[G] Twilight Council PvP

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 00:58 GMT

Twilight PvP - [ 3rd Draft ]

Changelist (Oldest to Newest Descending order):

◕Reworked the entire Game Flow list!
◕Rewrote most of the Game Plan section.
◕Created a youtube video of me detailing this style between HerO and AliveFan!
◕Other minor clarifications and changes.
◕Clarified expansion timings!
◕Reworked Game Flow list. - New!
◕Removed most information about Forge before Robo. - New!
◕Rewrote most of the Game Plan section. - New!
◕Updated engagement notes. - New!

Overview
I'm finally confident that a completely viable way to play PvP is now with Twilight tech. For the longest time you'd see one of three things: 1) Blink [into base trade if vs Robo]*; 2) 4 Gate; 3) Robo. *Blink would go into a Robo transition if the game went on long enough, or into a base trade. I have yet to see a common Stargate focused mid-game, and Templar tech for the longest time was rather cheesy and risky. However with the new Archon range buff and Massive buff, Twilight tech is a completely viable option for mid-game!

I've developed most of the information here through trial and error, as it's just really hard to get replays of professional Protoss trying new things out. However in the below spoiler detail about a player who won a game with Twilight Toss. As such you might want to take what is here with a grain of salt, and expect the Twilight tech path standard to change over time as reactions/strategies are refined.

Generally the game flow you want is like this:

Opening build, survive any aggression and/or be the aggressor. Ultimately you both come out even and then choose tech. This is where you lay down the Twilight Council.
Blink finishes -> go try to kill them! Against a 3 Gate Robo, your chance to kill them is before 2 Immortals are out.
Detection. You will either get a Robo (Observers) or Forge.
- Forge + Cannons for Detection. A single cannon is all that is needed if you have good mechanics. If not, lay down 2. If you're sure he does not have DT tech, skip the Cannon.
  - Research Charge followed by +1 attack (or armor, armor better early on, attack better in the long run), cut Stalker production.
  - Expand behind your Blink Stalker pressure, leave your warping in Zealots near your Natural Expansion.
  - Place Templar Archives after Charge is researched, and follow up with Archons whenever you have the vespene.
- Robotics Facility for Observers
  - Use your Robotics Facility and Observers with extreme mobility. Expand behind this if opponent does not have Blink. Expand if you get an advantage in any situation at this point.
  - Research Charge. Be sure not to do this too early! It takes practice with a unit tester to find out what sort of army can beat what sort of army. Against Robo armies with Colossus in them (around 1-3 Colossus), you only need enough Stalkers to 3 shot Colossus. Against Blink Stalker/Immortal you need a whole lot more Stalkers before going into Chargelot/Archon (about 30).
  - Place Templar Archives. You will now switch into Chargelot/Archon/Immortal!
+1 Attack (if not yet researched, and if no Forge get one for the +1 Attack!).
Archon + Blink Stalker + Zealot + Sentry (Guardian Shield). Immortals should be added for population efficiency.

You should be able to see why I've dubbed this Twilight PvP! You use up all your tech access with the Twilight council, instead of a Robo-centric army composition. It should be noted that there are two styles I am aware of: 1) Robotics Facility before Blink. This uses Immortals to take an expansion at the Natural and press a Blinking player away from you. Follow up with Blink Stalkers as the Natural Expansion is taken; 2) Blink aggression off of 3 Gates, followed by either a Forge or a Robotics facility. The Forge allows for a faster armor or attack upgrade, although a Robitics facility grants access to Observers for insane Blink mobility, along with the very pop-efficient Immortals. The Forge also allows you to get Archons out faster, as you can allocate your vespene into an aggressive timing earlier on than with a Robotics.

Note: I don't think anyone really goes for Forge before Robo anymore due to the extreme necessity of Observers because of the ramp vision change! Since I've seen no replays of Forge + Blink, it's basically a stagnant strategy (I'm not even using it, I go for Obs).

Choose Opening
There isn't necessarily a single opening that is best, but I have my own triple Stalker variant modified from YongHwa's play I usually run in PvP. Most notably Liquid`Tyler beat ChoyaFou with a twilight tech path, only using a Robotics Facility for Observers. He opened with a defensive 4 Gate and immediately obtained Blink the moment he realised a 4 Gate wasn't going to come from Choya.
I'll share my opening with you all as an example:

Standard Pylon -> Gateway -> Assimilator -> Pylon -> Cybernetics Core
If you chrono twice and 13 Gate, you have enough minerals to get either a Zealot or an Assimilator before your second Gateway. I suggest an Assimilator (as it requires no supply and prevents a gas steal).
Second Gateway @50%-75% Cybernetics Core
Stalker + WG Research @ 100% Cybernetics Core
Pylon
2 Stalkers (Chrono'd) @100% Second Gateway
Send 3 Probes to mine on second Assimilator
Gateway
Depending on opponent's presence, order 2 more Stalkers or place a Twilight Council.*
*If he's 4 Gating, you'll want to order 2 more Stalkers followed by another Gate. If you for some reason with your triple Stalkers kill off a couple enemy Stalkers, you can actually get a Twilight council instead of another Gateway. You just have to keep your Stalkers alive, and keep the opponent's Stalker count low. This is often times possible because your Stalkers can pick off a stray Stalker, or take down an enemy Stalker warping in.

+ Show Spoiler [3 Stalker Video] +

The Overall Game Plan (the Build)
You can either get Blink then Robotics Facility or Forge, or Robotics Facility then Twilight Council. Blink then Forge is uncommon these days, so I won't talk about it anymore. I've had trouble getting it to work, and moved onto fast Obs.

I usually have Blink finish just at 8 minutes. This is often times too late for you to kill an opponent that went for Robo tech and has sat up their ramp all game. If however you perhaps held off a 4 Gate, then you should immediately try to kill your opponent (assuming you have a lead) when Blink finishes. Either way, you need to have your Blink Stalkers at the bottom of your opponent's ramp once it finishes, and this will allow you to get your Observer -which is where the real fun begins.

An Observer should be constructed the moment you realize you cannot kill your opponent shortly after Blink finishes. The faster your observer, the faster you can expand. This is because once you have an Observer on the map an opponent without Blink cannot take their Natural Expansion easily at all. You can blink into your opponent's main and snipe buildings, then blink back out if the opponent has a slower army. Due to this, you can effectively expand safely while delaying or punishing an expansion from your opponent, for a significant amount of time.

Applying Blink Pressure while Expanding!

If the opponent went for Gateways + Robo for Immortal, then he'll likely go for either Colossus tech, or Blink + Immortals. Against Colossus tech you simply delay their expansion and abuse your mobility by blinking into their bases, while expanding yourself. If the opponent tries to Colossus allin you off of one base, simply Blink into their base as they leave! You will have the advantage in a base trade.

Against Blink + Immortals, you can either Blink + Immortal yourself, or go for Charge + Blink. I've played successfully with both, and I prefer Blink + Charge due to higher mobility. The key to winning a battle against Blink + Immortal with Blink + Charge is to get a good engagement. You want to slam Zealots into his Immortals first, and you don't want your Stalkers to be shot by his Immortals. This means a lot of the time I don't send in my Chargelots to the battle until after the battle starts. This is important! Imagine your opponent with a ball of Blink Stalkers. Your Zealots will run up, and all the Stalker will begin firing at your Zealots all at once, and then they'll die. After that all you have is a bunch of naked Stalkers and your Zealots won't have killed anything. When you engage, you want the Zealots to run in once both of the armies form more of two parallel lines. This is because when this happens, his Immortals will be more exposed, and not all of his Stalkers will be firing at your Zealots while your Stalkers are still behind!

Blinking up the ramp with a Blink into Obs style!

If you went Robotics First, you'll definitely need Blink (or charge) to match your opponent's mobility. Once you take your natural you need to lay down a Twilight Council and up your Stalker count. You should be expecting your opponent to be abusing Blink + Observers to try to pick things off or catch your army out of position. Be prepared for this, as you'll have less Stalkers for a good amount of time. Once your Stalker count matches the opponents, or somewhere close, you want to make the switch into your next tech of choice. It's highly common for the next tech of choice to be Colossus tech. Colossus + Blink is a really strong composition! The idea behind Blink into Colossus is to delay whatever your opponent is doing as long as possible (or punish them if they expand too fast), while teching to Colossus. Once your Colossus count is up to 3+, you can hold off the likely push coming from the opponent with an equal army value. Another option is to go into Chargelot/Immortal/Archon, which is super badass and fun to play compared to Colossus tech.

It's my understanding that Blink Stalker Chargelot Immortal Archon > Colossus Stalker Sentry Zealot. If Colossus aren't in play, Immortals are probably going to be pretty unnecessary. Assuming your opponent went for Immortal/Blink Stalker (which I feel is the strongest option against Blink Stalker), a strong timing attack can be dealt once they try to start adding on Colossus, with your Chargelot/Archon/Blink Stalker army. Just don't engage up a ramp.

The biggest problem I've had in PvP going with Twilight Protoss is when the opponent gets out 5+ Colossus. When this happens they seem to dominate the ground too heavily and sorta negate your Zealots from the battle. You must engage an army of 5+ Colossus in a very open area, or you just won't be able to kill the army off.

Personally I like to add in Storm for late game to blanket the enemy in insane DPS, followed by a morphing of Archons that come into battle near the end. I also like to add in a group of voidrays late game into my army to start focusing down Colossus once a battle starts, as they take down Colossus so so fast. However how good either of these ideas are has no backing or sources, as it's just my own opinion.

Notes for Engagements
If your army consists of Blink Stalker/Chargelot, you're most likely going to be up against Immortal/Blink Stalker. Although often times opponents will not get Blink, and perhaps go for DT or start Colossus Tech (I think Blink is the best option for the opponent at this point [Source, Set 5]). You want your Zealots to charge in and slam into his Immortals. This will not only kill them, but up the probability that an Immortal will start shooting a Zealot instead of a Stalker. Against Blink/Immortal it's important to engage properly. This will take some practice, go to a unit tester map! Imagine your opponent with a ball of Blink Stalkers. Your Zealots will run up, and all the Stalker will begin firing at your Zealots all at once, and then they'll die. After that all you have is a bunch of naked Stalkers and your Zealots won't have killed anything. When you engage, you want the Zealots to run in once both of the armies form more of two parallel lines. This is because when this happens, his Immortals will be more exposed, and not all of his Stalkers will be firing at your Zealots while your Stalkers are still behind!

Once you have your Archons, you want them spread about your army so that Force Fields can do absolutely nothing. If all your Archons are on one side of your army, the other side can be potentially devestated by Force Fields, as you really need a good surface area for your Zealots. Your Archons are also going to want to target enemy Zealots first, as they do plus damage to bio, and the small collision radius of Zealots makes Splash all the better. Archons murder Zealots.

In the event you don't need Immortals, you more than likely have an idle robo. Make use of it and get a Warp prism! Use it to drop off some Zealots into mineral lines during engagements, or just before. Warp in behind your army to reinforce in the battle. Anything! Just use the Warp Prism to your advantage. It only costs 200 minerals (2 Zealots), but can easily be used to grant much much more than 2 Zealots into key areas at key times. I've even loaded it up with Immortals and dropped them onto Colossus during large battles.

