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On August 17 2011 00:10 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 00:05 Artisian wrote:
while with +1 attack, thanks to shield mechanics it doesn't effect stalker vs stalker What? Please think before you post. That makes no sense at all.
try it in unit tester. I just did, but here's the math anyway.
80 shields/15 attack (stalker with +1 on stalker) + 80 health/14 attack = 11.04 attacks to kill
80 shields/14 attack (stalker with +0 on stalker) + 80 health/13 attack = 11.86 attacks to kill
attacks to kill round up, so +1 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker is no better than +0 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker, you just have more overkill. shield mechanics tie in because the last hit that breaks the shield is effected by armor, however that doesn't influence this battle, that influences zealot on stalker, my mistake.
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On August 17 2011 00:24 Artisian wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 00:10 Anihc wrote:On August 17 2011 00:05 Artisian wrote:
while with +1 attack, thanks to shield mechanics it doesn't effect stalker vs stalker What? Please think before you post. That makes no sense at all. try it in unit tester. I just did, but here's the math anyway. 80 shields/15 attack (stalker with +1 on stalker) + 80 health/14 attack = 11.04 attacks to kill 80 shields/14 attack (stalker with +0 on stalker) + 80 health/13 attack = 11.86 attacks to kill attacks to kill round up, so +1 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker is no better than +0 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker, you just have more overkill. shield mechanics tie in because the last hit that breaks the shield is effected by armor, however that doesn't influence this battle, that influences zealot on stalker, my mistake.
Oh I see what you mean, it takes a 1/0 stalker the same number of hits as an unupgraded 0/0 stalker to kill another stalker. That's a good point, sorry for being mean. Your statement was just really confusing because that has nothing to do at all with shield mechanics though.
I guess if it was just a pure stalker vs stalker fight it's better to have 0/1 stalkers against 0/0 stalkers than 1/0 stalkers. But that relies on so many assumptions/factors that it's still never worth it, such as:
- There are no other units but stalkers involved (on either side). Even if you just throw in a few zealots, or a sentry or immortal, attack becomes favored over armor.
- There is 1 big battle with pure stalker vs pure stalker, and the game is over. Even if you're planning on doing an "all-in" attack, it's very common that multiple battles and skirmishes will still happen, allowing shield to regen and armor to not be in effect as much.
- Your opponent did not get +1 attack. 1/0 stalkers have the advantage over 0/1 stalkers.
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On August 17 2011 00:50 Anihc wrote:
Oh I see what you mean, it takes a 1/0 stalker the same number of hits as an unupgraded 0/0 stalker to kill another stalker. That's a good point, sorry for being mean. Your statement was just really confusing because that has nothing to do at all with shield mechanics though.
I guess if it was just a pure stalker vs stalker fight it's better to have 0/1 stalkers against 0/0 stalkers than 1/0 stalkers. But that relies on so many assumptions/factors that it's still never worth it, such as:
- There are no other units but stalkers involved (on either side). Even if you just throw in a few zealots, or a sentry or immortal, attack becomes favored over armor.
- There is 1 big battle with pure stalker vs pure stalker, and the game is over. Even if you're planning on doing an "all-in" attack, it's very common that multiple battles and skirmishes will still happen, allowing shield to regen and armor to not be in effect as much.
- Your opponent did not get +1 attack. 1/0 stalkers have the advantage over 0/1 stalkers.
Apologies for the misunderstanding, I tend to write in a sort of shorthand.
The reasoning for +1 armor being better than +1 attack being that armor effects every combination of 1 unit on 1 unit positively for whoever has the upgrade, while +1 attack doesn't change stalker vs stalker. in zealot stalker vs zealot stalker, where 1 has a build that allowed him to get either +1 armor or +1 attack, regardless of how it micro's out the armor will always return time for an extra hit from both units, while +1 attack may result in both stalkers killing each other, and your zeal coming out alive with only 10 some odd health.
