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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
On June 17 2011 12:04 Kinetik_Inferno wrote: I need to stop believing Hot_Bid when he posts stuff like this. I actually believed him for about ten seconds. God I am so gullible... Well his job could be being Mr.Esports, thus he can watch replays at work. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + :D | ||
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ETisME
12478 Posts
He noted his macro wasn't top of the world but given the game is ladder, I honestly don't think the opponent's macro would be that much better too. He also may have identify some flaws that he had spotted, like bad engagement location or something. whoever watched the replay would just point out "poor macro, poor scouting" etc and then based on this, they can just conclude "improve macro and you can just out produce and win". but there can be games where he managed to have better macro and still loses since he is not good at mutlitasking. again, people would just tell him to "look at mini map more often" etc also, giving advice for specific match doesn't really help all that much if the player cannot understand why he does it or when to carry out the advice. can't we just have a replay forum for people to help analysis the replay instead? | ||
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darthfoley
United States8003 Posts
meh | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On June 17 2011 12:28 ETisME wrote:+ Show Spoiler + my question is that sometimes the player isn't being specific to one match or two, but maybe 5 or 6. He noted his macro wasn't top of the world but given the game is ladder, I honestly don't think the opponent's macro would be that much better too. He also may have identify some flaws that he had spotted, like bad engagement location or something. whoever watched the replay would just point out "poor macro, poor scouting" etc and then based on this, they can just conclude "improve macro and you can just out produce and win". but there can be games where he managed to have better macro and still loses since he is not good at mutlitasking. again, people would just tell him to "look at mini map more often" etc also, giving advice for specific match doesn't really help all that much if the player cannot understand why he does it or when to carry out the advice. can't we just have a replay forum for people to help analysis the replay instead? I am pretty sure that is what the SC2 Strat forum is supposed to be. Specific advice is always the most useful. Saying macro better doesn't really help, but saying you missed SCVs at these points. You didn't maynard probes, or even as you suggest "Look at the mini-map" more, are all specific things you gain from replays. If you can't help in this manner, perhaps your help is not needed? | ||
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adelise
85 Posts
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manicshock
Canada741 Posts
On June 17 2011 10:01 Soluhwin wrote: See, courts can't jail people for stupidity because they don't have a definition or way to prove "stupidity", but TL has no court system.... I like this idea, one of TL's demandments should be 'don't be dumb'. I don't think that's possible. If you look at the General forum, you'd see why. I'm surprised at the quantity of stupid things posted. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
I do see the issue, since I only go home and watch teh rep around 20% or less of the time after the "I'm at work" comment. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15346 Posts
On June 17 2011 09:58 Wrongspeedy wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 16 2011 23:42 Saechiis wrote: When you're done being victimized, take a look at the actual strategy forums and make a rough estimation of how many posts "from work, can't watch the replay" are helping people out. I'm a positive chap so I'm going to say 1%, but some would argue that they're of no value at all. Explain to me how you can figure out someone's troubles in a matchup without watching his replays? Explain to me how it's useful when someone dies to a roach rush and you give generic advice of being agressive in TvZ and to make marines, since you haven't seen what actually happened ingame. I have no problem with how they are trying to run this Forum. The only thing I feel victimized about is that someone can clearly say "well I'm not good at using infestors, so I don't use them herp derp, can you help me mass mutas better?" How is it not good advice to tell that person, "Well hey buddy, if you practice working with infestors your overall gameplay will improve?". I didn't need a replay to tell that to someone, but I don't care about getting a warning for that because I understand what their (Zatic and TL's) point is. But honestly what high level player (pro) has time to come onto these forums watch the replays of extremely low level play and then comment on how that person can get better. Thats my only problem with this, the people they want to post still cannot do so without breaking the rules they want to enforce. I understand they want fewers posts and more information, thats why I generally do not post in this part of the forum. I also do not comment on TvZ's because I do not play T or Z. My point still remains that you can help someone improve by reading what they have to say, sure you have a much better understanding if you watch the replay, but I also seriously doubt the kind of people they want posting, are the people taking time to watch Gold< replays. I totally agree that this part of the forum would be much better with fewer OP's and fewer posts in each OP. But just because I don't 100% agree with this doesn't mean I'm spamming shit posts all over the Strategy forum. I think I'm allowed to be a little butt hurt when I post less than once a month in the Strategy forum, and I have something constructive and NOT rude to say, and I can still get warned. Its not a big deal to me, just means I will visit Strategy even less than I did before. And never post. I have addressed this here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9787533 If you don't have the time to watch a replay don't bother posting. It's just very disrespectful. I don't know what else to say. | ||
