'm thinking I could have walled off around my base and made a choke, but I'm not sure if I had enough buildings to do it. Yea, just as I suspected; he went gas first into fast factory, which you completely scouted. Thus, you know he's going to do something hellion based. You should stay in his base even longer, seeing where he puts the reactor, either on his rax or his factory. There's no need whatsoever to poke with your first zealot, thus losing it. Initially, you'll want to block your ramp with 2 stalkers. Then go for a pylon or gateway wall. Fast robo is really useless versus this as cloaked banshee off of what you scouted is very rare and you should be pressuring to deal with cloaked banshee instead of directly dealing with it with a super fast obs. I also recommend at least an aggressive 3 gate opening as while hellions are good at killing probes, they're not good versus gateway aggression.
Thanks that's a great help.
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On February 08 2012 18:42 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 16:43 aZealot wrote:On February 08 2012 09:19 Latedi wrote:On February 08 2012 08:56 aZealot wrote:
How about a Gate expand? I find I can get by on 2 geysers for a considerable time - at least up until my 8.00-9.00 minute poke. But I'm only in Gold, so I don't know if that is correct. It feels right though, as it does not seem the time to tech. What kind of expand? What strategy are you going for? It can be good, it can be bad. 2 Gate expand into a 2 Zealot, 5/6 Sentry, 6 - 8 Stalker push at around 8 - 9 minutes in game. That, or fake pressure, if he has stayed on 2 bases and isn't teching and look to take an early 3rd perhaps (or turtle for a little while) before transitioning into a robo tech and a macro game. I find that I am mineral starved more than gas starved at that point (6 - 9 minutes) in the game, so I've stopped taking a 3rd geyser until I decide what next. The only times I'll really push, come what may, is if I scout some sort of 2 base Muta build in which case I look for fast +1, drop a 4th gate, maybe drop a geyser, and try to hit him hard before the 10 minute mark so that the problem is nipped in the bud. (It usually works but if I wait too long, he gets too many Muta and I find you die the death of a thousand cuts.) PvZ 2gate FE -> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=253932That gives some good guidelines one what to do with a 2gate expand.
Thanks. I remember that thread when it first came out, but my game was not good enough at that point. I subsequently forgot about it and slowly worked towards my own PvZ.
Strangely enough, what I try and do in PvZ (at least in the early game) is similar except this is clearly a lot more developed. I get my gas a little earlier so I have ~350 gas when WG research is completed for Hallu; 2 Sentries; and surplus 50 gas towards a possible +1 after the next warp cycle (depending on 2 Sentries or Sentry/Stalker). I also cut probes at 32 to get my Nexus down earlier. But this has nice follow-ups with blink and the 3rd gas timing and a plan for the rest of the match-up. Thanks, I'll look to implement this in my PvZ (with my own tweaks) in future games.
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Have a problem I would like some advice on.
As a Protoss, I often find myself playing long macro games vs Zerg. I've been having a repeating problem sometimes when our maxed deathballs clash, I barely win the fight and promptly lose to a follow-up wave of mass roaches.
I'm under the impression it's very easy for a Zerg to make a lot of roaches very quickly at not a huge cost, and I don't have the colossi numbers to beat it down straight after a large fight. Is this a fixable problem, or is it some other flaw in my play that allows it to become one? Should I be steamrolling with my deathball easily enough to cope with follow-up waves? Any help is appreciated.
PS. I am Gold league
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On February 10 2012 05:17 nethertwist wrote:
Have a problem I would like some advice on.
As a Protoss, I often find myself playing long macro games vs Zerg. I've been having a repeating problem sometimes when our maxed deathballs clash, I barely win the fight and promptly lose to a follow-up wave of mass roaches.
I'm under the impression it's very easy for a Zerg to make a lot of roaches very quickly at not a huge cost, and I don't have the colossi numbers to beat it down straight after a large fight. Is this a fixable problem, or is it some other flaw in my play that allows it to become one? Should I be steamrolling with my deathball easily enough to cope with follow-up waves? Any help is appreciated.
PS. I am Gold league
This means one of a few things.
Your positioning is terrible and/or you don't have sufficient forcefields.
Forcefields are a MUST against roaches.
He's outmacroing you to kill your army AND reinforce with roaches.
If he's up 2+ bases on you, you're pretty much screwed, so just max and pray.
Upgrades. Upgraded roaches kill gateway units so fast which is why you need forcefields.
Upgrade advantage + sufficient colossi count vs roaches = you win so easy lols
A replay would help, but this is probably why you're dying to roaches.
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EPT
