EPTalso now that i'm to the point where i can smoothly go from anti 4-gate mode to anti 1base colossus mode, i'm getting my 13/14 stalkers with blink at around 8:45 and from there just applying constant pressure such as that shown in the youtube video, and it's honestly really scary. i don't see a 1base zealot heavy colossus build (mainly zealots as the colossus takes so much gas) standing a chance against the correct type of blink stalker pressure. you can waste most of the zealots before the colossus even arrives...
[G] Twilight Council PvP - Page 4
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kyarisan
United States347 Posts
also now that i'm to the point where i can smoothly go from anti 4-gate mode to anti 1base colossus mode, i'm getting my 13/14 stalkers with blink at around 8:45 and from there just applying constant pressure such as that shown in the youtube video, and it's honestly really scary. i don't see a 1base zealot heavy colossus build (mainly zealots as the colossus takes so much gas) standing a chance against the correct type of blink stalker pressure. you can waste most of the zealots before the colossus even arrives... | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 02 2011 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote: I can tell you +1 attack makes a large difference in how the Zealots kill everything, and how the Archons splash Zealots. Nony used it against Choya, so I'm assuming it was for a good reason (though he did eventually add on an observer). I believe he wanted it for his first encounter when he had 1 Archon? Yes this is what I meant - I can imagine that you want a forge if you plan to hit a timing where +1 will make a huge difference. Also robo+obs needs considerably more gas than the +1, so you can afford to structure your gas-use more aggressively when you plan on getting forge and cannon for detection. With robo it's probably impossible to hit any early archon + support-timing. Nevertheless I've zero clue about these timings at all - every time I play blink I harass for a pretty long time with stalkers+obs until I have macroed up a decent zealot/archon force. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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ItsDrea
Australia7 Posts
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72842-pool-play-tyler-vs-choya-g1 | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 03 2011 03:59 ItsDrea wrote: I remember watching you working this style out on your stream a couple of days ago, it's a very good build. You also might want to add the MLG link to your sources. + Show Spoiler + http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72842-pool-play-tyler-vs-choya-g1 Wow ItsDrea, that was incredibly helpful! Thank you! | ||
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ItsDrea
Australia7 Posts
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InVerno
258 Posts
Btw... Against a robo build (1gate-robo in my mind).. instead of stopping out of the ramp (i dont like to blink up in cooldown against zelot\sentry) can be viable another "tech-mix" like twilight-stargate? To get vision and avoid the ramp, to lift up immortals and just win? | ||
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Vexin
Romania84 Posts
On August 03 2011 17:49 InVerno wrote: Nice write up, really. Btw... Against a robo build (1gate-robo in my mind).. instead of stopping out of the ramp (i dont like to blink up in cooldown against zelot\sentry) can be viable another "tech-mix" like twilight-stargate? To get vision and avoid the ramp, to lift up immortals and just win? Alternatively you can research Hallucination although 100gas + 100 for the sentry can be too much. | ||
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Thugtronik
New Zealand452 Posts
i suppose i need to add in some immortals? do you make the immortals focus the colossus or get them to focus down stalkers so that your chargelots can get on top of the colossus faster? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Please let me know if anything is confusing in the OP! | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
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Sprog
New Zealand83 Posts
Cheers | ||
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goaga
Romania36 Posts
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FederigoEU
Germany50 Posts
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Timeh
Netherlands6 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On July 31 2011 09:58 CecilSunkure wrote: Research Charge followed by +1 attack (or armor, armor better early on, attack better in the long run), cut Stalker production. This makes no sense at all to me. Every single unit in the pvp matchup benefits way more from the attack than the armor upgrade. Please enlighten me in which case the armor upgrade would benefit you more early on. note: Even in a stalker vs zealot fight your stalkers benefit more from having +1 attack (thereby doing 11 instead of 10dmg -> +10% dps) than being able to be 1/6 more durable vs zealots (due to getting 2 less dmg because of the double hit) on their hp and the same on shields. So even in the case of an unmicroed stalker (you should never let your stalkers just stand still and get shredded by zealots) if you combine shields+hp together the stalker would be better of doing 11 instead of 10dmg. I'm just noting this, because I even already heard casters bring this example up (but they are often wrong, like you need exactly 6 sentries to ff a ramp infinitely without energy-buildup and not 4-5 like most believe or casters like to say without actually testing/calculating it. I personally have been doing non-colossus pvp for