EPTI'm at work ... - Page 7
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PrinceVegeta
United States118 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On June 17 2011 20:30 Deadlyfish wrote: Well the guy watching the replay will probably be able to give better advice, most of the time. Exactly. So if you're not prepared to watch the replay, why not just let those who are get on with it? Who loses out? Try to understand: [H] and [L] threads are not about you. The important things are that: 1. The person asking for help gets really good, targeted help as a reward for the effort they put into the OP 2. Anyone reading the thread gets a really clear, crisp idea of what's going on and what the problems and solutions are, so that they can apply both the analysis and corrections to their own play, and over time become better at analyzing their own play. On no level is it important that you or I get to feel good just for pitching in. I dont get how you can expect semi pros/master level people to watch a bunch of silver level replays to be able to give the player some advice. I dealt with that already. I don't expect them to because they don't need to: 1. There shouldn't be that many [L] threads in the first place because of the wealth of existing support for low level players. 2. There are gold - diamond players perfectly capable of assisting others at around the same level. So let's lay to rest the idea that anyone is making unreasonable demands of busy pro players. Going "hey guys i cant figure out ZvZ so heres a 12 min game of a ZvZ i played in platinum last night" is about the most useless thing ever. And i dont think that some helpful general ZvZ advice would hurt him, and it certainly wouldnt justify a ban/warning just because the guy didnt take the time to watch your game. Every example OP you've provided to which you think it would be appropriate to respond your way has itself violated the guidelines for posting a thread in the strategy forum. And you cant just dismiss all advice not based on a replay as bad. I don't need to. What I'm saying is that a lot of it is bad (empirically) and none of the rest of it will be as good as the advice offered by the one or two guys who take the time to watch. So why not just let them do the posting? | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On June 17 2011 22:14 Nightfly wrote: Perhaps read some posts in the thread then, cause people have adequately explained that position. It's your fault for not understanding it. Oh I see, so your made-up terrible response is worse than your other made-up response? Case closed. If the poster was looking for general advice in the first place, he would go look for general advice. If he posts replays, clearly he's looking for specific advice. Asking how good his macro is is not helpful. And even if it was the case that *some* of the time you miss a good response because of this rule, you remove so much crap that it's worth it. It's like sending 99 criminals to jail at the cost of 1 innocent instead of doing absolutely nothing. It's not my fault for not understanding it, it's their fault for being irrational since I have read their reasons and they aren't good enough to warrant the stance. Of course the responses are made up, you want me to scour the forums for real examples to prove an obvious point? I think not. It seems to me that you haven't been at these forums long because your argument isn't close to reality. Everyone who asks a question, no matter how general, posts replays because if they don't 2 mods and 20 people come in and whine hardcore at how bad the OP is for not supplying replays, even though replays has nothing to do with the question at hand (THIS is something the forum could get fixed instead of banning useful advice just because of where the advice was posted from). Your second argument is even worse. There's no need to send anyone innocent to jail since there are MODS. It's not a few bots which need specific rules to decide which people to ban, it's moderators who should, since they are moderators and that's their job, take the time to go on a case by case basis. Saying "anyone posting from work will be warned or banned" sounds lazy to me. Better to say "People who post irrelevant advice which isn't applicable to the question will be warned/banned". | ||
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DuckS
United States845 Posts
But yea, straightforward stuff here. Was funny to see it be the start of a post - you could expect bad, out of context advice. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
I'am at work/can't watch replay = TL;DR | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On June 17 2011 22:50 Umpteen wrote: Exactly. So if you're not prepared to watch the replay, why not just let those who are get on with it? Who loses out? Try to understand: [H] and [L] threads are not about you. The important things are that: 1. The person asking for help gets really good, targeted help as a reward for the effort they put into the OP 2. Anyone reading the thread gets a really clear, crisp idea of what's going on and what the problems and solutions are, so that they can apply both the analysis and corrections to their own play, and over time become better at analyzing their own play. On no level is it important that you or I get to feel good just for pitching in. I dealt with that already. I don't expect them to because they don't need to: 1. There shouldn't be that many [L] threads in the first place because of the wealth of existing support for low level players. 