EPT[G] Twilight Council PvP - Page 3
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
The previous record was also held by Cecil. <3 | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
Also, how does this fare against 1 base collosus? Do you just have to go for baserace style, or does your timing hit before a rush to collosus? Great guide, I just feel like I need a little more clarity, even though I'm masters  Probably because PvP is my worst matchup. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:05 sleepingdog wrote: The only thing I don't like about the structure of your build is the forge - I just don't see why you'd want a forge ever when going aggressive blink. Because even IF he goes for DTs, defending with cannons means you completely lose mapcontrol. For all you know he could double expand and play pure chargelot/archon off 15 gates. If you go for a safe blink build I think it's absolutely necessary to get a robo afterwards pretty quickly. Not only are you safe against DTs but you can also blink in and out of your opponents base and be annoying. If you've made sure your opponent is going colossi, you can start charge-tech and drop both the expo and later on the archives. I don't think building a forge is useful unless the game goes into even later stages. I have the same feeling you do here. I put it in the guide because + Show Spoiler [MLG Spoiler] + Tyler did it The whole Forge vs Robo thing will probably be clarified in the future. On August 01 2011 02:19 chaopow wrote:Also, how does this fare against 1 base collosus? Do you just have to go for baserace style, or does your timing hit before a rush to collosus? What I've done is a baserace almost every time. However if you can get the point where you have Archones/Chargelots/Blink you can probably directly engage (in the open) and win. So, perhaps if you use Observer/Blink to delay the allin as much as you can you can get out a sufficient force to just pummel the Colossis allin as they move towards your base thinking they are king, when you suddenly crush them with your Archons. | ||
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czaku
Poland429 Posts
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Volka
Argentina412 Posts
Questions: -Do you still go 3 Stalkers if you see 4gating incoming? In my experiencie against a hard 4gate it's difficult to delay his proxy pylon in time. I prefer defensive 4 gate. -Could you elaborate more when/where it's a good idea to expand? -Math says that gateway units benefit a bit more from +1Armor than +1Weapons. Have you tried +1A first? | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On August 01 2011 03:59 Volka wrote: Very nice! Questions: -Do you still go 3 Stalkers if you see 4gating incoming? In my experiencie against a hard 4gate it's difficult to delay his proxy pylon in time. I prefer defensive 4 gate. -Could you elaborate more when/where it's a good idea to expand? -Math says that gateway units benefit a bit more from +1Armor than +1Weapons. Have you tried +1A first? 1. 3 stalkers when played correctly will hold of 4 gate. 2. Can't answer for cecil's build 3. That's completely wrong. Versus toss, attack is strictly and significantly better than armor in ever single circumstance. | ||
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 01 2011 07:40 Mikelius wrote: Are there any maps were this build is less viable? And when should you steer clear from this build depending on what you scout? It is definitely harder to use Blink on close positions, before a Robo. It will also be more effective on maps with a harder to defend Natural, and maps with less chokes, since a lot of your units are short-ranged. | ||
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MrGingerKid
United States63 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gstl3/vod/65330 Set 1 - Squirtle vs Hero | ||
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Ravomat
Germany427 Posts
When do you expand? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 01 2011 13:28 Ravomat wrote: I like to play reactive whenever possible even in PvP so I'd like to know what scouting information would make you abandon your original gameplan and go for this build instead? When do you expand? Seeing what is up their ramp is a huge indication of what's going on usually. Also their chrono usage is important to take note of early on. Less chrono saved = more likely to tech to something. Just Zealot/Sentry up the ramp is likely a Robotics facility. A strange lack of units above the ramp with mostly Zealot/Sentry is likely to be DT rush. Lots of Stalkers early game is almost definitely Blink. You can expand whenever you get a contain at the bottom of the enemy ramp, or you gain an advantage somehow. Since I like Blink a lot, I'd expand sometime while I'm at the bottom of the enemy ramp, then likely start researching charge followed by a lot of Zealots + Templar Archives. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 01 2011 03:04 CecilSunkure wrote: The whole Forge vs Robo thing will probably be clarified in the future. After spending some more time thinking about it, it probably depends hugely on your first scouting tells and your general gameplan. Because robo for obs inevitably puts you up for a longer game, as you spend tons of ressources on stuff that actually does zero dps lol. Nevertheless I never play blink on maps/positions where it's easy to finish games early on (easy in a PvP sense...), which is why obs has always been the best option for me. Going forge for quick + 1 chargelot/archon is probably better if you plan to do some midgame timing attack....purely speculating though, since I don't have any experience with that. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 01 2011 18:00 sleepingdog wrote: After spending some more time thinking about it, it probably depends hugely on your first scouting tells and your general gameplan. Because robo for obs inevitably puts you up for a longer game, as you spend tons of ressources on stuff that actually does zero dps lol. Nevertheless I never play blink on maps/positions where it's easy to finish games early on (easy in a PvP sense...), which is why obs has always been the best option for me. Going forge for quick + 1 chargelot/archon is probably better if you plan to do some midgame timing attack....purely speculating though, since I don't have any experience with that. I can tell you +1 attack makes a large difference in how the Zealots kill everything, and how the Archons splash Zealots. Nony used it against Choya, so I'm assuming it was for a good reason (though he did eventually add on an observer). I believe he wanted it for his first encounter when he had 1 Archon? | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