The Opposing Viewpoint
I currently feel the best reaction to Blink Stalker, if you have a Robo up, is to get Immortal/Blink Stalker. Immortals will win you a direct engagement, but your own rabble of Blink Stalkers grants you mobility equal to the opponent. The idea behind this timing is that just as Blink finishes you engage down your ramp with your Immortals/Sentry/Zealot, and Blink down the ramp with your Stalkers. If your natural expansion is choky, you can often times just trap all enemy Stalkers with your own, and force them to blink over you, thusly wasting a blink and allowing the rest of your forces down the ramp.

While you chase the enemy Blink Stalkers with your own + Immortals, the enemy Protoss will either have to lose a lot of Stalkers just running from you, or they will engage you when you Blink chase. This isn't very bad for you, as this should allow your Immortals to come into range and deal more damage than the opponent's higher Blink Stalker count can dish out to your smaller Blink Stalker pursuers. The goal is to kill as many opposing Blink Stalkers as possible, while taking your Natural Expansion. From here I'm not very sure of what to do, as I'm usually on the other side of the battle, but what seems most dangerous is DT tech into Archons, or DT tech + Colossus. The Colossus seem risky as if the opponent attacks your Natural before you get a critical mass it seems the opponent's Archon/Chargelot/Blink Stalker will beat you, though the DT tech beforehand allows you to harass the oppponent's side of the map rather freely.

Sources/Examples

Set 5 - The famous IMYongHwa 3 Stalker opening. This is my source to show that Immortal/Blink Stalker beats Blink Stalker during mid-game.
Tyler vs ChoyaFou - MLG Anahiem. Tyler loses some Stalkers to the Immortal/Blink timing, but survives and crushes the offense of Choya with Charge/Blink timing defense. Tyler follows this up with a timing attack of Chargelot/Archon/Blink against Archon/Zealot/One Colossus. The timing hit before Choya could get a few Colossus out, so Tyler had more Zealots and more splash dealers to kill opposing Zealots. Yes I used the word timing a lot just now, but honestly these are all timings, as the result of each battle is heavily dependent on when a tech or research finishes.
CecilSunkure vs CCalms - Bnet. This game was close pos Shattered Temple, and I came out on top. It was very close, but what won the game was the combination of +1 attack for my Zealots, and my Archons tanking SO much damage. I feel if the opponent is pushing you like CCalms did this game, the Archon is pivotal for the engagement. +1 attack I know helps tremendously as well.
Squirtle vs Hero - GSTL Set 1. Squirtle uses Immortal/Archon/Chargelot/Blink against Blink/Zealot/Colossus to great affect. The immortals seem pivotal against Blink/Colossus.
Liquid`HerO replay pack! - Watch all of these replays honestly they all rock... The one in particular to watch is HerO vs AliveFan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2koIkKrAByE
Video analysis of HerO explaining a style of Twilight PvP!
CecilSunkure Vs Ladder Dude - Blink Allin vs Immortal Expand

More to come as I get in touch with my PvP practice buddies and find more pro games!

MrRicewife

Canada515 Posts

July 31 2011 01:09 GMT

mod edit
User was warned for this post

eFonSG

United States255 Posts

July 31 2011 01:13 GMT

Another great guide! I cant wait to have some structure in my twilight play in PvP. Thanks a lot!

Hybris

United States185 Posts

July 31 2011 01:20 GMT

I've been doing chargelot archon for most of my PvP's that go to two base. I usually open similarly to you do (blink stalkers), but I especially like the additions you have mentioned like the +1 attack upgrade as well as the timing on the robo. My only concern about this style is how it fares in a later game against a ton of collossi. I know that ideally you want to end the game before mass colossus is out on the field (I mean like 7-8), but sometimes that just isn't possible.

I feel like if you don't kill your opponent before he gets a CM of colossus, assuming he is going the mass colossus route, then you will be in a ton of trouble; however, I do love this style in the midgame due to the fact that you have insane mobility as well as a strong standing army that won't just die to a colossus player.

happyness

United States2400 Posts

July 31 2011 01:22 GMT

Nice to see a *real* guide in the strategy forums. I've been doing roughly the same thing for PvP but this should help me refine it a lot!

Bartimaeus

United States67 Posts

July 31 2011 02:35 GMT

A very nice and well-thought out guide, especially appreciated as PvP is a very volatile matchup and seeing a clear picture of an entire game through one strategy writeup is rare . . . and I also thought about twilight at first lol.

As for constructive criticism, a replay of a pro doing this would be very helpful if you could find one, but other than that it looks great to me. Is there any point in time where you would add 3 or 4 HTs with storm? As a small part of a maxed army I don't see why a tiny sprinkling of storm wouldn't be effective - most people, until this becomes popular, wouldn't move out of it as storm is highly underestimated in PvP.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 03:00 GMT

On July 31 2011 11:35 Bartimaues wrote:
As for constructive criticism, a replay of a pro doing this would be very helpful if you could find one, but other than that it looks great to me. Is there any point in time where you would add 3 or 4 HTs with storm? As a small part of a maxed army I don't see why a tiny sprinkling of storm wouldn't be effective - most people, until this becomes popular, wouldn't move out of it as storm is highly underestimated in PvP.

I'm definitely working on that. I'll have a VOD of that one pro player as detailed in the OP in the spoiler, asap.

Amui

Canada10567 Posts

July 31 2011 03:01 GMT

I feel like immortals are a fairly good supplement to a twilight player against colossi. You should usually win the chargelot/archon war, and then immortals clean up quite well if they don't get focused down, and if colossi focus them, it's very good for your army. I do have a replay somewhere of me going chargelot archon immortal, and taking down a 6 colossus army. I'll edit it in if I can find it.

Salivanth

Australia1071 Posts

July 31 2011 03:06 GMT

You're awesome Cecil, love reading your guides. I already use your 3-Gate aggressive expand PvT, and since I've recently started using Geiko's 3-gate PvP that is supposed to transition into Blink Stalker, this guide is invaluable.

lowkontrast

United States855 Posts

July 31 2011 03:18 GMT

#10

+ Show Spoiler [MLG spoilers] +

Is this what Tyler did against Choya?

User was warned for this post

SCPlato

United States249 Posts

July 31 2011 03:24 GMT

#11

Always impressed by your write ups. Well done.

-XSV-

United States23 Posts

July 31 2011 03:36 GMT

#12

Great write up! Can't wait to try it out!

ranjutan

United States636 Posts

July 31 2011 03:58 GMT

#13

Sick write-up. I usually play this style in PvP on large maps (except tal'darim T_T) and only rarely find myself losing games I feel like I should have won. The only losses come against players who just mass colossi and match me in expansions. Once there are, like, 10 colossi with gateway support only the perfect arc can win the fight for me. Recently I have started dropping double stargates once on 3 bases (stolen from Minigun's stream ^_^) against this style. Even if the mass voidrays aren't a surprise, the combination of voidrays and zeal/stalker/archon is incredibly strong against any response you'd expect, like mass blink stalkers or even counter air.
Also this style is very fun to play, especially when both players are willing to play a macro game

Netherlands12045 Posts

July 31 2011 04:06 GMT

#14

you need to edit: 1st stalker after 100%core, not gate
also need to add when to research wrap tech? are you skipping it?
+ Show Spoiler +

over all the build is exactly NonY vs Choya game 2 on shakuras where nony 4 gate vs a 3 gate 2 gas choya (choya 13 gate). even though choya execution was not totally perfect but its pretty hard to stop a 4 gate using this build

TheAlchemist89

160 Posts

July 31 2011 04:26 GMT

#15

This is a great guide, can't wait to see it evolve. Although I'm at a way lower skill than you, I have also been looking to expand on the Archon/charge/blink composition as it feels really darn strong... my only problem so far has been if I let my opponent get too many colo's as you very clearly stated.

Great guide!

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 04:55 GMT

#16

On July 31 2011 13:06 NB wrote:
you need to edit: 1st stalker after 100%core, not gate
also need to add when to research wrap tech? are you skipping it?
+ Show Spoiler +

It's always assumed that WG is researched as Core finishes, but I will clarify that.

Also yes, it is the exact same thing Nony did! I was really excited to see Nony do exactly what I've been working out myself (except he had worked in +1 attack).

Arisen

United States2382 Posts

July 31 2011 04:59 GMT

#17

great job again. Protoss players are lucky to have such an active top level player as Cecil to bring good information to the table so often.

caradoc

Canada3022 Posts

July 31 2011 05:35 GMT

#18

yeah, the tyler choya game was really eye-opening. I'll definitely be trying this style.

ZeromuS

Canada13386 Posts

July 31 2011 05:35 GMT

#19

Awesome guide I have only skimmed it as it is late and MLG is on but I look forward to reading this in detail and learning the build inside out

Anfi

Russian Federation63 Posts

July 31 2011 05:54 GMT

#20

If your opponent answers your zealot / archon tech with a lot of colossus, a possibly viable strategy is to put down a double stargate and chrono out void rays.
5 colossus is a 30 food investment, comparable with ±8 void rays.

A void ray basically doubles the dps of a corruptor against massive targets, and has a bit more health / shields. Throw in an extra air attack upgrade while getting the voids and the colossus will die very very fast. Think about 2 seconds for 8 void rays per colossus before the charge-up.

Even just trading 2 void rays for 1 colossus is advantageous, because then you can mop up the remaining stalkers with your chargelot / archon force. It is pretty much the same way zergs use corruptors against colossus.

GomJabbar

United States161 Posts

July 31 2011 06:04 GMT

#21

What's your opinion on twilight -> robo versus robo -> twilight? Personally, I've felt that going robo first is safer against blink and DT openings, and against a robo opening you can just go into chargelot archon really fast after the robo. Twilight first allows you to be aggressive, take map control early, and kill a bad player, but against a player going blink or robo it doesn't seem to set you up for a big advantage. I guess it sets you up for a faster expansion against robo players, is that the real goal?

I'm really curious about this situation you mention where you go for the nexus and charge while containing a robo build. The opponent attacks you with immortal+blink stalkers, and you have a (very recent, not payed for itself yet) nexus, a bunch of blink stalkers that are less effective now against the immortals, and a handful of zealots (with all the minerals spent on the nexus I don't see how you could have a lot of zealots). An opponent opening robo himself will also have a handful of zealots, and it seems like just a few sentries in that army would potentially win the engagement since you won't have archons yet. But that's really just my feeling; I really want to watch the Tyler - Choya game, unfortunately I missed it. I get the feeling that it may be an evolution of the immortal+blink timing against a fast blink contain, to start getting a few sentries just to prevent chargelots from being too effective. I'm just theorycrafting though until I play around with it.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 06:19 GMT

#22

On July 31 2011 15:04 GomJabbar wrote:
What's your opinion on twilight -> robo versus robo -> twilight? Personally, I've felt that going robo first is safer against blink and DT openings, and against a robo opening you can just go into chargelot archon really fast after the robo. Twilight first allows you to be aggressive, take map control early, and kill a bad player, but against a player going blink or robo it doesn't seem to set you up for a big advantage. I guess it sets you up for a faster expansion against robo players, is that the real goal?

