EPTI'm really curious about this situation you mention where you go for the nexus and charge while containing a robo build. The opponent attacks you with immortal+blink stalkers, and you have a (very recent, not payed for itself yet) nexus, a bunch of blink stalkers that are less effective now against the immortals, and a handful of zealots (with all the minerals spent on the nexus I don't see how you could have a lot of zealots). An opponent opening robo himself will also have a handful of zealots, and it seems like just a few sentries in that army would potentially win the engagement since you won't have archons yet. But that's really just my feeling; I really want to watch the Tyler - Choya game, unfortunately I missed it. I get the feeling that it may be an evolution of the immortal+blink timing against a fast blink contain, to start getting a few sentries just to prevent chargelots from being too effective. I'm just theorycrafting though until I play around with it.
[G] Twilight Council PvP - Page 2
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GomJabbar
United States161 Posts
I'm really curious about this situation you mention where you go for the nexus and charge while containing a robo build. The opponent attacks you with immortal+blink stalkers, and you have a (very recent, not payed for itself yet) nexus, a bunch of blink stalkers that are less effective now against the immortals, and a handful of zealots (with all the minerals spent on the nexus I don't see how you could have a lot of zealots). An opponent opening robo himself will also have a handful of zealots, and it seems like just a few sentries in that army would potentially win the engagement since you won't have archons yet. But that's really just my feeling; I really want to watch the Tyler - Choya game, unfortunately I missed it. I get the feeling that it may be an evolution of the immortal+blink timing against a fast blink contain, to start getting a few sentries just to prevent chargelots from being too effective. I'm just theorycrafting though until I play around with it. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 31 2011 15:04 GomJabbar wrote: What's your opinion on twilight -> robo versus robo -> twilight? Personally, I've felt that going robo first is safer against blink and DT openings, and against a robo opening you can just go into chargelot archon really fast after the robo. Twilight first allows you to be aggressive, take map control early, and kill a bad player, but against a player going blink or robo it doesn't seem to set you up for a big advantage. I guess it sets you up for a faster expansion against robo players, is that the real goal? I'm really curious about this situation you mention where you go for the nexus and charge while containing a robo build. The opponent attacks you with immortal+blink stalkers, and you have a (very recent, not payed for itself yet) nexus, a bunch of blink stalkers that are less effective now against the immortals, and a handful of zealots (with all the minerals spent on the nexus I don't see how you could have a lot of zealots). An opponent opening robo himself will also have a handful of zealots, and it seems like just a few sentries in that army would potentially win the engagement since you won't have archons yet. But that's really just my feeling; I really want to watch the Tyler - Choya game, unfortunately I missed it. I get the feeling that it may be an evolution of the immortal+blink timing against a fast blink contain, to start getting a few sentries just to prevent chargelots from being too effective. I'm just theorycrafting though until I play around with it. Going Twilight first lets you get Blink and Charge fast enough to combat Blink + Immortals. Otherwise it's too slow and you're better off just getting Colossus. As for the Expansion, if the opponent attacks too early, you can cancel your Nexus, as why would they attack cross map with Immortal + Blink if they were expanding. I hope that answers your questions! | ||
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BoondockVeritas
United States191 Posts
 as for being constructive now so i don't get warned or anything.. in my nooby experience with this even if you are as aggressive as possible and get your money army going, if the enemy is turtling semi hard and won't budge while he makes the 5+ colossi, blink stalkers with an observer to snipe buildings has bought me time as most other protoss will sit near their expo thinking the main is safe enough. also some blink stalkers usually gives enough map control that you can expand freely enough since you will still need greater numbers to beat the turtler. just basic common sense stuff, but i thought i'd throw it in for fun with the other peoples ideas since i like cecils posts ^^ | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
Assuming that the opponent denies scouting and goes 3 gate into Dark Templar while cutting probes. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 31 2011 16:06 kineSiS- wrote: I'm not assured that a well done DT rush wouldn't destroy this build. Assuming that the opponent denies scouting and goes 3 gate into Dark Templar while cutting probes. The forge timing can always deviate, I should probably note of this in the OP. Also, if there's high suspicion of DT in my games, I actually get 2 cannons, and a sentry before I move out to FF the DT on the ramp to buy more time. Though like I did say in the OP, DT is going to be the biggest threat at the earlier points of mid-game. | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On July 31 2011 16:08 CecilSunkure wrote: The forge timing can always deviate, I should probably note of this in the OP. Also, if there's high suspicion of DT in my games, I actually get 2 cannons, and a sentry before I move out to FF the DT on the ramp to buy more time. Though like I did say in the OP, DT is going to be the biggest threat at the earlier points of mid-game. I realize that you did mention that, as I wouldn't comment without reading. That would ignorant and further remarks that I would make would probably be invalid. However, if reacting to Dark Templar highly depend on game sense, in essence, it could possibly be easy to dupe a lower level player (Masters/Diamond) by making it seem like he would either be 1, mirroring you or going for a 3 gate robo. I mean, it seems very risky as putting 2 cannons inside your main is a costly investment. Perhaps we could try this out? (Depending on your server) | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On July 31 2011 16:30 kineSiS- wrote: I realize that you did mention that, as I wouldn't comment without reading. That would ignorant and further remarks that I would make would probably be invalid. However, if reacting to Dark Templar highly depend on game sense, in essence, it could possibly be easy to dupe a lower level player (Masters/Diamond) by making it seem like he would either be 1, mirroring you or going for a 3 gate robo. I mean, it seems very risky as putting 2 cannons inside your main is a costly investment. Perhaps we could try this out? (Depending on your server) Yeah it would be pretty hard to get down the timing to survive from DT tech at first. I still die to it pretty often. Yeah we can play sometime. Shoot me a PM, I have a korean account and NA account. | ||
