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nonethewiser
United States53 Posts
To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Not questioning it, but it's not a preference. I'd rather spend my early gas on other, more robust tech, since I'm getting zealots early anyway to hold the contain longer. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:50 FiWiFaKi wrote: To those questioning the 3 gate blink, you have to realise how fine and what kind of work of art that build is. Perfect time for any roach pressure bling plays, mutas, nyduses, drops. Experiment with it please, if you lose to an all-in you will see where you can fix your mistakes. If you got VR or DT there is potential to lose to roach drops, hydra drops, banrling busts. 3 gate blink is perfect against any build. Ok, just out of curiosity: do you think Zerg has a real chance of coming back once you get the block up? (assuming P doesn't screw up) even if you go roach/ling with roachspeed (which looks like an extreme investment for a 1basing zerg), you say you're working on countering it, so: is there a build that is at least decent (and maybe not all-in) for a zerg, to break this? | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:19 galivet wrote: It's only a three-page thread. Couldn't you read at least through the second page before posting? You need to chill a bit man. Yes patrolling drone has been mentioned--but what is the final verdict? Theoretically this will stop the build, but practically it's still working at the highest level. Now can you explain that to me please? | ||
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stink123
United States241 Posts
On May 28 2011 04:25 nonethewiser wrote: The point you guys are missing is that the build causes so much disruption in the Zerg's play (namely, it basically prevents developing the second hatch at all) that, even if the Zerg does break the contain, it is worth it economically, meaning that the Zerg player now has to both break the contain and counter (likely against a cannoned natural) in order to even the playing field. The protoss is 600 minerals (3x pylon, 1 forge, 1 cannon)behind. In the worst case zerg cancels a hatchery losing 75 minerals, and maybe a drone. Then the zerg proceeds to drone 100% safe to whatever drone number he needs, and then busts down. For a baneling bust, he can do 22 drones and be fine. The second hatch is late, yes, but so is protoss gateway/cyber core timing. Zerg has various 1 base timing attacks that he can exploit, not to mention his overlords can scout whether protoss is expanding or not. After he destroys the pylon + cannon, it becomes a normal game, with the zerg performing a timing attack while expanding behind it. protoss is on 1 base, behind in tech and minerals. If the zerg doesn't commit and just pressures the protoss, the zerg will be safe barring any map features (like Kulas Ravine) | ||
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gejfsyd
Poland156 Posts
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On May 28 2011 06:37 gejfsyd wrote: Why are people comiting so much time and energy to create cheese builds? Why cant they create 1 normal, refined, macro strategy? I just dont get it. Cheeses will give you some fast wins until ppl will get better and know how to react. In that case, they can just block their ramp with a patroling drone. Its not that hard and after that you will be far behind. because it's a nice wrinkle you can throw into your play from time to time? | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On May 28 2011 07:21 zeehar wrote: because it's a nice wrinkle you can throw into your play from time to time? also because they have to be fleshed out so that the macro builds can work around them | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
On May 28 2011 06:20 Big J wrote: Ok, just out of curiosity: do you think Zerg has a real chance of coming back once you get the block up? (assuming P doesn't screw up) even if you go roach/ling with roachspeed (which looks like an extreme investment for a 1basing zerg), you say you're working on countering it, so: is there a build that is at least decent (and maybe not all-in) for a zerg, to break this? The builds I feel that work against this are: Go for 14 gas 14 pool into 19 roach warden, make 3-4 roaches to break the wall and just expand to your natural at approx 24 drones. Keeping droning and getting your upgrades, and in my opinion something like 32-35 drones is ideal, then make a good balance of roach + ling, I'm not exactly sure what the right number would be but I feel roach heavy does the best with a 1 to 1 ratio. Just make sure you have the speed for both units. As for the other build I haven't played vs very much, I think just two games actually, was a ling + infestor with lots of spine crawlers and a late base. A good fungal gives your lings ample time to surround and prevent me from retreating. And if you get a fungal even on a quarter of my units I need to commit or else Ill lose a quarter of my army for free. Getting 5-6 spine crawlers is really good to as placing them on your ramp when youre one base makes it pretty hard to attack into, especially consideringif I move up and you fungal my units my stalkers will die very quickly to such crazy DPS. But like I said I don't have too much experience against this build but it seems extremely powerful. | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