I'm really curious about this situation you mention where you go for the nexus and charge while containing a robo build. The opponent attacks you with immortal+blink stalkers, and you have a (very recent, not payed for itself yet) nexus, a bunch of blink stalkers that are less effective now against the immortals, and a handful of zealots (with all the minerals spent on the nexus I don't see how you could have a lot of zealots). An opponent opening robo himself will also have a handful of zealots, and it seems like just a few sentries in that army would potentially win the engagement since you won't have archons yet. But that's really just my feeling; I really want to watch the Tyler - Choya game, unfortunately I missed it. I get the feeling that it may be an evolution of the immortal+blink timing against a fast blink contain, to start getting a few sentries just to prevent chargelots from being too effective. I'm just theorycrafting though until I play around with it.

Going Twilight first lets you get Blink and Charge fast enough to combat Blink + Immortals. Otherwise it's too slow and you're better off just getting Colossus.

As for the Expansion, if the opponent attacks too early, you can cancel your Nexus, as why would they attack cross map with Immortal + Blink if they were expanding. I hope that answers your questions!

BoondockVeritas

United States191 Posts

July 31 2011 06:46 GMT

#23

oh noooo you've given away my pvp tech of choice that i've been using cecil! i like all your posts but this is too far

as for being constructive now so i don't get warned or anything.. in my nooby experience with this even if you are as aggressive as possible and get your money army going, if the enemy is turtling semi hard and won't budge while he makes the 5+ colossi, blink stalkers with an observer to snipe buildings has bought me time as most other protoss will sit near their expo thinking the main is safe enough. also some blink stalkers usually gives enough map control that you can expand freely enough since you will still need greater numbers to beat the turtler. just basic common sense stuff, but i thought i'd throw it in for fun with the other peoples ideas since i like cecils posts ^^

kineSiS-

Korea (South)1068 Posts

July 31 2011 07:06 GMT

#24

I'm not assured that a well done DT rush wouldn't destroy this build.

Assuming that the opponent denies scouting and goes 3 gate into Dark Templar while cutting probes.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 07:08 GMT

#25

On July 31 2011 16:06 kineSiS- wrote:
I'm not assured that a well done DT rush wouldn't destroy this build.

Assuming that the opponent denies scouting and goes 3 gate into Dark Templar while cutting probes.

The forge timing can always deviate, I should probably note of this in the OP. Also, if there's high suspicion of DT in my games, I actually get 2 cannons, and a sentry before I move out to FF the DT on the ramp to buy more time.

Though like I did say in the OP, DT is going to be the biggest threat at the earlier points of mid-game.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 07:14 GMT

#26

Updated the OP and added in a youtube video of me explaining my thought process behind my own Triple Stalker opening variant!

kineSiS-

Korea (South)1068 Posts

July 31 2011 07:30 GMT

#27

On July 31 2011 16:08 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

I realize that you did mention that, as I wouldn't comment without reading. That would ignorant and further remarks that I would make would probably be invalid. However, if reacting to Dark Templar highly depend on game sense, in essence, it could possibly be easy to dupe a lower level player (Masters/Diamond) by making it seem like he would either be 1, mirroring you or going for a 3 gate robo.

I mean, it seems very risky as putting 2 cannons inside your main is a costly investment.

Perhaps we could try this out? (Depending on your server)

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 07:38 GMT

#28

On July 31 2011 16:30 kineSiS- wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah it would be pretty hard to get down the timing to survive from DT tech at first. I still die to it pretty often. Yeah we can play sometime. Shoot me a PM, I have a korean account and NA account.

Harmonized

57 Posts

July 31 2011 07:44 GMT

#29

Amazing guide! Was a real pleasure to read

About the troubling amount of collosi i thought of an idea[Theorycrafting],
What if you would drop another robo and a robo bay once on 3 bases, start chronoing out immortals +
Warp prisms AND get the warp prism speed?

So the idea is that you might have like 8 immortals 2 warp prisms when he has 7-8 collosi and you engage with half the immortals in your army and the other ones you drop on the collosi?

Does this seem valid?
Please argue :>

Netherlands12045 Posts

July 31 2011 08:02 GMT

#30

i still dont understand how you holding 4 gates with 6 stalkers while on 3 gates... 4 gates always came with 6 stalkers 1 zealot... assuming u might delay it by your first 4 stalkers, 4 gate still out produce 3 gate for the first 2 wave in general... im quite sure there are a sentry there somewhere.......

Sweetness.751

United States225 Posts

July 31 2011 08:18 GMT

#31

I favor Twilight Tech heavily in my PvPs as well.

To answer the question about how to deal with turtling toss that goes heavy Colossus. The best way is to expand to the farthest base on your half of the map (assuming 4 player map). So that would be the main that is either close by air or close by ground depending on which is farther from your opponent and slightly closer to you. That way if he decides to push and attack, you can effectively base race (since you are spread out) by targeting his Nexus and as many supporting structures as possible. Once he decides to go for your other base, you pull back and surround with the superior gateway army that you have been warping in at your expo plus rallied blink stalkers.

Drowsy

United States4876 Posts

July 31 2011 08:25 GMT

#32

Awesome guide. For some reason i've been trapped in the paradigm that you can't defend a 4 gate using a 3 stalker rush *unless* you follow up with a robo+ immortal. Obviously I was wrong, just keep building stalkers and get a twilight obv.

iamke55

United States2806 Posts

July 31 2011 08:27 GMT

#33

On July 31 2011 10:09 MrRicewife wrote:
[image loading]

Sick guide. I thought it was something else at first.

Changed the title. What now?

Tyrek

12 Posts

July 31 2011 08:35 GMT

#34

Could you explain the way in which you engage different builds?

Generally, I'm thinking about how this would combat the various robo builds, especially when both play defensive builds, such as 3 stalker rush into robo. At the standard engagement timings, the robo ball will have 1-2 colossus, possibly an immortal. How does the twilight build engage into this? I currently feel that if both players tech up, the robo player has a slight edge in overall army strength.

.Enigma

United Kingdom116 Posts

July 31 2011 09:06 GMT

#35

Great guide! I open with blink in almost all my PvPs but struggle immensely against robo, so I'll definitely give this style a shot. I really like how the defensive forge is used to get +1 quickly.

I do have some doubts about the 3 stalker opening though, which I'm hoping you can clear up.
The opening is 13 gate > no zealot > non-chronoed stalker. How does this deal with 12 gate > zealot > chronoed stalker into standard 4gate if the zealot is rallied to your base at a reasonably short rush distance (~Xel-naga or shorter)? Although you may force the zealot back from your ramp, you won't be able to deny the proxy pylons at all (from my experience anyway), and provided your opponent doesn't suicide his first 2 stalkers he's in a strong spot since his WG will finish at least 10-15 seconds faster.
I watched through your vid and I think you excecuted your build perfectly, whereas your opponent wasn't quite perfect. It feels like with optimal execution on both sides, the 3 stalker build should lose every time. Maybe I'm missing something, let me know if I am!

monk

United States8476 Posts

July 31 2011 12:40 GMT

#36

I have a robo twilight guide coming up later today. Be prepared.

Oh and I'd like to add that I probably have more experience with more of the late game scenarios you might find with this build, so you can check that out in my guide too. A lot of the information in both guides also overlaps.

I also want to disagree that robo into twilight is definitively better than a blink stalker opening. Although I think this is true 99% of the time, but if you make a read on a large map and go a very fast nexus with a blink build, you can wind up ahead of a robo/blink player. You do this by delaying your opponent's push with your superior blink stalker count so your econ advantage kicks in and you can get some immortals of your own out. An example of this is Huk vs MC in GSL on xelnaga fortress. Xelnaga fortress isn't even that big of a map.

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

July 31 2011 14:05 GMT

#37

The only thing I don't like about the structure of your build is the forge - I just don't see why you'd want a forge ever when going aggressive blink. Because even IF he goes for DTs, defending with cannons means you completely lose mapcontrol. For all you know he could double expand and play pure chargelot/archon off 15 gates.

If you go for a safe blink build I think it's absolutely necessary to get a robo afterwards pretty quickly. Not only are you safe against DTs but you can also blink in and out of your opponents base and be annoying. If you've made sure your opponent is going colossi, you can start charge-tech and drop both the expo and later on the archives. I don't think building a forge is useful unless the game goes into even later stages.

JonnyLaw

United States3482 Posts

July 31 2011 14:13 GMT

#38

Cecil great guide again.

I played around with this build earlier and what are you doing against 1 base colossus? Do you expand, cut out the stalkers and get archon/chargelot and keep the stalker count where it was during the contain phase?

Also, when are you getting templar archives for archons? Play it by ear?

I ask because I lost a game earlier where my opponent pushed with 2 colossus. I had my natural up with a few chargelots, one archon and a decent little stalker ball. My zealots just ended up melting wayyyy to fast. More archons and good blink micro I think I can hold but my econ was just kicking in as he pushed.

*edit sleepingdog makes a good point about the forge vs robo. if they go dt and you have an obs you can baserace and win easily

Xahhk

Canada540 Posts

July 31 2011 14:45 GMT

#39

Do you suggest expanding in a far off corner? I keep seeing guides saying to do that incase of a base race.

unit

United States2621 Posts

July 31 2011 17:00 GMT

#40

On July 31 2011 23:05 sleepingdog wrote:
The only thing I don't like about the structure of your build is the forge - I just don't see why you'd want a forge ever when going aggressive blink. Because even IF he goes for DTs, defending with cannons means you completely lose mapcontrol. For all you know he could double expand and play pure chargelot/archon off 15 gates.

If you go for a safe blink build I think it's absolutely necessary to get a robo afterwards pretty quickly. Not only are you safe against DTs but you can also blink in and out of your opponents base and be annoying. If you've made sure your opponent is going colossi, you can start charge-tech and drop both the expo and later on the archives. I don't think building a forge is useful unless the game goes into even later stages.

if he mirrors you, you can just get +1/+2 attack and then have a massive advantage, also if he double expands off of DT you can simply add a robo + Show Spoiler +

as tyler did vs choya

if he doesnt go DT you dont need the robo and your build is much more streamlined and significantly more powerful, having the robo and an obs added can not only mess with the timings quite a bit but it would also mess with the focus of the build a bit vs robo players...however if the opponent goes DT and you need the robo a useful addition (after you expand and have a ton more gates) would be a warp prism to just warp into his main while his army moves out, essentially furthering the idea of backstabbing him to death to win :D

WightyCity

Canada887 Posts

July 31 2011 17:02 GMT

#41

i love twilighting

Indrium

United States2236 Posts

July 31 2011 17:07 GMT

#42

This is the best Protoss guide on this forum, bar none.