At the end of a fight, especially in PvP where shields regenerate to give your army more bulk, what matters is how many units of yous survive. what i mean is that a zealot and a stalker that come out of a fight with 5 health each will be 55 and 85 health respectively in the next engagement.
Perhaps the best way i can illustrate this is with a % of change each upgrade makes if it is an advantage over the opponent.
Numbers in spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +
upgrades always on the second unit
Zeal vs stalker with +1 armor takes 12/11 normally lives 109% as long 9% change
Zeal vs stalker with +1 atk. stalk kills in 15/16 normally kills in 93% the time 7% change
Zeal vs zeal with +1 armor takes 12/11 normally lives 109% as long 9% change
Zeal vs zeal with +1 atk kills in 10/11 normally kills in 90.9% the time, 9.1% change
stalker vs zeal with +1 armor takes 18/17 normally lives 105% as long 5% change
stalker vs zeal with +1 atk kills in 10/11 normally kills in 90.9% the time 9.1% change
stalker vs stalker with +1 armor takes 13/12 normally lives 108% as long 8% change
stalker vs stalker with +1 attack takes 12/12 normally kills in 100% the time 0% change
average benefit with +1 armor: 7.7%
average benefit with +1 attack: 6.3%
Note zealots scale better with attack than armor and stalkers scale better with armor than attack, however zealots are melee and thus have a harder time doing any damage at all as numbers increase.
Also note these assume the dps is evenly spread out in time and you can actually do something in that 6% of extra longevity besides wait to die which isn't always the case. In theory 8% of doing something, even being on attack cooldown, is worth more than 6% of the same (especially if the battle ends in that 2% time difference).
The advantage that probably makes +1 attack worth more in general is it kills buildings faster, making it better vs photon cannons and for harass. Armor only preforms better when you are being attacked by something.
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On August 17 2011 00:50 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 00:24 Artisian wrote:On August 17 2011 00:10 Anihc wrote:On August 17 2011 00:05 Artisian wrote:
while with +1 attack, thanks to shield mechanics it doesn't effect stalker vs stalker What? Please think before you post. That makes no sense at all. try it in unit tester. I just did, but here's the math anyway. 80 shields/15 attack (stalker with +1 on stalker) + 80 health/14 attack = 11.04 attacks to kill 80 shields/14 attack (stalker with +0 on stalker) + 80 health/13 attack = 11.86 attacks to kill attacks to kill round up, so +1 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker is no better than +0 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker, you just have more overkill. shield mechanics tie in because the last hit that breaks the shield is effected by armor, however that doesn't influence this battle, that influences zealot on stalker, my mistake. Oh I see what you mean, it takes a 1/0 stalker the same number of hits as an unupgraded 0/0 stalker to kill another stalker. That's a good point, sorry for being mean. Your statement was just really confusing because that has nothing to do at all with shield mechanics though. I guess if it was just a pure stalker vs stalker fight it's better to have 0/1 stalkers against 0/0 stalkers than 1/0 stalkers. But that relies on so many assumptions/factors that it's still never worth it, such as: - There are no other units but stalkers involved (on either side). Even if you just throw in a few zealots, or a sentry or immortal, attack becomes favored over armor. - There is 1 big battle with pure stalker vs pure stalker, and the game is over. Even if you're planning on doing an "all-in" attack, it's very common that multiple battles and skirmishes will still happen, allowing shield to regen and armor to not be in effect as much. - Your opponent did not get +1 attack. 1/0 stalkers have the advantage over 0/1 stalkers.
Anihc you're so BM ... T.T
On topic, If you're going to consider only stalkers vs stalkers in the early game then one might argue that 2 additional stalkers is worth more than either +1/+0 or +0/+1.
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On August 17 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote:
On topic, If you're going to consider only stalkers vs stalkers in the early game then one might argue that 2 additional stalkers is worth more than either +1/+0 or +0/+1.
The actual assumption is either a slight probe lead for the upgrading player and equal production structures being used roughly the same OR one player teching for something and the other getting a +1 upgrade. You need near equal armies for upgrades to make a difference either way.