Also, the advantage of robo is to deny your opponent hovering an obs over your army, and to abuse cliffs. Anytime your opponent makes a 2nd obs is 1 less potential immortal. I think if you want to play defensively, it is a good idea to make the forge and get that +1 put you ahead for the mid game. Otherwise, an aggressive player with excellent stalker control can really abuse the observer and get lots of free units/plyons/tech structures. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On July 31 2011 17:25 Drowsy wrote: Awesome guide. For some reason i've been trapped in the paradigm that you can't defend a 4 gate using a 3 stalker rush *unless* you follow up with a robo+ immortal. Obviously I was wrong, just keep building stalkers and get a twilight obv. First of all, I think this is an awesome guide. Its always good to hear there are ways other than 4 gating out there!! On this comment, I also really want to know the answer. Absolutely not trying to disagree with it - clearly after watching Cecil's replay it can be done. But my honest feeling was that the 4 gater opponent did not seem to push strong and hard with the typical 6 stalker 1 zealot (followed by the 2nd warp-in of more zealots/stalkers) you would expect from a 4 gate. In Cecil's other guide on the imyonghwa 3 stalker robo, I thought the Robo + Immortal was absolutely key to pushing back a bigger opponent stalker count, and also the chrono'ed sentry to split their army up. Im just guessing, but did your 3 gate twilight opening defend the 4 gate because u spent that 1 chrono on WG tech instead of the 1st stalker (which you do in your other guide)? So by having WG tech up a bit faster, thats how you can defend a 4 gate? So my concerns are: 1) How does this build fare against opponent who 4 gates (12 gate, 1 zealot, 1 stalker (CB'ed))? 2) How would you adjust this build against opponents who simply chrono zealots (say 13 gate/15gate) since you dont CB your 1st stalker? 3) How does this compare against the imyonghwa 3 stalker robo? Is it that this build is better on maps with open chokes, and the imyonghwa build is better on maps with close positions/ramp? But again, really nice guide, just thinking through what im reading | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On August 02 2011 11:30 bankai wrote: First of all, I think this is an awesome guide. Its always good to hear there are ways other than 4 gating out there!! On this comment, I also really want to know the answer. Absolutely not trying to disagree with it - clearly after watching Cecil's replay it can be done. But my honest feeling was that the 4 gater opponent did not seem to push strong and hard with the typical 6 stalker 1 zealot (followed by the 2nd warp-in of more zealots/stalkers) you would expect from a 4 gate. In Cecil's other guide on the imyonghwa 3 stalker robo, I thought the Robo + Immortal was absolutely key to pushing back a bigger opponent stalker count, and also the chrono'ed sentry to split their army up. Im just guessing, but did your 3 gate twilight opening defend the 4 gate because u spent that 1 chrono on WG tech instead of the 1st stalker (which you do in your other guide)? So by having WG tech up a bit faster, thats how you can defend a 4 gate? So my concerns are: 1) How does this build fare against opponent who 4 gates (12 gate, 1 zealot, 1 stalker (CB'ed))? 2) How would you adjust this build against opponents who simply chrono zealots (say 13 gate/15gate) since you dont CB your 1st stalker? 3) How does this compare against the imyonghwa 3 stalker robo? Is it that this build is better on maps with open chokes, and the imyonghwa build is better on maps with close positions/ramp? But again, really nice guide, just thinking through what im reading 1) It will put you ahead as long as you don't lose any of your initial 3 Stalkers, and either press Pylons away from your base or kills off a couple enemy units. 2) You can just kite kite kite all day against Zealots. I've beaten a Korean 4 Gate with this opening and some clever probe micro. 3) The IMYongHwa 3 Stalker Robo is a lot safer, and mine cuts corners. I think it's necessary to cut those corners, since WG comes later and there's little reason not to. Basically YongHwa's opening is a bit outdated due to being pre-patch. The underlying idea and build is the same, just with some refinement. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On August 02 2011 12:04 CecilSunkure wrote: 1) It will put you ahead as long as you don't lose any of your initial 3 Stalkers, and either press Pylons away from your base or kills off a couple enemy units. 2) You can just kite kite kite all day against Zealots. I've beaten a Korean 4 Gate with this opening and some clever probe micro. 3) The IMYongHwa 3 Stalker Robo is a lot safer, and mine cuts corners. I think it's necessary to cut those corners, since WG comes later and there's little reason not to. Basically YongHwa's opening is a bit outdated due to being pre-patch. The underlying idea and build is the same, just with some refinement. ohhh no please dont say IMYongHwa build is outdated - i've been learning it as a new ladder build for the last few weeks On Q2, if they do go with heavy zealot pushes early on, how do you micro your probes?? I been rushed by about 5zealots when I had my 3 stalkers up, and they send 3 zealots chasing my stalkers, while the other 2 zealots go decimate my probe line  Should I keep chrono'ing stalkers from the 3 gates we already have or instead build a forge/cannon instead of the 3rd gate? That way, we still can follow the build order since we planned on getting the forge up later anyway?? | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
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