The previous record was also held by Cecil. <3

chaopow

United States556 Posts

July 31 2011 17:19 GMT

#43

Cool build. This is something I've been doing a lot but I wasn't sure if everything was going correctly. Could you put the supply counts for each building? My timings always seem to be a tad bit off and I dont seem to always be able to afford the 2nd gas.

Also, how does this fare against 1 base collosus? Do you just have to go for baserace style, or does your timing hit before a rush to collosus?

Great guide, I just feel like I need a little more clarity, even though I'm masters

Probably because PvP is my worst matchup.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 18:04 GMT

#44

I have the same feeling you do here. I put it in the guide because + Show Spoiler [MLG Spoiler] +

Tyler did it

. I assumed he wanted the +1 attack for some reason, and it dawned on me that it must make your chargelots very very good, and make your Archon help splash Zealots harder. Perhaps it really is better to skip it for a forge, though in the event there are no DT I would prefer to have +1 attack rather than an Observer.

The whole Forge vs Robo thing will probably be clarified in the future.

On August 01 2011 02:19 chaopow wrote:Also, how does this fare against 1 base collosus? Do you just have to go for baserace style, or does your timing hit before a rush to collosus?

What I've done is a baserace almost every time. However if you can get the point where you have Archones/Chargelots/Blink you can probably directly engage (in the open) and win. So, perhaps if you use Observer/Blink to delay the allin as much as you can you can get out a sufficient force to just pummel the Colossis allin as they move towards your base thinking they are king, when you suddenly crush them with your Archons.

czaku

Poland429 Posts

July 31 2011 18:29 GMT

#45

great post, helped me a lot in understanding pvp, THX!

Volka

Argentina408 Posts

July 31 2011 18:59 GMT

#46

Very nice!

Questions:
-Do you still go 3 Stalkers if you see 4gating incoming? In my experiencie against a hard 4gate it's difficult to delay his proxy pylon in time. I prefer defensive 4 gate.

-Could you elaborate more when/where it's a good idea to expand?

-Math says that gateway units benefit a bit more from +1Armor than +1Weapons. Have you tried +1A first?

monk

United States8476 Posts

July 31 2011 19:17 GMT

#47

On August 01 2011 03:59 Volka wrote:
Very nice!

Questions:
-Do you still go 3 Stalkers if you see 4gating incoming? In my experiencie against a hard 4gate it's difficult to delay his proxy pylon in time. I prefer defensive 4 gate.

-Could you elaborate more when/where it's a good idea to expand?

-Math says that gateway units benefit a bit more from +1Armor than +1Weapons. Have you tried +1A first?

1. 3 stalkers when played correctly will hold of 4 gate.

2. Can't answer for cecil's build

3. That's completely wrong. Versus toss, attack is strictly and significantly better than armor in ever single circumstance.

Mikelius

Germany517 Posts

July 31 2011 22:40 GMT

#48

Are there any maps were this build is less viable? And when should you steer clear from this build depending on what you scout?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

July 31 2011 23:05 GMT

#49

On August 01 2011 07:40 Mikelius wrote:
Are there any maps were this build is less viable? And when should you steer clear from this build depending on what you scout?

It is definitely harder to use Blink on close positions, before a Robo. It will also be more effective on maps with a harder to defend Natural, and maps with less chokes, since a lot of your units are short-ranged.

MrGingerKid

United States63 Posts

July 31 2011 23:22 GMT

#50

Wow great guide Cecil. I'm a diamond level protoss looking for some ways to change up my PvP, because I'm so inconsistent in this MU. I thought your 3 stalker opening video was really good and I look forward to using this on ladder. Thanks a lot!

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 01 2011 03:52 GMT

#51

I went over to 4kmonk's guide (which is pretty similar to mine actually) and stole one of his sources! Nah it's actually a VOD I looked for for a couple hours before I gave up on the search. Added it into the OP.

http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl3/vod/65330 Set 1 - Squirtle vs Hero

Ravomat

Germany422 Posts

August 01 2011 04:28 GMT

#52

I like to play reactive whenever possible even in PvP so I'd like to know what scouting information would make you abandon your original gameplan and go for this build instead?

When do you expand?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 01 2011 06:42 GMT

#53

On August 01 2011 13:28 Ravomat wrote:
I like to play reactive whenever possible even in PvP so I'd like to know what scouting information would make you abandon your original gameplan and go for this build instead?

When do you expand?

Seeing what is up their ramp is a huge indication of what's going on usually. Also their chrono usage is important to take note of early on. Less chrono saved = more likely to tech to something. Just Zealot/Sentry up the ramp is likely a Robotics facility. A strange lack of units above the ramp with mostly Zealot/Sentry is likely to be DT rush. Lots of Stalkers early game is almost definitely Blink.

You can expand whenever you get a contain at the bottom of the enemy ramp, or you gain an advantage somehow. Since I like Blink a lot, I'd expand sometime while I'm at the bottom of the enemy ramp, then likely start researching charge followed by a lot of Zealots + Templar Archives.

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

August 01 2011 09:00 GMT

#54

On August 01 2011 03:04 CecilSunkure wrote:
The whole Forge vs Robo thing will probably be clarified in the future.

After spending some more time thinking about it, it probably depends hugely on your first scouting tells and your general gameplan.
Because robo for obs inevitably puts you up for a longer game, as you spend tons of ressources on stuff that actually does zero dps lol.

Nevertheless I never play blink on maps/positions where it's easy to finish games early on (easy in a PvP sense...), which is why obs has always been the best option for me. Going forge for quick + 1 chargelot/archon is probably better if you plan to do some midgame timing attack....purely speculating though, since I don't have any experience with that.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 01 2011 17:20 GMT

#55

On August 01 2011 18:00 sleepingdog wrote:

Show nested quote +

I can tell you +1 attack makes a large difference in how the Zealots kill everything, and how the Archons splash Zealots. Nony used it against Choya, so I'm assuming it was for a good reason (though he did eventually add on an observer). I believe he wanted it for his first encounter when he had 1 Archon?

CryMore

United States497 Posts

August 01 2011 17:23 GMT

#56

I think robo versus forge also has a TON to due with the map. For example, a map like shattered temple favors a forge because you can easily cover all entry points to your natural with one well placed cannon. On xel'naga, this is much harder to accomplish, i.e. you can't cover both your natural mineral line AND your ramp to the main.

Also, the advantage of robo is to deny your opponent hovering an obs over your army, and to abuse cliffs. Anytime your opponent makes a 2nd obs is 1 less potential immortal. I think if you want to play defensively, it is a good idea to make the forge and get that +1 put you ahead for the mid game. Otherwise, an aggressive player with excellent stalker control can really abuse the observer and get lots of free units/plyons/tech structures.

bankai

362 Posts

August 02 2011 02:30 GMT

#57

On July 31 2011 17:25 Drowsy wrote:
Awesome guide. For some reason i've been trapped in the paradigm that you can't defend a 4 gate using a 3 stalker rush *unless* you follow up with a robo+ immortal. Obviously I was wrong, just keep building stalkers and get a twilight obv.

First of all, I think this is an awesome guide. Its always good to hear there are ways other than 4 gating out there!!

On this comment, I also really want to know the answer. Absolutely not trying to disagree with it - clearly after watching Cecil's replay it can be done. But my honest feeling was that the 4 gater opponent did not seem to push strong and hard with the typical 6 stalker 1 zealot (followed by the 2nd warp-in of more zealots/stalkers) you would expect from a 4 gate.

In Cecil's other guide on the imyonghwa 3 stalker robo, I thought the Robo + Immortal was absolutely key to pushing back a bigger opponent stalker count, and also the chrono'ed sentry to split their army up. Im just guessing, but did your 3 gate twilight opening defend the 4 gate because u spent that 1 chrono on WG tech instead of the 1st stalker (which you do in your other guide)? So by having WG tech up a bit faster, thats how you can defend a 4 gate?

So my concerns are:
1) How does this build fare against opponent who 4 gates (12 gate, 1 zealot, 1 stalker (CB'ed))?
2) How would you adjust this build against opponents who simply chrono zealots (say 13 gate/15gate) since you dont CB your 1st stalker?
3) How does this compare against the imyonghwa 3 stalker robo? Is it that this build is better on maps with open chokes, and the imyonghwa build is better on maps with close positions/ramp?

But again, really nice guide, just thinking through what im reading

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 02 2011 03:04 GMT

#58

On August 02 2011 11:30 bankai wrote:

Show nested quote +

1) It will put you ahead as long as you don't lose any of your initial 3 Stalkers, and either press Pylons away from your base or kills off a couple enemy units.
2) You can just kite kite kite all day against Zealots. I've beaten a Korean 4 Gate with this opening and some clever probe micro.
3) The IMYongHwa 3 Stalker Robo is a lot safer, and mine cuts corners. I think it's necessary to cut those corners, since WG comes later and there's little reason not to. Basically YongHwa's opening is a bit outdated due to being pre-patch. The underlying idea and build is the same, just with some refinement.

bankai

362 Posts

August 02 2011 03:17 GMT

#59

On August 02 2011 12:04 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

ohhh no please dont say IMYongHwa build is outdated - i've been learning it as a new ladder build for the last few weeks

On Q2, if they do go with heavy zealot pushes early on, how do you micro your probes?? I been rushed by about 5zealots when I had my 3 stalkers up, and they send 3 zealots chasing my stalkers, while the other 2 zealots go decimate my probe line

Should I keep chrono'ing stalkers from the 3 gates we already have or instead build a forge/cannon instead of the 3rd gate? That way, we still can follow the build order since we planned on getting the forge up later anyway??

unit

United States2621 Posts

August 02 2011 04:22 GMT

#60

ty for the guide, ive been using it to great success recently in mid/high masters (opponents mostly around 1.7k masters last season) PvP however there is one problem i have and have had and that is the 2colossus timing push (no range) at around 9-10 minutes which seems to just crush through as he has an immortal which wrecks all the stalkers i blink in to kill his colossi and my chargelot archon just melts without being able to kill nearly enough

kyarisan

United States347 Posts

August 02 2011 09:35 GMT

#61

wow, this build is so strong! i've never seen a build that has been able to crush 4gate so easily while also being able to stay very near the timings of faster, greedier twilight council openers. it took me a few matches to get the feel for the troop movement habits and not to forget the timings of any units, but i've absolutely CRUSHED 4gates with this build, the moment you take the shields off of their one stalker in the 1s1z pairing, you've pretty much come out ahead in both unit count and tech, if not threatening to straight up win the game with a counter attack depending on positions.

also now that i'm to the point where i can smoothly go from anti 4-gate mode to anti 1base colossus mode, i'm getting my 13/14 stalkers with blink at around 8:45 and from there just applying constant pressure such as that shown in the youtube video, and it's honestly really scary. i don't see a 1base zealot heavy colossus build (mainly zealots as the colossus takes so much gas) standing a chance against the correct type of blink stalker pressure. you can waste most of the zealots before the colossus even arrives...