Edit: that doesn't fully answer does it? My previous post tries to show how you get more of an advantage from armor than attack with any stalker heavy army. Early game you really shouldn't have any game ending battles unless your vs a 4 gate, your units are as fast as his and you can usually avoid loosing more than 1 or 2 units until you have a big enough ball that upgrades matter more than 2 stalkers waiting for something to attack at the back of your army.
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On August 17 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote:
On topic, If you're going to consider only stalkers vs stalkers in the early game then one might argue that 2 additional stalkers is worth more than either +1/+0 or +0/+1.
Blah, don't ruin this awsome theory-crafting with common sense
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Italy12248 Posts
Im having a pretty hard time vs 1base allins, specifically robo play. Sometimes i even lose to straight up stalker/immortal (with no blink lol) because im bad. So, a few questions which i couldn't really find out from the replays since not many pro's 1base against blink:
1) when should i try to expand, assuming no 4gate ofc?
2) when do i get the robo? I often feel like my first observers come out super late (9 ish minutes), and by then his army is so strong i can't harass, especially if he is still 1basing.
3) when do i tech up to charge, templar and forge upgrades? often i end up being behind in supply because i try to do too much (charge, forge and archives) at the same time, despite being 10 workers up.
4) what's a good stalker count to stop at before going for zealot/archon? Should i go pure stalker until i see his expo for the whole basetrade thing?
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On August 17 2011 06:37 Teoita wrote:
Im having a pretty hard time vs 1base allins, specifically robo play. Sometimes i even lose to straight up stalker/immortal (with no blink lol) because im bad. So, a few questions which i couldn't really find out from the replays since not many pro's 1base against blink:
1) when should i try to expand, assuming no 4gate ofc?
2) when do i get the robo? I often feel like my first observers come out super late (9 ish minutes), and by then his army is so strong i can't harass, especially if he is still 1basing.
3) when do i tech up to charge, templar and forge upgrades? often i end up being behind in supply because i try to do too much (charge, forge and archives) at the same time, despite being 10 workers up.
4) what's a good stalker count to stop at before going for zealot/archon? Should i go pure stalker until i see his expo for the whole basetrade thing?
1) When you're blink stalkers are at the bottom of his ramp being aggressive, and you can tell you cannot just kill him then and there.
2) Generally before you lay down your Expansion, so that you can use the mobility the Obs gives you to get the Expo up safer.
3) If it's close positions, you cannot expand unless he does, so do it first if he doesn't. You get Charge first, then add on the Templar Archives when it doesn't really cut into unit production. Then you should get 300 vespene soon after warping in Zealots to make an Archon. Don't go for the Archon too fast, often times more Stalkers will benefit you than getting a faster Archon.
4) I'd say about even Stalker counts, assuming it's Immortal/Stalker as the opponent's comp. You don't really need more, and you should have more Stalkers until you switch into Zealot/Archon production.
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Italy12248 Posts
On August 17 2011 06:50 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:37 Teoita wrote:
Im having a pretty hard time vs 1base allins, specifically robo play. Sometimes i even lose to straight up stalker/immortal (with no blink lol) because im bad. So, a few questions which i couldn't really find out from the replays since not many pro's 1base against blink:
1) when should i try to expand, assuming no 4gate ofc?
2) when do i get the robo? I often feel like my first observers come out super late (9 ish minutes), and by then his army is so strong i can't harass, especially if he is still 1basing.
3) when do i tech up to charge, templar and forge upgrades? often i end up being behind in supply because i try to do too much (charge, forge and archives) at the same time, despite being 10 workers up.