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tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
My point is, if he has screwed the game in the first 5 min (by not making enough workers, doing a failed cheese, or something like that), can i post if i only watched the game for the first 9 minutes? Normally i just watch the whole thing but seeing these things i mention above is just painful to watch because most of the games last at least 30 minutes and is just some turtling being in a huge disadvantage and only delaying the inevitable. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15346 Posts
On June 17 2011 16:34 Battle wrote: I would like to know if watching part of a replay is in this category too. Normally the lowest level players (that are the ones posting the [H] in most cases) dont do a correct Build Order and make too few workers (I have seen people expanding with zerg at min 12 or so). My point is, if he has screwed the game in the first 5 min (by not making enough workers, doing a failed cheese, or something like that), can i post if i only watched the game for the first 9 minutes? Normally i just watch the whole thing but seeing these things i mention above is just painful to watch because most of the games last at least 30 minutes and is just some turtling being in a huge disadvantage and only delaying the inevitable. If the guy is already vrey behind after 10 minutes and that is what caused him to lose the game then obviously that's what you should tell them. Even if they ask about the late game army composition they lost to. Also see my answer here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9787533 | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On June 17 2011 16:26 tokicheese wrote: I don't like the broad blanket statement that every post that includes "I'm at work" means it's a useless temp bannable post. Obviously some are useless but some posts where people watch the replay is useless too... I think you should be judged on the merit of the post as opposed to where the poster is. After all what if they just don't say they are at work and post stupid shit? Are they now better than someone who is at work? Well, the rule is simple. Don't post "I am at work", and if your post is valid you won't get banned. The same rule applies when you post. "I will probably get banned for this", even when you post something completely valid after that you will get banned. Just follow the rules. Do not write "I am at work" and "I will probably get banned for this". Easy to follow. There isn't a rule that you have to watch the replay before you post. But there is a rule that say that you will get banned for: 1) If you give incorrect advice, you will be SHOT DOWN. If you aren't sure whether or not you should be giving advice, then don't. That doesn't mean don't give advice if you're not masters. But anyone (masters included) giving advice better be pretty damn sure of their advice before they give it. 2) If you give unhelpful advice, you will be BANNED. The "I am at work" phrase was invented by people in an attempt to avoid above bans. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15346 Posts
On June 17 2011 16:39 Koshi wrote: Well, the rule is simple. Don't post "I am at work", and if your post is valid you won't get banned. The same rule applies when you post. "I will probably get banned for this", even when you post something completely valid after that you will get banned. Just follow the rules. Do not write "I am at work" and "I will probably get banned for this". Easy to follow. There isn't a rule that you have to watch the replay before you post. But there is a rule that say that you will get banned for: 1) If you give incorrect advice, you will be SHOT DOWN. If you aren't sure whether or not you should be giving advice, then don't. That doesn't mean don't give advice if you're not masters. But anyone (masters included) giving advice better be pretty damn sure of their advice before they give it. 2) If you give unhelpful advice, you will be BANNED. The "I am at work" phrase was invented by people in an attempt to avoid above bans. Erm, this isn't what the point of this thread is. There very much is a rule that you have to watch the replay before you post. Reread the Strategy forum guidelines. And that is what this thread is about, people using excuses to not follow the guidelines. Yes, they are very easy to follow: Either watch the replay or don't post. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