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

August 02 2011 10:00 GMT

#62

On August 02 2011 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes this is what I meant - I can imagine that you want a forge if you plan to hit a timing where +1 will make a huge difference. Also robo+obs needs considerably more gas than the +1, so you can afford to structure your gas-use more aggressively when you plan on getting forge and cannon for detection.

With robo it's probably impossible to hit any early archon + support-timing.

Nevertheless I've zero clue about these timings at all - every time I play blink I harass for a pretty long time with stalkers+obs until I have macroed up a decent zealot/archon force.

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

August 02 2011 12:51 GMT

#63

Holy crap thank you soooooooooo very much. I dislike pvp because every time it goes to the mid-game, it feels like im improvising a build and i have no clue what to do, plus it's really really hard to find pro players with a 2 base pvp build; im usually a robo guy but this guide helps my understanding of the matchup so very much. You sire are awesome!!!

ItsDrea

Australia7 Posts

August 02 2011 18:59 GMT

#64

I remember watching you working this style out on your stream a couple of days ago, it's a very good build. You also might want to add the MLG link to your sources. + Show Spoiler +

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72842-pool-play-tyler-vs-choya-g1

It seems he moves out with the +1 attack with heavy zealot composition to gain map control mid game and pokes to check the opponents expansion, while also finishing a robo to get obs so he has mobile detection for him to expand himself. I feel that these are some key tactics for this build to be successful

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 02 2011 19:00 GMT

#65

On August 03 2011 03:59 ItsDrea wrote:
I remember watching you working this style out on your stream a couple of days ago, it's a very good build. You also might want to add the MLG link to your sources. + Show Spoiler +

http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/72842-pool-play-tyler-vs-choya-g1

Wow ItsDrea, that was incredibly helpful! Thank you!

ItsDrea

Australia7 Posts

August 02 2011 19:27 GMT

#66

Thank you for the writeup, looks like one of the most stable ways to play PvP at the moment. it almost seems like a shame you're giving away such valuable information, but it helps the community a lot :D

InVerno

258 Posts

August 03 2011 08:49 GMT

#67

Nice write up, really.

Btw... Against a robo build (1gate-robo in my mind).. instead of stopping out of the ramp (i dont like to blink up in cooldown against zelot\sentry) can be viable another "tech-mix" like twilight-stargate? To get vision and avoid the ramp, to lift up immortals and just win?

Vexin

Romania84 Posts

August 03 2011 16:19 GMT

#68

On August 03 2011 17:49 InVerno wrote:
Nice write up, really.

Btw... Against a robo build (1gate-robo in my mind).. instead of stopping out of the ramp (i dont like to blink up in cooldown against zelot\sentry) can be viable another "tech-mix" like twilight-stargate? To get vision and avoid the ramp, to lift up immortals and just win?

Alternatively you can research Hallucination although 100gas + 100 for the sentry can be too much.

Thugtronik

New Zealand452 Posts

August 04 2011 04:53 GMT

#69

i really like this style and been trying it out on ladder but i keep getting owned by colossus in the mid-late game. with my chargelot blink stalker archon ball im getting crushed by a zealot stalker colossus composition with 1-2 immortals in it. ive tried adding in a few void rays but they arent killing the colossus fast enough and my ground army evaporates and his stalkers then clean up my voids. do i have to avoid engaging until i've got at least 5-6 voids?

i suppose i need to add in some immortals? do you make the immortals focus the colossus or get them to focus down stalkers so that your chargelots can get on top of the colossus faster?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 13 2011 07:46 GMT

#70

I've made major updates to the OP! I've included more sources, and re-written a lot of things. Check out the changelist in the OP as well!

Please let me know if anything is confusing in the OP!

monk

United States8476 Posts

August 13 2011 08:07 GMT

#71

Should probably take out all the mlg spoilers.

Sprog

New Zealand83 Posts

August 13 2011 08:10 GMT

#72

Thanks for this Cecil, I appreciate the efforts you go to.

Cheers

goaga

Romania36 Posts

August 13 2011 09:04 GMT

#73

Very nice guide. It helps me a lot, thank you!

FederigoEU

Germany50 Posts

August 13 2011 12:21 GMT

#74

I love you Cecil , thanks alot ! Your guides are always so well writen and always helped me out alot !

Timeh

Netherlands6 Posts

August 13 2011 12:49 GMT

#75

Good Guide i was using the blink presure while expanding allready =) keep the good work up!!

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

August 13 2011 12:56 GMT

#76

On July 31 2011 09:58 CecilSunkure wrote:
Research Charge followed by +1 attack (or armor, armor better early on, attack better in the long run), cut Stalker production.

This makes no sense at all to me. Every single unit in the pvp matchup benefits way more from the attack than the armor upgrade. Please enlighten me in which case the armor upgrade would benefit you more early on.

note: Even in a stalker vs zealot fight your stalkers benefit more from having +1 attack (thereby doing 11 instead of 10dmg -> +10% dps) than being able to be 1/6 more durable vs zealots (due to getting 2 less dmg because of the double hit) on their hp and the same on shields. So even in the case of an unmicroed stalker (you should never let your stalkers just stand still and get shredded by zealots) if you combine shields+hp together the stalker would be better of doing 11 instead of 10dmg. I'm just noting this, because I even already heard casters bring this example up (but they are often wrong, like you need exactly 6 sentries to ff a ramp infinitely without energy-buildup and not 4-5 like most believe or casters like to say without actually testing/calculating it.

I personally have been doing non-colossus pvp for a long while, relying purely on twilight tech and I'm always getting attack straight up to +3 (if you fight units like immortals/colossus etc armor won't help much unlike vs gateway units), as well as your archons for instance won't benefit at all from armor upgrades. In pure gateway unit battles getting +1armor after having researched +1 attack is a valid alternative due to the lower cost (that's the only reason). However, once you take other units into account as well, you get way more out of your attack upgrades in this matchup despite costing already 75% more for the next level (+2 attack compared to +1armor).

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 13 2011 18:18 GMT

#77

On August 13 2011 21:56 Fairwell wrote:

Show nested quote +

I heard Day9 say it quite a few times, and same with Nony.

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

August 13 2011 18:50 GMT

#78

On August 14 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:
I heard Day9 say it quite a few times, and same with Nony.

I remember Day9 mention it in his dailys, nevertheless even people like day9 sometimes just tell what they "feel is right" and didn't actually test it. I also heard day9 explain the other daily that 4-5 sentries can infinitely ff a ramp, but you need 6 (if you calculate it or try it actually out). Often times experienced people just say what their game sense tells them (like with ff you usually have already quite some energy buildup so that in a match you can ff a ramp for like 2-3min straight until you run out of energy, so you won't ever need 6 ...).

Same here, I did quite a lot of testing in the unit tester as well as calculated the amount of hits it takes. So unless I missed something attack first in pvp is always better.

ohellooo

United States6 Posts

August 14 2011 01:46 GMT

#79

ah neat thank you

Volka

Argentina408 Posts

August 14 2011 02:15 GMT

#80

On August 13 2011 21:56 Fairwell wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well, if you do the math, you'll find that armor gives you the most benefit (just a little bit at first, but it snowballs with +2A and +3A). However, this is considering NO SHIELDS, which is kinda of unrealistc.
So yeah, I'm leaning towards +1 Weapons first. Stil still, there should be some exceptional cases in which you'd prefer to have +1A, for example Zealot vs Zealot battles.

Here is a chart with the math: http://www.starsite.com.ar/foro/download/file.php?id=56

ZAiNs

United Kingdom6525 Posts

August 14 2011 02:19 GMT

#81

On August 14 2011 03:18 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

I heard Day9 say it quite a few times, and same with Nony.

On the latest SotG Day9 says that he thinks armor is better, but Tyler says attack is better because your aim is to break their Gateway units ASAP so you can attack the vulnerable Colossi, has Tyler changed his opinion since then?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 14 2011 02:52 GMT

#82

On August 14 2011 11:19 ZAiNs wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think he said that attack is better in the long run once you start getting more upgrades.

Janders

Mexico222 Posts

August 14 2011 03:54 GMT

#83

argh! blink stalkers so annoying in good hands if u have the apm to do it i feel like blink stalkers is the best thing u can do in pvp early mid game

Janders

Mexico222 Posts

August 14 2011 03:57 GMT

#84

On August 14 2011 11:19 ZAiNs wrote:

Show nested quote +

i think it depends on the army composition tyler goes for zelot archon and attack is so much better for that because if you let the colossus attack the zelots for enough times they will evaporate and zelots and archons both get a lot of damage for every damage upgrade

AxelTVx

Canada916 Posts

August 14 2011 14:42 GMT

#85

No Tyler said that Armor would be better in the short term, but in the long run, because he already had a twilight council, the +2 attack would have been better than a 1/1 or 0/2.

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

August 14 2011 15:32 GMT

#86

On August 14 2011 11:15 Volka wrote:
Well, if you do the math, you'll find that armor gives you the most benefit (just a little bit at first, but it snowballs with +2A and +3A). However, this is considering NO SHIELDS, which is kinda of unrealistc.
So yeah, I'm leaning towards +1 Weapons first. Stil still, there should be some exceptional cases in which you'd prefer to have +1A, for example Zealot vs Zealot battles.

Here is a chart with the math: http://www.starsite.com.ar/foro/download/file.php?id=56

This chart only takes hp (no shields) into account. So again since several people here like to quite day9 as well as LiquidTyler as a reference what they said (i heard them say it for myself), the best way to approach something like that is either doing the maths (which I did, so unless I made a mistake I should be right) or you can just go to the unit tester and just test it (like zealot with armor vs zealot without upgrades, zealot with attack vs zealot without upgrades, zealot with armor vs zealot with damage upgrade).

In the case stated above (zealot vs zealot), yes getting the first armor upgrade would be better (because your zealots survive 1/6 longer -> 16.66% longer instead of donig 1/7 more damage ->14.28% more damage) if you only take hp into account, but once you calculate shields into that equation attack always win. However, if you start comparing this with other units like stalkers or sentries attack gets even stronger in comparison as well as for power units like immortals/archons/colossus).
In our small example of letting one zealot with +1 attack fight one zealot with +1 armor, the zealot with the attack upgrade wins and has 4hp left. Attack starts to scale tremendously well with more units and especially for your other units that have more shields compared to the zealot in comparision to armor upgrades.

In order to cancel the effect of +1 attack in pvp your opponent needs to get +1armor AND +1 shields or even +2/+2 or more (for units like colossus etc).

ad snowball effect: This so-called "snowball-effect" of course this has to be taken care of if you think about which upgrades to get after getting any +1 upgrade (quite popular here is the big influence of the +2armor upgrade instead of +1 attack in pvt vs marines right after your +1 armor finished, especially when your opponent didn't get +1 attack for his marines yet since those percentages decrease way more ever time you get another upgrade ahead).