4) what's a good stalker count to stop at before going for zealot/archon? Should i go pure stalker until i see his expo for the whole basetrade thing? 1) When you're blink stalkers are at the bottom of his ramp being aggressive, and you can tell you cannot just kill him then and there. 2) Generally before you lay down your Expansion, so that you can use the mobility the Obs gives you to get the Expo up safer. 3) If it's close positions, you cannot expand unless he does, so do it first if he doesn't. You get Charge first, then add on the Templar Archives when it doesn't really cut into unit production. Then you should get 300 vespene soon after warping in Zealots to make an Archon. Don't go for the Archon too fast, often times more Stalkers will benefit you than getting a faster Archon. 4) I'd say about even Stalker counts, assuming it's Immortal/Stalker as the opponent's comp. You don't really need more, and you should have more Stalkers until you switch into Zealot/Archon production.
Alright, thanks. So it goes: poke first up the ramp and see what i can do; if it seems like i can't kill him, cut units and throw a robo+expo if we are far, or get charge (+robo?) if we are in close positions. Keep making units; add production and tech as money allows.
I was thinking to only stop making stalkers and start teching up the moment i see him expanding since he's obviously not all-inning me and i don't need to think about base trading, or get charge if i see immortals but no support bay, does that make sense?
edit: woops sorry. didn't notice you updated the post.
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On August 17 2011 06:57 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 06:50 CecilSunkure wrote:On August 17 2011 06:37 Teoita wrote:
Im having a pretty hard time vs 1base allins, specifically robo play. Sometimes i even lose to straight up stalker/immortal (with no blink lol) because im bad. So, a few questions which i couldn't really find out from the replays since not many pro's 1base against blink:
1) when should i try to expand, assuming no 4gate ofc?
2) when do i get the robo? I often feel like my first observers come out super late (9 ish minutes), and by then his army is so strong i can't harass, especially if he is still 1basing.
3) when do i tech up to charge, templar and forge upgrades? often i end up being behind in supply because i try to do too much (charge, forge and archives) at the same time, despite being 10 workers up.
4) what's a good stalker count to stop at before going for zealot/archon? Should i go pure stalker until i see his expo for the whole basetrade thing? 1) When you're blink stalkers are at the bottom of his ramp being aggressive, and you can tell you cannot just kill him then and there. 2) Generally before you lay down your Expansion, so that you can use the mobility the Obs gives you to get the Expo up safer. 3) If it's close positions, you cannot expand unless he does, so do it first if he doesn't. You get Charge first, then add on the Templar Archives when it doesn't really cut into unit production. Then you should get 300 vespene soon after warping in Zealots to make an Archon. Don't go for the Archon too fast, often times more Stalkers will benefit you than getting a faster Archon. 4) I'd say about even Stalker counts, assuming it's Immortal/Stalker as the opponent's comp. You don't really need more, and you should have more Stalkers until you switch into Zealot/Archon production. Alright, thanks. So it goes: poke first up the ramp and see what i can do; if it seems like i can't kill him, cut units and throw a robo+expo if we are far, or get charge (+robo?) if we are in close positions. Keep making units; add production and tech as money allows. I was thinking to only stop making stalkers and start teching up the moment i see him expanding since he's obviously not all-inning me and i don't need to think about base trading, or get charge if i see immortals but no support bay, does that make sense?
Did you read the updated OP version? It answered most of what you asked, and I got my answers by looking at it mostly. Especially the section near the top with the cool dot list.
In close pos you can either go for 1 base Blink/Charge/Archon and +1 Attack/Armor, which I feel is really hard to do and risky, or go for a standard Blink base trade. I suggest the base trade, which means Obs + lots of Blink stalkers. If he does expand, expand as far away as you can (not at natural), then proceed into Charge.
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If you didn't make your guides I'd probably still be in platinum league thanks a ton
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Again, really useful guide. Just need to find time for practise....
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Is there a way to determine a good time for adding a late robo? Let's say you use the forge method of early detection, but later you want a robo. (I just lost 3 games in a row to late DTs because I used only cannons). Is there a cue to look for in order to add it?
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On August 24 2011 13:51 Indrium wrote:
Is there a way to determine a good time for adding a late robo? Let's say you use the forge method of early detection, but later you want a robo. (I just lost 3 games in a row to late DTs because I used only cannons). Is there a cue to look for in order to add it?