2. There are gold - diamond players perfectly capable of assisting others at around the same level. So let's lay to rest the idea that anyone is making unreasonable demands of busy pro players. Every example OP you've provided to which you think it would be appropriate to respond your way has itself violated the guidelines for posting a thread in the strategy forum. I don't need to. What I'm saying is that a lot of it is bad (empirically) and none of the rest of it will be as good as the advice offered by the one or two guys who take the time to watch. So why not just let them do the posting? When you make a thread you are asking people to help you, and people posting in your thread are helping you, for free. So when people get banned for just trying to help out then it's a problem. If it was my thread i'd be happy just to receive any help, even if it was just from some guy on his lunch break who suggested that i try out this new build or whatever. It just seems really strange to me that when i try to honestly help out someone by suggesting a build/strategy/video/guide/whatever i get banned. I want to try and help out, but i might not have the time or access to sit down and watch a replay. If the OP doesnt want help unless you've watched his replays then he should say that. I cant really give you a perfect example, but i'll try. OP says he has trouble with TvP, explains his problem and usual builds and links a few replays. Being excellent at TvP i want to try and help, but i cant really watch a replay right now, so i suggest some new build and maybe link him a guide of that build or something. Then i get banned/warned. I dont think that's fair. I just feel like you're making the strategy forum difficult to post in, and i dont feel it's helping the quality, at all. But i guess some people might want a different kind of forum and that's fine, it's just my opinion  | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On June 17 2011 23:37 Deadlyfish wrote: When you make a thread you are asking people to help you, and people posting in your thread are helping you, for free. So when people get banned for just trying to help out then it's a problem. If it was my thread i'd be happy just to receive any help, even if it was just from some guy on his lunch break who suggested that i try out this new build or whatever. It just seems really strange to me that when i try to honestly help out someone by suggesting a build/strategy/video/guide/whatever i get banned. I want to try and help out, but i might not have the time or access to sit down and watch a replay. If the OP doesnt want help unless you've watched his replays then he should say that. I cant really give you a perfect example, but i'll try. OP says he has trouble with TvP, explains his problem and usual builds and links a few replays. Being excellent at TvP i want to try and help, but i cant really watch a replay right now, so i suggest some new build and maybe link him a guide of that build or something. Then i get banned/warned. I dont think that's fair. I just feel like you're making the strategy forum difficult to post in, and i dont feel it's helping the quality, at all. But i guess some people might want a different kind of forum and that's fine, it's just my opinion Exactly. It feels like the mods are of the opinion that the internetz aren't big enough for non-perfect advice, when really, the whole forum is non-perfect advice. People don't ask questions here and expect #1 grandmaster to come, watch 50 of their replays and give them the ultimate advice, the want viewpoints from the community. If they wanted perfect advice, they would buy coaching, not go to team liquids forum. If you make a thread and someone gives advice which you feel isn't all that relevant, you can just: 1. Skip over the post. 2. Answer the post with a nice "Thx for your input, unfortunately I don't feel it's relevant to my problem". No need to go with: 3. Berate the person for giving you free advice just because it wasn't the exact advice you were looking for. | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 17 2011 23:42 Tobberoth wrote: Exactly. It feels like the mods are of the opinion that the internetz aren't big enough for non-perfect advice, when really, the whole forum is non-perfect advice. People don't ask questions here and expect #1 grandmaster to come, watch 50 of their replays and give them the ultimate advice, the want viewpoints from the community. If they wanted perfect advice, they would buy coaching, not go to team liquids forum. If you make a thread and someone gives advice which you feel isn't all that relevant, you can just: 1. Skip over the post. 2. Answer the post with a nice "Thx for your input, unfortunately I don't feel it's relevant to my problem". No need to go with: 3. Berate the person for giving you free advice just because it wasn't the exact advice you were looking for. I dont think the issue is about perfect vs nonperfect advice at all. I'ts about shitty vs usefull advice. If you don't watch the replay in a H thread and post "free advice" then your spamming. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On June 18 2011 00:00 clickrush wrote: I dont think the issue is about perfect vs nonperfect advice at all. I'ts about shitty vs usefull advice. If you don't watch the replay in a H thread and post "free advice" then your spamming. That doesn't have to be the case. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't get warned or banned if they spam ridiculous advice, but I'm arguing that it's on a case by case basis. Just because a thread has replays in it doesn't mean the question can only be answered by knowing exactly what happened in that very game (unless the OP obviously asks for such a specific answer). It's all about how the OP and the answer is formulated. It can be useless, it can be useful... but you don't know that from such a simple statement as "he didn't watch the replay". | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On June 18 2011 00:02 Tobberoth wrote: That doesn't have to be the case. I'm not arguing that people shouldn't get warned or banned if they spam ridiculous advice, but I'm arguing that it's on a case by case basis. Just because a thread has replays in it doesn't mean the question can only be answered by knowing exactly what happened in that very game (unless the OP obviously asks for such a specific answer). It's all about how the OP and the answer is formulated. It can be useless, it can be useful... but you don't know that from such a simple statement as "he didn't watch the replay". Yes you do. There can be so many factors in a game that make general advice useless. And even if your advice is good (by pure accident btw) then it would have been better if you watched the replay anyways. | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On June 17 2011 19:25 Psychobabas wrote: I think that the sense of community and wanting to contribute should be above "posting a proper post". Posting from work could mean that he/she is on his lunchbreak. Is that really such a big problem? No, it shouldn't. If you want to say something but are too lazy to watch the replay or can't watch the replay, as much better players than ourselves have ALL recanted, you aren't actually helping. I don't thikn they should have to apologize to you for censoring posts in a strategy forum that don't contain the slightest bit of strategy. | ||
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kochujang
Germany1226 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
On June 16 2011 20:08 zatic wrote: So please. Don't operate TL when under the influence Don't you dare drag alcohol into this T.T | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On June 17 2011 23:42 Tobberoth wrote: If you make a thread and someone gives advice which you feel isn't all that relevant, you can just: 1. Skip over the post. 2. Answer the post with a nice "Thx for your input, unfortunately I don't feel it's relevant to my problem". And he knows what's good, relevant advice and what's not because...? He played the game, and knows what's in the replay, maybe? So I guess everyone reading the thread should watch the replay in order to filter the responses from people who didn't watch the replay. | ||
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ePBuckets
Canada207 Posts
doesn't liquid tyler have a vodka sponsor? lol. | ||
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Deja Thoris
South Africa646 Posts
On June 17 2011 23:37 Deadlyfish wrote: When you make a thread you are asking people to help you, and people posting in your thread are helping you, for free. So when people get banned for just trying to help out then it's a problem. If it was my thread i'd be happy just to receive any help, even if it was just from some guy on his lunch break who suggested that i try out this new build or whatever. It just seems really strange to me that when i try to honestly help out someone by suggesting a build/strategy/video/guide/whatever i get banned. I want to try and help out, but i might not have the time or access to sit down and watch a replay. If the OP doesnt want help unless you've watched his replays then he should say that. I just feel like you're making the strategy forum difficult to post in, and i dont feel it's helping the quality, at all. But i guess some people might want a different kind of forum and that's fine, it's just my opinion Zatic is stating the TL stance. That stance is that the minimum hurdle you should cross when helping someone is watching the replay that they posted. This is esp important at or around gold to diamond league because there are normally 3/4 pointers that can directly help a person based on their performance in the replays. Linking the lastest Jesus build by a professional that has 250 apm and gosu gamesense isn't necesarily helpful. Nor is the usual "probes 'n pylons" or "scout" advice. If you want to help but don't have the time or access then leave it to those that do. Don't take the "I'm posting from work" thing too literally. What he means is don't hide behind silly excuses because you don't want to do the homework to help properly (and by properly I mean to the standards TL decreed) Basically, the law has been laid down. Comply or get slapped about with a big stick. | ||
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ChitinMan
United States49 Posts
2) If you respond to a thread without watching the replay, you are only able to give advice based on what the OP has stated, and a good portion of the time they're asking the wrong things. "How do I split my marines while slow pushing with bunkers, tanks, and turrets?" Asks Mr. Bronze league, when in reality he was supply blocked for 30 seconds, had 5k/3k saved up, and was 90 supply lower than his opponent. If you give a "gosu patrol split your marines bro, but I'm at work otherwise I'd watch the replay" response, you are not at all helping. Your analysis is limited by the OP's analysis of his replay, and if you're coming here for advice, odds are your analyzing skills aren't up to par. So you've got two options, either watch the replay and give the OP helpful, specific advice, or just don't use these boards. We all want to be a part of this community, but it has standards. Qualify for these standards, or leave. You won't be missed. | ||
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Zero RDS
Canada104 Posts
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Zero RDS
Canada104 Posts
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