Despite all these observations, I was sitting down and thought a while about what day9/tyler might have been referring to and I think that I may have found that point. If (and only if) you could play a pvp match with mostly zealots on both sides and you get up to +3armor and your opponent does not get any attack upgrades at all (not really an advantage for +2 here, pretty small one), then your units are better in the fight in comparision to +3 attack for about 16% (side note: You need to calculate the amount of hits it takes for both units without and with those upgrades, derive their percentages of effectiveness increase and then compare these numbers again; attention: these numbers may change slightly if you just do the math with pure numbers instead of calculating hits, then it might not be 16%).
But, and this is the really important thing: +1 armor instead of getting +1 attack is always worth (just to to the unit tester and try it out for yourself if you don't bother to do that much math). So this scenario from above is extremely unlikely. It would require a long enough pvp match in order to provide you with enough time to get up to +3 armor AND your opponent is not getting attack upgrades himself to cancel out your armor upgrades at all (+1 would cancel basically this whole effect already until you reach +3 armor) AND you only use zealots (for stalkers/sentries attack is way way more effective and if we talk about power units like archons/immortals/colossus it's really far from being close).

Conclusion: If one of these conditions is not met, get attack upgrades. However, if you out of whatever reason do find yourself in such a situation ever, feel free and go ahead and get those armor upgrades. I personally would not recommend them ever before getting attack in pvp though.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 15 2011 16:07 GMT

#87

On August 15 2011 00:32 Fairwell wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not sure exactly what conditions you were talking about. It was my understanding that Day9/Tyler were under the consensus that a +1 armor while the other guy has no upgrades is best if you plan to end the game right there. Attack however is better if you plan on playing long enough to have +2/+3 attack in there as well.

mordek

United States12704 Posts

August 15 2011 16:27 GMT

#88

So well organized and explained. Someone give this man a star!

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

August 15 2011 19:44 GMT

#89

On August 16 2011 01:07 CecilSunkure wrote:
Not sure exactly what conditions you were talking about. It was my understanding that Day9/Tyler were under the consensus that a +1 armor while the other guy has no upgrades is best if you plan to end the game right there. Attack however is better if you plan on playing long enough to have +2/+3 attack in there as well.

I did understand exactly what you were referring to. However, my testing and maths on this subject did conform however, that in exactly this circumstance you had just described +1 attack is better. No matter how much I love day9 for myself, I think he is simply is simply wrong in this regard.

I recommend you go into unit tester and test it out for yourself. :-)

Volka

Argentina408 Posts

August 15 2011 20:37 GMT

#90

Yeah, testing with the unit tester map, the only scenario which +1A is better than +1W is Stalkers vs Stalkers battles.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 15 2011 20:52 GMT

#91

On August 16 2011 04:44 Fairwell wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying your post was confusing. You said "under these conditions", and I said I don't know what conditions you're referring to o.o

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

August 15 2011 21:36 GMT

#92

On August 16 2011 05:52 CecilSunkure wrote:
I'm not disagreeing, I'm saying your post was confusing. You said "under these conditions", and I said I don't know what conditions you're referring to o.o

Ah haha, thought it was obvious that i was referring to the paragraph right above my sentence, namely this part:

"It would require a long enough pvp match in order to provide you with enough time to get up to +3 armor AND your opponent is not getting attack upgrades himself to cancel out your armor upgrades at all (+1 would cancel basically this whole effect already until you reach +3 armor) AND you only use zealots (for stalkers/sentries attack is way way more effective and if we talk about power units like archons/immortals/colossus it's really far from being close). "

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

August 16 2011 05:42 GMT

#93

On August 16 2011 05:37 Volka wrote:
Yeah, testing with the unit tester map, the only scenario which +1A is better than +1W is Stalkers vs Stalkers battles.

What exactly did you test?

A single stalker with +1 attack vs another single stalker with +1 armor is an equal trade (although before they kill each other with the last shot the one with +1 attack has 12 hp compared to the other one with only 7hp left). In bigger numbers it's the same here. However, once you add in other units as well the number of shots is not the only thing counting any more, and these 7hp can be finished of easier with any other unit than 12hp.
If you put testing aside and just think about it, it makes totally sense as well. As long as both sides still have shields left, the stalkers with +1 attack are favored, because they do +1 dmg each shot. On the other hand, once the shields are gone, both take/deal the same amount of dmg each shot, because one has +1 bonus to attack (which is negated by the +1 armor of the other stalker) and vice versa (the other one gets one less dmg each shot but also deals one less).

Since in most matches it's not pure zealots vs zealots or pure stalkers vs stalkers and so on we also have to take into account the percentage increase and not only the number of hits left (like I had mentioned above already). For instance, in a pvz pure zealots with +1 attack 2shot lings without upgrades, 50% faster than without any upgrades. Once you add in some sentries into the back of the zealots though, the difference is way less than 50%, because in many cases those sentries do the last and 3rd shot necessary to finish of lings, which had been hit twice by a zealot beforehand. i.e. lings with only 3 hp left (and sentries do 6dmg a shot).

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 16 2011 05:52 GMT

#94

Just had a pretty funny match where I did a Chargelot/Archon allin, and won! I felt I was behind, and thought I was definitely going to lose, but came out ahead!

http://drop.sc/26984

Animostas

United States568 Posts

August 16 2011 06:10 GMT

#95

I have a lot of problems against someone who gets a few Immortals and then just pushes out straight to my base. This hits just about when Charge is finished and I have like 5 Zealots. I'm assuming I want to go for a base trade in this situation because there's no way my army can beat his in a straight fight; is there anything I should keep in mind while I'm trying to kill his base; such as, what should I do if he rebuilds in my main? Should I hide pylons or make a new nexus somewhere? etc.

AnibalEsmit

Spain9 Posts

August 16 2011 13:06 GMT

#96

On August 15 2011 00:32 Fairwell wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah most casters say +1 armor is better than +1 weapons, mainly because Day9 said so, but I don't think this is right. This calculations tend to forget the shields (they assume +1 armor applies to all hp of the units, thus equaling +1 armor to +1 armor and shields) and they don't think about other implications:

- Range units (Anything except zealots) benefit more from +1 weapons, specially blink stalkers since you don't want to tank with them, just blink the injured ones behind.
- AoE units (Archons and Collosi) benefit much more from +1 weapons. +1 armor doesn't improve the archon at all (only 10 hull points).
- Inmortals get's a huge bonus in damage with the +1 weapons, while +1 armor has only marginal effect.
- Zealots do +1 +1 damage with +1 damage (+2 but with 2 different attacks). +1 armor cancels this when hits are dealing with the hull of the enemy, but the shields are still getting melted faster.

So in MOST situations and unit compositions, I think +1 weapons is just better than +1 armor and is my upgrade of choice. Please let me know where I'm wrong if I am (giving a reasoning, not just stating "Day9 said so", I also love Day9 but he can make mistakes like everyone else).

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

August 16 2011 14:01 GMT

#97

I don't buy this +1 armor is better either.

Mainly because the armor only takes effect if shields are already down. Your +1 damage shows results with the first shot, for the +1 armor to matter you have to "allow" your units to get shields removed in the first place.

Now when I play blink stalkers, my goal is actually to have as few stalkers "injured" as possible. Obviously I'm never able to pull it off perfectly, but ideally I don't want anything else but shield damage when blinking my ball around.

By that logic, shield-upgrade would be the best upgrade in PvP.

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

August 16 2011 15:02 GMT

#98

I can't think of a single reason why you would want to upgrade armor before attack in PvP. Ever. I love day[9] as much anyone else but honestly he's not known for his high level strategical insight in SC2. The only time when it's even arguable that armor is just as good as attack is when you're just talking about zealots, and you'll never have a pure zealot army in PvP.

Just get attack.

Artisian

United States115 Posts

August 16 2011 15:05 GMT

#99

On August 16 2011 23:01 sleepingdog wrote:
I don't buy this +1 armor is better either.

Mainly because the armor only takes effect if shields are already down. Your +1 damage shows results with the first shot, for the +1 armor to matter you have to "allow" your units to get shields removed in the first place.

Armor is better in the sense that your units all take 1 more hit to kill.
zeals take 11 attacks to kill a stalker at 0/0 for each, but if the stalker has +1 armor it takes 12 attacks.
zeals take 11 shots to kill zealots, and 12 with +1 armor defender

stalkers take 12 shots to kill a stalker, and 13 with +1 armor defender
stalkers take 16 shots to kill a zealot, and 17 with +1 armor defender

while with +1 attack, thanks to shield mechanics it doesn't effect stalker vs stalker, which i believe is the most common fight in gateway heavy pvp. Naturally this does assume stuff will die, I suppose if you could win the game with no units taking health damage +1 attack would be better, but since stalkers scale so badly in attack, armor is better for gateway on gateway battles.

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

August 16 2011 15:10 GMT

#100

On August 17 2011 00:05 Artisian wrote:
while with +1 attack, thanks to shield mechanics it doesn't effect stalker vs stalker

What? Please think before you post. That makes no sense at all.

Artisian

United States115 Posts

August 16 2011 15:24 GMT

#101

On August 17 2011 00:10 Anihc wrote:

Show nested quote +

What? Please think before you post. That makes no sense at all.

try it in unit tester. I just did, but here's the math anyway.

80 shields/15 attack (stalker with +1 on stalker) + 80 health/14 attack = 11.04 attacks to kill
80 shields/14 attack (stalker with +0 on stalker) + 80 health/13 attack = 11.86 attacks to kill

attacks to kill round up, so +1 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker is no better than +0 attack on a stalker attacking a stalker, you just have more overkill. shield mechanics tie in because the last hit that breaks the shield is effected by armor, however that doesn't influence this battle, that influences zealot on stalker, my mistake.

rsvp

United States2266 Posts

August 16 2011 15:50 GMT

#102

On August 17 2011 00:24 Artisian wrote:

Show nested quote +

Oh I see what you mean, it takes a 1/0 stalker the same number of hits as an unupgraded 0/0 stalker to kill another stalker. That's a good point, sorry for being mean. Your statement was just really confusing because that has nothing to do at all with shield mechanics though.

I guess if it was just a pure stalker vs stalker fight it's better to have 0/1 stalkers against 0/0 stalkers than 1/0 stalkers. But that relies on so many assumptions/factors that it's still never worth it, such as:

- There are no other units but stalkers involved (on either side). Even if you just throw in a few zealots, or a sentry or immortal, attack becomes favored over armor.

- There is 1 big battle with pure stalker vs pure stalker, and the game is over. Even if you're planning on doing an "all-in" attack, it's very common that multiple battles and skirmishes will still happen, allowing shield to regen and armor to not be in effect as much.

- Your opponent did not get +1 attack. 1/0 stalkers have the advantage over 0/1 stalkers.

Artisian

United States115 Posts

August 16 2011 16:58 GMT

#103

On August 17 2011 00:50 Anihc wrote:

Oh I see what you mean, it takes a 1/0 stalker the same number of hits as an unupgraded 0/0 stalker to kill another stalker. That's a good point, sorry for being mean. Your statement was just really confusing because that has nothing to do at all with shield mechanics though.

I guess if it was just a pure stalker vs stalker fight it's better to have 0/1 stalkers against 0/0 stalkers than 1/0 stalkers. But that relies on so many assumptions/factors that it's still never worth it, such as:

- There are no other units but stalkers involved (on either side). Even if you just throw in a few zealots, or a sentry or immortal, attack becomes favored over armor.