Yeah I get it once my nat is saturated and I have a good Archon count. Although if DT is on the field, you need it immediately. If you have a cannon up your ramp, I don't really see how DT can kill you. Perhaps you should check out the Tyler VOD in the OP once again?
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On August 24 2011 14:44 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 13:51 Indrium wrote:
Is there a way to determine a good time for adding a late robo? Let's say you use the forge method of early detection, but later you want a robo. (I just lost 3 games in a row to late DTs because I used only cannons). Is there a cue to look for in order to add it? Yeah I get it once my nat is saturated and I have a good Archon count. Although if DT is on the field, you need it immediately. If you have a cannon up your ramp, I don't really see how DT can kill you. Perhaps you should check out the Tyler VOD in the OP once again?
Mixed in with the attack. They snipe the cannon and then my army gets eaten by ~6 DTs and a bunch of other stuff.
Thanks for the help! :D
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I really like this guide, and have been winning a lot more PvP lately. Im playing diamond, rank 10-15 something. I usually go blink into robo, which usually grants me the opportunity to be the aggressive one. But I've had some problems:
When I meet someone who does 3gate Robo and just stays up his ramp waiting for 2-3 colossus/4+ immortals, then I find my own expansion/tech timings hard to decide.
I can usually not go up his ramp with my blink stalkers, I nearly always find that hard. His first immortal get out early and the forcefields usually split my stalkers up somewhat, even with blink. And im a covard.
So I stay below the ramp, expanding, and waiting for him to go down. Then I pick off 2-3 units and blink away, without loosing more than shields. And I repeat that while he advances to my base.
But thats where the problems starts. I often lack either one of these, at the cost of the others: Charge/enough immortals/enough zealots/any archons at all. These timings are so hard. When I go for one of them, I often end up lacking one of the others and falls short in hos push. And my expansion haven't had time to give me that much of an income advantage.
What about these timing? What should I prioritize?
Or - If I cant go up his ramp and try to get an early advantage, then should I not expand at all?
Am I a total noob? (That could be the case, and I should be practising army engagement instead of whining about timings ^^)
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Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate 
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On August 25 2011 17:54 sleepingdog wrote:Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate
The PTR blink change will change the face of PvP. I'm really hoping the 30-sec addition will be reverted after additional PTR testing.
Until then, practicing *basically* the same opening proposed by OP, along with the slightly different 3gates before council (HuK on Metalopolis in GSL Code S, the one where defender lost due to a guardian shield instead of FF). It's just nice to know other people have thought about robo vs. forge and when to mix in those +1 upgrades, get the actual charge, get the archives and first archon, and playstyle against robo into blink. Haphazard getting the charge, ups, and archons wasn't leading to solid PvP midgame after expo beforehand =P Thanks for writeup
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On August 25 2011 18:07 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 17:54 sleepingdog wrote:Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate The PTR blink change will change the face of PvP. I'm really hoping the 30-sec addition will be reverted after additional PTR testing. Until then, practicing *basically* the same opening proposed by OP, along with the slightly different 3gates before council (HuK on Metalopolis in GSL Code S, the one where defender lost due to a guardian shield instead of FF). It's just nice to know other people have thought about robo vs. forge and when to mix in those +1 upgrades, get the actual charge, get the archives and first archon, and playstyle against robo into blink. Haphazard getting the charge, ups, and archons wasn't leading to solid PvP midgame after expo beforehand =P Thanks for writeup
Actually it's not so much the blink research time but the immortal range upgrade. Until now, pure blink stalker vs stalker/immortal was hard but do-able. Now it will be impossible as immortals will always get the first shot off vs the stalker in front.
Maybe I'm a bit exaggerating, but I could imagine that by going straight immortals (one gate robo) you could very well be able to kill a blink player straight up - as he won't be able to use "attack and blink back" to avoid damage.
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On August 25 2011 17:54 sleepingdog wrote:Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate
Dang.
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EPT