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Harmonized
57 Posts
 About the troubling amount of collosi i thought of an idea[Theorycrafting], What if you would drop another robo and a robo bay once on 3 bases, start chronoing out immortals + Warp prisms AND get the warp prism speed? So the idea is that you might have like 8 immortals 2 warp prisms when he has 7-8 collosi and you engage with half the immortals in your army and the other ones you drop on the collosi? Does this seem valid? Please argue :> | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
To answer the question about how to deal with turtling toss that goes heavy Colossus. The best way is to expand to the farthest base on your half of the map (assuming 4 player map). So that would be the main that is either close by air or close by ground depending on which is farther from your opponent and slightly closer to you. That way if he decides to push and attack, you can effectively base race (since you are spread out) by targeting his Nexus and as many supporting structures as possible. Once he decides to go for your other base, you pull back and surround with the superior gateway army that you have been warping in at your expo plus rallied blink stalkers. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On July 31 2011 10:09 MrRicewife wrote: ![[image loading]](http://www.moviesonline.ca/AdvHTML_Upload/twilight-2.jpg) Sick guide. I thought it was something else at first. Changed the title. What now? | ||
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Tyrek
12 Posts
Generally, I'm thinking about how this would combat the various robo builds, especially when both play defensive builds, such as 3 stalker rush into robo. At the standard engagement timings, the robo ball will have 1-2 colossus, possibly an immortal. How does the twilight build engage into this? I currently feel that if both players tech up, the robo player has a slight edge in overall army strength. | ||
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.Enigma
United Kingdom116 Posts
I do have some doubts about the 3 stalker opening though, which I'm hoping you can clear up. The opening is 13 gate > no zealot > non-chronoed stalker. How does this deal with 12 gate > zealot > chronoed stalker into standard 4gate if the zealot is rallied to your base at a reasonably short rush distance (~Xel-naga or shorter)? Although you may force the zealot back from your ramp, you won't be able to deny the proxy pylons at all (from my experience anyway), and provided your opponent doesn't suicide his first 2 stalkers he's in a strong spot since his WG will finish at least 10-15 seconds faster. I watched through your vid and I think you excecuted your build perfectly, whereas your opponent wasn't quite perfect. It feels like with optimal execution on both sides, the 3 stalker build should lose every time. Maybe I'm missing something, let me know if I am! | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
Oh and I'd like to add that I probably have more experience with more of the late game scenarios you might find with this build, so you can check that out in my guide too. A lot of the information in both guides also overlaps. I also want to disagree that robo into twilight is definitively better than a blink stalker opening. Although I think this is true 99% of the time, but if you make a read on a large map and go a very fast nexus with a blink build, you can wind up ahead of a robo/blink player. You do this by delaying your opponent's push with your superior blink stalker count so your econ advantage kicks in and you can get some immortals of your own out. An example of this is Huk vs MC in GSL on xelnaga fortress. Xelnaga fortress isn't even that big of a map. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
If you go for a safe blink build I think it's absolutely necessary to get a robo afterwards pretty quickly. Not only are you safe against DTs but you can also blink in and out of your opponents base and be annoying. If you've made sure your opponent is going colossi, you can start charge-tech and drop both the expo and later on the archives. I don't think building a forge is useful unless the game goes into even later stages. | ||
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JonnyLaw
United States3482 Posts
I played around with this build earlier and what are you doing against 1 base colossus? Do you expand, cut out the stalkers and get archon/chargelot and keep the stalker count where it was during the contain phase? Also, when are you getting templar archives for archons? Play it by ear? I ask because I lost a game earlier where my opponent pushed with 2 colossus. I had my natural up with a few chargelots, one archon and a decent little stalker ball. My zealots just ended up melting wayyyy to fast. More archons and good blink micro I think I can hold but my econ was just kicking in as he pushed. *edit sleepingdog makes a good point about the forge vs robo. if they go dt and you have an obs you can baserace and win easily | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On July 31 2011 23:05 sleepingdog wrote: The only thing I don't like about the structure of your build is the forge - I just don't see why you'd want a forge ever when going aggressive blink. Because even IF he goes for DTs, defending with cannons means you completely lose mapcontrol. For all you know he could double expand and play pure chargelot/archon off 15 gates. If you go for a safe blink build I think it's absolutely necessary to get a robo afterwards pretty quickly. Not only are you safe against DTs but you can also blink in and out of your opponents base and be annoying. If you've made sure your opponent is going colossi, you can start charge-tech and drop both the expo and later on the archives. I don't think building a forge is useful unless the game goes into even later stages. if he mirrors you, you can just get +1/+2 attack and then have a massive advantage, also if he double expands off of DT you can simply add a robo + Show Spoiler + as tyler did vs choya | ||
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