- There is 1 big battle with pure stalker vs pure stalker, and the game is over. Even if you're planning on doing an "all-in" attack, it's very common that multiple battles and skirmishes will still happen, allowing shield to regen and armor to not be in effect as much.

- Your opponent did not get +1 attack. 1/0 stalkers have the advantage over 0/1 stalkers.

Apologies for the misunderstanding, I tend to write in a sort of shorthand.

The reasoning for +1 armor being better than +1 attack being that armor effects every combination of 1 unit on 1 unit positively for whoever has the upgrade, while +1 attack doesn't change stalker vs stalker. in zealot stalker vs zealot stalker, where 1 has a build that allowed him to get either +1 armor or +1 attack, regardless of how it micro's out the armor will always return time for an extra hit from both units, while +1 attack may result in both stalkers killing each other, and your zeal coming out alive with only 10 some odd health.

At the end of a fight, especially in PvP where shields regenerate to give your army more bulk, what matters is how many units of yous survive. what i mean is that a zealot and a stalker that come out of a fight with 5 health each will be 55 and 85 health respectively in the next engagement.

Perhaps the best way i can illustrate this is with a % of change each upgrade makes if it is an advantage over the opponent.
Numbers in spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +

upgrades always on the second unit
Zeal vs stalker with +1 armor takes 12/11 normally lives 109% as long 9% change
Zeal vs stalker with +1 atk. stalk kills in 15/16 normally kills in 93% the time 7% change

Zeal vs zeal with +1 armor takes 12/11 normally lives 109% as long 9% change
Zeal vs zeal with +1 atk kills in 10/11 normally kills in 90.9% the time, 9.1% change

stalker vs zeal with +1 armor takes 18/17 normally lives 105% as long 5% change
stalker vs zeal with +1 atk kills in 10/11 normally kills in 90.9% the time 9.1% change

stalker vs stalker with +1 armor takes 13/12 normally lives 108% as long 8% change
stalker vs stalker with +1 attack takes 12/12 normally kills in 100% the time 0% change

average benefit with +1 armor: 7.7%
average benefit with +1 attack: 6.3%

Note zealots scale better with attack than armor and stalkers scale better with armor than attack, however zealots are melee and thus have a harder time doing any damage at all as numbers increase.
Also note these assume the dps is evenly spread out in time and you can actually do something in that 6% of extra longevity besides wait to die which isn't always the case. In theory 8% of doing something, even being on attack cooldown, is worth more than 6% of the same (especially if the battle ends in that 2% time difference).

The advantage that probably makes +1 attack worth more in general is it kills buildings faster, making it better vs photon cannons and for harass. Armor only preforms better when you are being attacked by something.

Geiko

France1939 Posts

August 16 2011 16:58 GMT

#104

On August 17 2011 00:50 Anihc wrote:

Show nested quote +

Anihc you're so BM ... T.T

On topic, If you're going to consider only stalkers vs stalkers in the early game then one might argue that 2 additional stalkers is worth more than either +1/+0 or +0/+1.

Artisian

United States115 Posts

August 16 2011 17:12 GMT

#105

On August 17 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote:

On topic, If you're going to consider only stalkers vs stalkers in the early game then one might argue that 2 additional stalkers is worth more than either +1/+0 or +0/+1.

The actual assumption is either a slight probe lead for the upgrading player and equal production structures being used roughly the same OR one player teching for something and the other getting a +1 upgrade. You need near equal armies for upgrades to make a difference either way.

Edit: that doesn't fully answer does it? My previous post tries to show how you get more of an advantage from armor than attack with any stalker heavy army. Early game you really shouldn't have any game ending battles unless your vs a 4 gate, your units are as fast as his and you can usually avoid loosing more than 1 or 2 units until you have a big enough ball that upgrades matter more than 2 stalkers waiting for something to attack at the back of your army.

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

August 16 2011 19:44 GMT

#106

On August 17 2011 01:58 Geiko wrote:
On topic, If you're going to consider only stalkers vs stalkers in the early game then one might argue that 2 additional stalkers is worth more than either +1/+0 or +0/+1.

Blah, don't ruin this awsome theory-crafting with common sense

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

August 16 2011 21:37 GMT

#107

Im having a pretty hard time vs 1base allins, specifically robo play. Sometimes i even lose to straight up stalker/immortal (with no blink lol) because im bad. So, a few questions which i couldn't really find out from the replays since not many pro's 1base against blink:
1) when should i try to expand, assuming no 4gate ofc?
2) when do i get the robo? I often feel like my first observers come out super late (9 ish minutes), and by then his army is so strong i can't harass, especially if he is still 1basing.
3) when do i tech up to charge, templar and forge upgrades? often i end up being behind in supply because i try to do too much (charge, forge and archives) at the same time, despite being 10 workers up.
4) what's a good stalker count to stop at before going for zealot/archon? Should i go pure stalker until i see his expo for the whole basetrade thing?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 16 2011 21:50 GMT

#108

On August 17 2011 06:37 Teoita wrote:
Im having a pretty hard time vs 1base allins, specifically robo play. Sometimes i even lose to straight up stalker/immortal (with no blink lol) because im bad. So, a few questions which i couldn't really find out from the replays since not many pro's 1base against blink:
1) when should i try to expand, assuming no 4gate ofc?
2) when do i get the robo? I often feel like my first observers come out super late (9 ish minutes), and by then his army is so strong i can't harass, especially if he is still 1basing.
3) when do i tech up to charge, templar and forge upgrades? often i end up being behind in supply because i try to do too much (charge, forge and archives) at the same time, despite being 10 workers up.
4) what's a good stalker count to stop at before going for zealot/archon? Should i go pure stalker until i see his expo for the whole basetrade thing?

1) When you're blink stalkers are at the bottom of his ramp being aggressive, and you can tell you cannot just kill him then and there.
2) Generally before you lay down your Expansion, so that you can use the mobility the Obs gives you to get the Expo up safer.
3) If it's close positions, you cannot expand unless he does, so do it first if he doesn't. You get Charge first, then add on the Templar Archives when it doesn't really cut into unit production. Then you should get 300 vespene soon after warping in Zealots to make an Archon. Don't go for the Archon too fast, often times more Stalkers will benefit you than getting a faster Archon.
4) I'd say about even Stalker counts, assuming it's Immortal/Stalker as the opponent's comp. You don't really need more, and you should have more Stalkers until you switch into Zealot/Archon production.

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

August 16 2011 21:57 GMT

#109

On August 17 2011 06:50 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Alright, thanks. So it goes: poke first up the ramp and see what i can do; if it seems like i can't kill him, cut units and throw a robo+expo if we are far, or get charge (+robo?) if we are in close positions. Keep making units; add production and tech as money allows.
I was thinking to only stop making stalkers and start teching up the moment i see him expanding since he's obviously not all-inning me and i don't need to think about base trading, or get charge if i see immortals but no support bay, does that make sense?

edit: woops sorry. didn't notice you updated the post.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 16 2011 22:01 GMT

#110

On August 17 2011 06:57 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

Did you read the updated OP version? It answered most of what you asked, and I got my answers by looking at it mostly. Especially the section near the top with the cool dot list.

In close pos you can either go for 1 base Blink/Charge/Archon and +1 Attack/Armor, which I feel is really hard to do and risky, or go for a standard Blink base trade. I suggest the base trade, which means Obs + lots of Blink stalkers. If he does expand, expand as far away as you can (not at natural), then proceed into Charge.

JMC4

United States261 Posts

August 17 2011 03:51 GMT

#111

If you didn't make your guides I'd probably still be in platinum league thanks a ton

Swap

Sweden144 Posts

August 23 2011 11:34 GMT

#112

Again, really useful guide. Just need to find time for practise....

Indrium

United States2236 Posts

August 24 2011 04:51 GMT

#113

Is there a way to determine a good time for adding a late robo? Let's say you use the forge method of early detection, but later you want a robo. (I just lost 3 games in a row to late DTs because I used only cannons). Is there a cue to look for in order to add it?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 24 2011 05:44 GMT

#114

On August 24 2011 13:51 Indrium wrote:
Is there a way to determine a good time for adding a late robo? Let's say you use the forge method of early detection, but later you want a robo. (I just lost 3 games in a row to late DTs because I used only cannons). Is there a cue to look for in order to add it?

Yeah I get it once my nat is saturated and I have a good Archon count. Although if DT is on the field, you need it immediately. If you have a cannon up your ramp, I don't really see how DT can kill you. Perhaps you should check out the Tyler VOD in the OP once again?

Indrium

United States2236 Posts

August 24 2011 08:10 GMT

#115

On August 24 2011 14:44 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Mixed in with the attack. They snipe the cannon and then my army gets eaten by ~6 DTs and a bunch of other stuff.

Thanks for the help! :D

Swap

Sweden144 Posts

August 25 2011 08:33 GMT

#116

I really like this guide, and have been winning a lot more PvP lately. Im playing diamond, rank 10-15 something. I usually go blink into robo, which usually grants me the opportunity to be the aggressive one. But I've had some problems:

When I meet someone who does 3gate Robo and just stays up his ramp waiting for 2-3 colossus/4+ immortals, then I find my own expansion/tech timings hard to decide.

I can usually not go up his ramp with my blink stalkers, I nearly always find that hard. His first immortal get out early and the forcefields usually split my stalkers up somewhat, even with blink. And im a covard.

So I stay below the ramp, expanding, and waiting for him to go down. Then I pick off 2-3 units and blink away, without loosing more than shields. And I repeat that while he advances to my base.

But thats where the problems starts. I often lack either one of these, at the cost of the others: Charge/enough immortals/enough zealots/any archons at all. These timings are so hard. When I go for one of them, I often end up lacking one of the others and falls short in hos push. And my expansion haven't had time to give me that much of an income advantage.

What about these timing? What should I prioritize?
Or - If I cant go up his ramp and try to get an early advantage, then should I not expand at all?
Am I a total noob? (That could be the case, and I should be practising army engagement instead of whining about timings ^^)

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

August 25 2011 08:54 GMT

#117

Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

August 25 2011 09:07 GMT

#118

On August 25 2011 17:54 sleepingdog wrote:
Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate

The PTR blink change will change the face of PvP. I'm really hoping the 30-sec addition will be reverted after additional PTR testing.