a long while, relying purely on twilight tech and I'm always getting attack straight up to +3 (if you fight units like immortals/colossus etc armor won't help much unlike vs gateway units), as well as your archons for instance won't benefit at all from armor upgrades. In pure gateway unit battles getting +1armor after having researched +1 attack is a valid alternative due to the lower cost (that's the only reason). However, once you take other units into account as well, you get way more out of your attack upgrades in this matchup despite costing already 75% more for the next level (+2 attack compared to +1armor). | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 13 2011 21:56 Fairwell wrote: This makes no sense at all to me. Every single unit in the pvp matchup benefits way more from the attack than the armor upgrade. Please enlighten me in which case the armor upgrade would benefit you more early on. note: Even in a stalker vs zealot fight your stalkers benefit more from having +1 attack (thereby doing 11 instead of 10dmg -> +10% dps) than being able to be 1/6 more durable vs zealots (due to getting 2 less dmg because of the double hit) on their hp and the same on shields. So even in the case of an unmicroed stalker (you should never let your stalkers just stand still and get shredded by zealots) if you combine shields+hp together the stalker would be better of doing 11 instead of 10dmg. I'm just noting this, because I even already heard casters bring this example up (but they are often wrong, like you need exactly 6 sentries to ff a ramp infinitely without energy-buildup and not 4-5 like most believe or casters like to say without actually testing/calculating it. I personally have been doing non-colossus pvp for a long while, relying purely on twilight tech and I'm always getting attack straight up to +3 (if you fight units like immortals/colossus etc armor won't help much unlike vs gateway units), as well as your archons for instance won't benefit at all from armor upgrades. In pure gateway unit battles getting +1armor after having researched +1 attack is a valid alternative due to the lower cost (that's the only reason). However, once you take other units into account as well, you get way more out of your attack upgrades in this matchup despite costing already 75% more for the next level (+2 attack compared to +1armor). I heard Day9 say it quite a few times, and same with Nony. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On August 14 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote: I heard Day9 say it quite a few times, and same with Nony. I remember Day9 mention it in his dailys, nevertheless even people like day9 sometimes just tell what they "feel is right" and didn't actually test it. I also heard day9 explain the other daily that 4-5 sentries can infinitely ff a ramp, but you need 6 (if you calculate it or try it actually out). Often times experienced people just say what their game sense tells them (like with ff you usually have already quite some energy buildup so that in a match you can ff a ramp for like 2-3min straight until you run out of energy, so you won't ever need 6 ...). Same here, I did quite a lot of testing in the unit tester as well as calculated the amount of hits it takes. So unless I missed something attack first in pvp is always better. | ||
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ohellooo
United States6 Posts
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Volka
Argentina412 Posts
On August 13 2011 21:56 Fairwell wrote: This makes no sense at all to me. Every single unit in the pvp matchup benefits way more from the attack than the armor upgrade. Please enlighten me in which case the armor upgrade would benefit you more early on. note: Even in a stalker vs zealot fight your stalkers benefit more from having +1 attack (thereby doing 11 instead of 10dmg -> +10% dps) than being able to be 1/6 more durable vs zealots (due to getting 2 less dmg because of the double hit) on their hp and the same on shields. So even in the case of an unmicroed stalker (you should never let your stalkers just stand still and get shredded by zealots) if you combine shields+hp together the stalker would be better of doing 11 instead of 10dmg. I'm just noting this, because I even already heard casters bring this example up (but they are often wrong, like you need exactly 6 sentries to ff a ramp infinitely without energy-buildup and not 4-5 like most believe or casters like to say without actually testing/calculating it. I personally have been doing non-colossus pvp for a long while, relying purely on twilight tech and I'm always getting attack straight up to +3 (if you fight units like immortals/colossus etc armor won't help much unlike vs gateway units), as well as your archons for instance won't benefit at all from armor upgrades. In pure gateway unit battles getting +1armor after having researched +1 attack is a valid alternative due to the lower cost (that's the only reason). However, once you take other units into account as well, you get way more out of your attack upgrades in this matchup despite costing already 75% more for the next level (+2 attack compared to +1armor). Well, if you do the math, you'll find that armor gives you the most benefit (just a little bit at first, but it snowballs with +2A and +3A). However, this is considering NO SHIELDS, which is kinda of unrealistc. So yeah, I'm leaning towards +1 Weapons first. Stil still, there should be some exceptional cases in which you'd prefer to have +1A, for example Zealot vs Zealot battles. Here is a chart with the math: http://www.starsite.com.ar/foro/download/file.php?id=56 | ||
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