So that makes me like 6-1 with this build haha. Thanks for the great post  | ||
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
I played a lot of cheese games through with a GM zerg (some tQ guy that I can't remember lol...) and his standard response is nydus with ling hydra. He doesnt even try to go for an inbase nydus but rather outside the natural, so there isn't any stopping it. The push is extremely strong and would absolutely gank a no-sentry composition  a second nydus is made in base while attacking, which only makes things worse, and removes the viability of cannons unless you are able to defend the front while taking out the inbase nydus.The only 100% safe follow up to a cannon contain is to scout a lot using the probe trick to get past your pylon block to see his lair timing to deduce how he plans to bust out of his wall. If he has no lair then just build a bunch more cannons outside his main to keep him in longer, since he is obv trying a baneling or roach bust. Otherwise, do a gas heavy gateway expand like normal. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
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Iggnite
Canada288 Posts
On May 28 2011 09:58 CCalms wrote: Hey kiwi, CCalms here, back to shoot down another build of yours I played a lot of cheese games through with a GM zerg (some tQ guy that I can't remember lol...) and his standard response is nydus with ling hydra. He doesnt even try to go for an inbase nydus but rather outside the natural, so there isn't any stopping it. The push is extremely strong and would absolutely gank a no-sentry composition a second nydus is made in base while attacking, which only makes things worse, and removes the viability of cannons unless you are able to defend the front while taking out the inbase nydus.The only 100% safe follow up to a cannon contain is to scout a lot using the probe trick to get past your pylon block to see his lair timing to deduce how he plans to bust out of his wall. If he has no lair then just build a bunch more cannons outside his main to keep him in longer, since he is obv trying a baneling or roach bust. Otherwise, do a gas heavy gateway expand like normal. Kid thinks he's gosu or something | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9859 Posts
I've played CCalms several times and he's a VERY good player so please don't act like that towards him. And to answer his post, I have faced this before, well just a hydra nydus, and personally I didn't feel it was that strong, it however it was a right near my ramp nydus of roach + hydra not the ling version and I won that game quite easily. I don't want to make any conclusions, as obviously if he's losing to it that hard then there is some weakness. Uhm I'd prefer to see a replay because I'm not sure if you're timing was perfect etc, but I can see it be potentially powerful, keeping that in mind, hydras do take a while to get, and I'm pretty sure Ill have WG out and ready. | ||
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
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Tendou
United States54 Posts
On May 28 2011 06:30 stink123 wrote: The protoss is 600 minerals (3x pylon, 1 forge, 1 cannon)behind. In the worst case zerg cancels a hatchery losing 75 minerals, and maybe a drone. Then the zerg proceeds to drone 100% safe to whatever drone number he needs, and then busts down. For a baneling bust, he can do 22 drones and be fine. The second hatch is late, yes, but so is protoss gateway/cyber core timing. Zerg has various 1 base timing attacks that he can exploit, not to mention his overlords can scout whether protoss is expanding or not. After he destroys the pylon + cannon, it becomes a normal game, with the zerg performing a timing attack while expanding behind it. protoss is on 1 base, behind in tech and minerals. If the zerg doesn't commit and just pressures the protoss, the zerg will be safe barring any map features (like Kulas Ravine) hmm...Upon reading, I wonder...What happens if the Zerg player is more persistent with trying to expand to other parts of the map? I do a 15 hatch 15 pool so my drone is already out. Yes, I do know that the Protoss player should be very persistent on scouting and denying my hatch. However, the goal is exactly to have the player waste minerals