Until then, practicing *basically* the same opening proposed by OP, along with the slightly different 3gates before council (HuK on Metalopolis in GSL Code S, the one where defender lost due to a guardian shield instead of FF). It's just nice to know other people have thought about robo vs. forge and when to mix in those +1 upgrades, get the actual charge, get the archives and first archon, and playstyle against robo into blink. Haphazard getting the charge, ups, and archons wasn't leading to solid PvP midgame after expo beforehand =P Thanks for writeup

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

August 25 2011 09:10 GMT

#119

On August 25 2011 18:07 Danglars wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually it's not so much the blink research time but the immortal range upgrade. Until now, pure blink stalker vs stalker/immortal was hard but do-able. Now it will be impossible as immortals will always get the first shot off vs the stalker in front.
Maybe I'm a bit exaggerating, but I could imagine that by going straight immortals (one gate robo) you could very well be able to kill a blink player straight up - as he won't be able to use "attack and blink back" to avoid damage.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 25 2011 10:09 GMT

#120

On August 25 2011 17:54 sleepingdog wrote:
Sorry buddy, but I think this build will be very dead once 1.4 hits - I've already started transitioning to one gate robo 3 gate

Dang.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

August 25 2011 10:16 GMT

#121

On August 25 2011 18:10 sleepingdog wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah you got the point about immortal range. Honestly, I'm still wrapping my mind around not having to micro those slow things in narrow spaces to shoot at what they're supposed to do.

I'm really talking about the attack-with-blink-before-2-immortals bit. I can virtually guarantee that a robo player can kiss a threatening blink attack in that timing goodbye on PTR. We don't really have the chronoboosts necessary to fully lessen the impact of the 30 seconds of blink delay, either.

Midgame yeah you're right on the general playstyle, just as in the wg nerf patch the new archon changes mattered more after WG tech was finished researching.

k3m4

Germany94 Posts

August 25 2011 12:31 GMT

#122

I guess the Blink Stalker opening will be less popular as this 1st attack right when you have blink finished and the opponent almost has his 1st immortal will be less effective cuz with ~30 seconds more he will definitly have his 1st immortal and maybe evenhis second. This means for me i have to get a good robo build and get blink later maybe on 2 bases.

InVerno

258 Posts

August 25 2011 16:28 GMT

#123

Also.. i often blink up the ramp and get vision, simply "pushing" the forcefield..
There's a time window when u get vision (maybe for a bug?)..When i do, there's only 1 immortal (this can change for the blink nerf) and i snipe it. But with the change of the vision on ramps.. i cannot do this anymore.. This can be another reason to avoid blink tech\rush?

quillian

United States318 Posts

August 25 2011 16:42 GMT

#124

Do you ever recommend getting storm with this build? Or does it hurt archon production/other upgrades too much?

I can never tell whether I am getting more mileage out of my templar with storm or as archons.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 25 2011 17:49 GMT

#125

On August 26 2011 01:42 quillian wrote:
Do you ever recommend getting storm with this build? Or does it hurt archon production/other upgrades too much?

I can never tell whether I am getting more mileage out of my templar with storm or as archons.

Late game, go for it. A couple storms should be pretty pop-efficient for a maxed army. Also can morph an archon directly after.

bankai

362 Posts

August 26 2011 02:13 GMT

#126

On August 25 2011 19:09 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Dang.

Doesnt the increased build time for blink and increased immortal range just mean that its better to go 3 stalker robo then blink? I know in the OP, you discuss how the main opening options are robo/blink and blink/robo. So now this just means its best to go robo/blink??

epikAnglory

United States1120 Posts

August 26 2011 02:16 GMT

#127

What I have never understood is why players get Templar Archives over a Dark Shrine in PvP? You really do not use storm that much and the cheaper gas cost of Archons in PvP usually pay up for the higher cost of the Dark Shrine. Feedback is almost useless in this matchup anyways. The only flaw I see is that there is a larger timing window of vulnerability.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 26 2011 04:32 GMT

#128

On August 26 2011 11:13 bankai wrote:

Show nested quote +

idk perhaps. We'll see only when we play on the PTR or wait for the patch to go live.

On August 26 2011 11:16 epikAnglory wrote:
What I have never understood is why players get Templar Archives over a Dark Shrine in PvP? You really do not use storm that much and the cheaper gas cost of Archons in PvP usually pay up for the higher cost of the Dark Shrine. Feedback is almost useless in this matchup anyways. The only flaw I see is that there is a larger timing window of vulnerability.

Think about it. Say you have 300 minerals and 300 vespene gas. You can get 2 Archons and 2 Zealots with that with a Archives. With a Dark Shrine you can get 2 Archons and that's it because you'll have 50/50 left over. It allows an easier time to efficiently spend your resources.

hobbidude

Canada171 Posts

August 31 2011 10:40 GMT

#129

Question:
You mention with your first three stalkers never to loose them when engaging before your opponents 4 gate comes out. Would you still hold that true if you can take out your opponents initial 3 units like 2 stalker/zealot, or stalker/zealot/sentry as well as doing econ damage?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

August 31 2011 20:33 GMT

#130

On August 31 2011 19:40 hobbidude wrote:
Question:
You mention with your first three stalkers never to loose them when engaging before your opponents 4 gate comes out. Would you still hold that true if you can take out your opponents initial 3 units like 2 stalker/zealot, or stalker/zealot/sentry as well as doing econ damage?

Your question is pretty unclear. Can you make it more clear?

iStarKraft

United Kingdom79 Posts

September 18 2011 15:15 GMT

#131

On September 01 2011 05:33 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Your question is pretty unclear. Can you make it more clear?

I think he's asking if it's okay to sacrifice an initial stalker to take out 3 units of your opponent's as well as probes. I can't see a situation to which this applies though.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

September 28 2011 01:40 GMT

#132

CecilSunkure can we get your thoughts on this build / editing OP to include what you think needs to be adjusted in initial blink-finished attacks and blink vs robo? Have you had much time to practice this opening post-patch or have you swapped to another mainstay pvp opening? Much appreciated.

jarhead271

United States160 Posts

September 28 2011 01:54 GMT

#133

Hey, Cecil, why so baller?

Seriously, I steal your builds all the time, and your write ups are the best, hands down. I absolutely love the changelog you added; everyone should be doing that.

TheRealFluid

United States501 Posts

September 28 2011 02:36 GMT

#134

Is the Blink Aggression still viable because of patch?

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

September 28 2011 02:51 GMT

#135

On September 28 2011 11:36 TheRealFluid wrote:
Is the Blink Aggression still viable because of patch?

Yeah it is! I've been doing it. Robo first might be better, I don't know, but I know what I'm doing seems to be fine for me.

On September 28 2011 10:40 Danglars wrote:
CecilSunkure can we get your thoughts on this build / editing OP to include what you think needs to be adjusted in initial blink-finished attacks and blink vs robo? Have you had much time to practice this opening post-patch or have you swapped to another mainstay pvp opening? Much appreciated.

I've practiced a little bit after the patch. All that seems to have changed is that you have to stay a little farther away from Immortals with your Stalkers, and it's near-impossible to kill someone with Blink without an Observer for high ground vision.

On September 28 2011 10:54 jarhead271 wrote:
Hey, Cecil, why so baller?

Seriously, I steal your builds all the time, and your write ups are the best, hands down. I absolutely love the changelog you added; everyone should be doing that.

^_^ <3

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

October 05 2011 21:20 GMT

#136

Updated the OP quite a bit. Robo first is the only way I play this anymore, and I also talked about Blink/Immortal -> Colossus, as this is getting really popular (Immortal portion of this is optional). I have a replay or two to add later, so check back soon to get them!

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

October 10 2011 15:40 GMT

#137

On October 06 2011 06:20 CecilSunkure wrote:
Updated the OP quite a bit. Robo first is the only way I play this anymore, and I also talked about Blink/Immortal -> Colossus, as this is getting really popular (Immortal portion of this is optional). I have a replay or two to add later, so check back soon to get them!

Sorry it took a while, added a replay of me playing on ladder last night. This is how you should be using Blink to punish people doing the ever popular Immortal Expand.

LaM

United States1321 Posts

October 10 2011 16:14 GMT

#138

On October 11 2011 00:40 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Sorry it took a while, added a replay of me playing on ladder last night. This is how you should be using Blink to punish people doing the ever popular Immortal Expand.

Thanks a ton for updating this. I love Twilight council play, but all the robo play lately has been hurting my game

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

October 10 2011 16:58 GMT

#139

On October 11 2011 00:40 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

Sorry it took a while, added a replay of me playing on ladder last night. This is how you should be using Blink to punish people doing the ever popular Immortal Expand.

Would you also allin an immortal expand if you went robo first and made a few immortals? I find that i can hit with blink and about 3 immortals ready right as his nexus finishes at around 9 mins, and that's often enough to overwhelm anyone without blink (if he's going 3gate robo expand; i have never faced an expo as fast as the one in the replay you posted).

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

October 11 2011 02:15 GMT

#140

On October 11 2011 01:58 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

I do not know! Sorry!

Here's a replay to analyze for you guys! See if you can figure out what I did wrong to lose this Blink game: http://drop.sc/42993

+ Show Spoiler [Answers] +

-I was too fast to blink away from the battle when I charged up his ramp with Stalkers. I probably could have picked off a couple Sentries with better control.
-My army was slightly too late to cut him off as he tried to walk down his ramp for the first time. This caused me to lose my change to pick off a free 5-6 Stalkers. Very bad engagement due to this.
-Didn't get up enough gates for my Expo (2 were idle at a key moment), and cancelled my templar archives???

Teoita

Italy12246 Posts

October 11 2011 11:34 GMT

#141

On October 11 2011 11:15 CecilSunkure wrote:

Show nested quote +

I do not know! Sorry!

Here's a replay to analyze for you guys! See if you can figure out what I did wrong to lose this Blink game: http://drop.sc/42993

+ Show Spoiler [Answers] +

+ Show Spoiler +

Since you know he has invested in a forge and lost his expo, which means he isn't going to be aggressive for a while, doesn't it make sense to also expand faster than you did? Despite you killing off his expo, you had a relatively low probe count, with a faster expo you might have had more units to hold off his immortal push.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

October 11 2011 15:57 GMT

#142

On October 11 2011 20:34 Teoita wrote:

Show nested quote +

+ Show Spoiler +

Oh good point! I definitely could have tried to expo faster instead of trying to just kill him, and failing really hard lol.

HexSCII

Canada115 Posts

March 13 2012 02:54 GMT

#143

Is it viable to get a dark shrine rather than a templar archives? I am not sure how strong storm is against deathballs but wouldn't dts allow you to get more map control. I may even cause your opponent to make mistakes from not having enough observers in the map/moving the entire army to deal with dt harass which opens up the blink into main/natural. Heck, if you are smart enough, when you engage, you can snipe their observer and let the dts deal the damage.

Plus, I think that dts would be cheaper on the gas than templars. 50 gas per archon if I am correct.

CecilSunkure

United States2829 Posts

March 13 2012 03:20 GMT

#144

On March 13 2012 11:54 HexSCII wrote:
Is it viable to get a dark shrine rather than a templar archives? I am not sure how strong storm is against deathballs but wouldn't dts allow you to get more map control. I may even cause your opponent to make mistakes from not having enough observers in the map/moving the entire army to deal with dt harass which opens up the blink into main/natural. Heck, if you are smart enough, when you engage, you can snipe their observer and let the dts deal the damage.

Plus, I think that dts would be cheaper on the gas than templars. 50 gas per archon if I am correct.

You should check out my profile and use ctrl + f on "DT".

HexSCII

Canada115 Posts

March 13 2012 03:28 GMT

#145

ahh so sorry xD

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