<3 | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On June 17 2011 09:58 Wrongspeedy wrote: I have no problem with how they are trying to run this Forum. The only thing I feel victimized about is that someone can clearly say "well I'm not good at using infestors, so I don't use them herp derp, can you help me mass mutas better?" How is it not good advice to tell that person, "Well hey buddy, if you practice working with infestors your overall gameplay will improve?". Truth is not necessarily the same as good advice. "Practice working with infestors" - how? In what matchups and under what circumstances? As part of what build? Isn't it likely that when Mr Herp Derp says he's not good at using infestors, he to a large extent means - even if he's not aware of this himself - that he doesn't know when to employ them or how to work them into his play at appropriate times or how to structure his builds around affording them without dying? Your advice to 'practice working with them' helps him not in the slightest. Maybe, in the replay, he did just need to mass mutas better. Maybe he was three mutas and a bit of micro away from a perfect situational response, and you're telling him to switch to infestors. I know that was an off-the-cuff example you tossed out - but that's exactly the point: threads are becoming clogged with generic, offhand 'good' advice. It's ridiculous how many times I've seen someone ask "In this replay I opened A and he responded with B - how could I have handled that better?", and someone replies "Against Zerg I like to open C harrass into D and E with a fast third. I win a lot with that." It's tantamount to "I like pie." But honestly what high level player (pro) has time to come onto these forums watch the replays of extremely low level play and then comment on how that person can get better. Which is why the rules for posting [H] and [L] threads are as strict as they are. The strategy forum is not supposed to be a place for every Mr Bronze and Mrs Silver to post a replay along with "I lost. Why?" and expect to have Thorzain pick it apart on 'Normal' speed, or Ret to dip in and say "Use moar infestorz". There is an astounding amount of self-help material out there in the form of coaching VODs, guides to analysing replays, build orders, techniques for improving - if the forum is working, [L] threads should be sufficiently rare that there will be enough qualified people with time to watch them. And they don't have to be pros to qualify. [H] threads should, for the same reason, be worth watching. They should be showcasing a genuinely problematic situation, the solution to which will be of broad interest. My point still remains that you can help someone improve by reading what they have to say, sure you have a much better understanding if you watch the replay, but I also seriously doubt the kind of people they want posting, are the people taking time to watch Gold< replays. As others have tried to explain, if you go by what someone says, the pertinence of your advice is limited by their ability to analyze what happened rather than yours. Besides, there are plenty of players whose grasp of the game exceeds their current ability to put it into practice. They're the ones in (say) gold-diamond who aren't asking for help, and they are often perfectly capable of identifying problems in a gold-level replay and giving solid advice. I think I'm allowed to be a little butt hurt when I post less than once a month in the Strategy forum, and I have something constructive and NOT rude to say, and I can still get warned. Its not a big deal to me, just means I will visit Strategy even less than I did before. And never post. Well - and there's no polite way to ask this - honestly how much of a loss do you estimate that to be? One or two blue posts aside, I can't think of one time I've seen a post from someone who didn't watch the replay that was as useful as another in the thread from someone who did. | ||
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
Why can't people learn to read? Watch the reply and then reply, it's in the forum guidelines already so it shouldn't need to be said again! Having said that, im at work right now, could you post a replay of you analysing some threads with the 'im at work' reply so we can analyse your banning skills and tell you where your going wrong, i'll be sure to check them out when i get home + Show Spoiler + I+ Show Spoiler + LOVE+ Show Spoiler + YOU+ Show Spoiler + ZATIC!+ Show Spoiler + <3 ^^ Yes i know the you hate the spoilers within spoilers  | ||
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zatic
Zurich15346 Posts
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
Like if the OP has trouble in a matchup, he describes what he does and what he has trouble with, and he maybe links a few replays. Is it not alright to suggest a build to him, or to discuss various tacticts without watching the replay first? I dont need to watch a bronze level TvT where they stay on one base for 20mins to be able to give advice or suggest builds. Sure if what i say is stupid, and if i'm making assumptions without watching the replay then just ban me, but sometimes i just wanna give my constructive advice without having to sit through whatever replay the OP linked. Like if someones has trouble in TvP and he writes about his strategy and his problems, and then he links a replay. But often the replay is totally useless because it shows one single game where he might've lost because of micro, or because he forgot stim, or whatever. A lot of the time the replay seems totally useless and it's a waste of time to watch it. How is it not ok to just go "i cant watch the replay but check out this strat, or check out this video..." General good advice is the best advice, unless the OP is asking about a particular game i dont think we can really use a single game for anything, i know i cant. Why cant you just judge on the content, and not whether or not the poster is at work or not? I feel like not posting at all in the strategy forum anymore, so many rules to follow. I get that you have to get rid of the garbage, but i feel like TL is overdoing it with all the rules. | ||
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