on a pylon+canceling a cannon (around 140 minerals wasted each time) so it can delay the eventual blink push while I can tech a bit farther. I mean, if I have my hatch down safely and the creep blocks his cannon placement, that's cool but is a side aim compared to what I am truly going for. Cancel the hatch (75 mins wasted) and go again somewhere else as I might buy time for upgrades for my unit of choice. iono...just a thought. I know for sure my opponent can't attack with units so just having the Protoss player waste minerals is the least I could do. If I do get my hatch down for some odd reason, haha macro. Break down pylon wall. Mass transfer my excess drones from my main. Spines, spores, queen(s) for defense. Then again, I am a 900 Diamond Zerg and I have personally faced this type of wall-off only once or twice a long time ago. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 28 2011 16:07 Tendou wrote: hmm...Upon reading, I wonder...What happens if the Zerg player is more persistent with trying to expand to other parts of the map? I do a 15 hatch 15 pool so my drone is already out. Yes, I do know that the Protoss player should be very persistent on scouting and denying my hatch. However, the goal is exactly to have the player waste minerals on a pylon+canceling a cannon (around 140 minerals wasted each time) so it can delay the eventual blink push while I can tech a bit farther. I mean, if I have my hatch down safely and the creep blocks his cannon placement, that's cool but is a side aim compared to what I am truly going for. Cancel the hatch (75 mins wasted) and go again somewhere else as I might buy time for upgrades for my unit of choice. iono...just a thought. I know for sure my opponent can't attack with units so just having the Protoss player waste minerals is the least I could do. If I do get my hatch down for some odd reason, haha macro. Break down pylon wall. Mass transfer my excess drones from my main. Spines, spores, queen(s) for defense. Then again, I am a 900 Diamond Zerg and I have personally faced this type of wall-off only once or twice a long time ago. you don't have any vision around your hatch if you have no OL there, so just building somewhere else means you have no clue if P sees it and canons it, or not. (if he builds the canon/s right on time to finish with your hatch, you cannot cancel but your hatch will go down) and even if you get it up, you are facing the most mobile Protoss army there is and you have to defend 2far apart bases, as you didn't take your natural, so static defenses are bad because he will just attack your main instead, and static D at both bases puts you behind. Im not sure if you can have lairtech (speedroach, infestor) to deal with the blink follow up, if you go for the expansion and Im not sure if pure speedling beats blink stalkers if the Protoss is good, especially as you think about "droning" which cuts in your speedling numbers. | ||
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grimmjowxbcx
79 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On May 27 2011 21:36 Exley wrote: What is an L-shaped wall? That shouldn't change the fact that you can get three drones on the middle pylon... or 2 middle pylons in your case? I will be able to make pictures in a couple days when I have an sc2 computer again. I regret the delay. :\ The picture you linked at the reddit article is exactly what I don't do, for exactly that reason. An L-wall has a corner and two legs... not 2 middle pylons. I'm not even sure what that means. xD People might be confused because it doesn't look like a tight wall. Imagine the way a terran walls the bottom of their ramp with a depot and rax. The ends of the wall where it meets the sides of the ramp looks passable, but it's not. And you know the part where where the rax overlaps with the depot? That's where the corner pylon goes. Pictures soon hopefully. On the topic of best practices for pylon/cannon walling: I don't know why people make all 3 pylons at once. Just make one or two, and then if they bring drones you can complete the wall. This way they have less information to react to, and you can complete the wall with a cannon (in my version) if they didn't try to break it down. In the corner position, the cannon can only be hit by 1 melee unit at a time, so it saved you 100 minerals and is essentially as safe. If they try to attack your pylons with drones, you can attack one of the drones from across the wall with your probe (over the corner of the pylon), forcing them to have 3 drones there, and to micro them, slowing their damage to your pylon. | ||
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hocash
United States82 Posts
Seems like Zerg is so far behind when this happens that there's really nothing to do but make a bunch of stuff and go kill them. | ||
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